Registered: Jun 2002
Location: By the toilet.
Posts: 174

Why kill Edge?

That's got to be the dumbest thing Hanspring's done. No, wait.. the Treo 90 is the dumbest thing Handspring's done. Killing the Edge is a close second.

Want a keyboard? Why not both? There's this really 3rd party nice flipping keyboard that doubles as a screen protector (i forgot its name, but it's reviewed right here in Visorcentral.com).

What Handspring can do is actually remake a slightly smaller version of the Edge with a color screen (don't change any other specs-i don't care) and a flip cover with a keyboard built in!

There! Problem solved - color lightweight device with both a decent usable keyboard and graffiti. Call THAT the Treo 90, and I might just buy one.



I hate dreams. It makes the reality worse than it seems after that.

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Nebraska- the Good life
Posts: 695

The Sony T615 (an older unit) is 2.83" x 4.65" x 0.50" and 4.9 oz.

The Handspring Visor Edge is 3.1" x 4.7" x .44" and 4.8 oz.

Except for Handspring's slight edge on thinness (forgive the pun), the Sony is a similar-sized unit that also offers a hi-res color screen, Memory Stick support, a jog dial, and the full suite of Sony applications.

Until the most recent waves of price drops, the two units were priced pretty competetively. The prices on the B&W Sonys are even closer.

Now- as a person off the street, which unit will I buy? Neither has a whole ton of accessories available- but I probably neither know this nor really care. We may argue that color is not really that useful, but a.) it sure makes B&W units look primative in a side to side comparison, and b.) as a color user, I HATE going back to B&W on my wife's or kid's Visors!

Question- should Handspring continue to fight head to head with Sony, a huge company with deep pockets, or should it create its own battleground?

While I am not a huge fan of the Treo 90, I think they are trying to move in a useful direction by going with products that are unique and distinctive.

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Do what you can, with what you have, where you are at!

Registered: Jun 2002
Location: By the toilet.
Posts: 174

quote:

---

Originally posted by Madkins007

While I am not a huge fan of the Treo 90, I think they are trying to move in a useful direction by going with products that are unique and distinctive.

---

..and drop almost all of its original loyal customers.

Granted, there will be some NEW market, like those who just want to get a personal organizer and keep track of addresses, schedules etc. etc.* without having to relearn their handwriting (yes, RELEARN - I keep writing graffiti on paper). Or maybe they are Hobbits, Lilliputians or Santa's Elfs that liked how the keyboard fit their hands. But - don't you think that one of those 512K or 2MB Personal Organisers suit them better if they are not using it any further? I mean, 16MB is quite a waste for storing addresses & phone numbers. And the asking price of US$299 is a bit high for it.

You must be asking why I'm being so hard on Handspring:

1) I just bought a Pro and every dealer I know of started running away from selling Springboards.

2) HS said they'll continue supporting Springboards, but seeing how the dealers aren't cooperating, will HS eventually drop it completely?

3) I liked the Edge, it seems the only thing that really competes with the Sonys in terms of looks and wow-factor, only let down by memory. Just upgrade it a bit it'll be fine. But then it was killed. (You may drop anything off the inventory, Handspring, but why the Edge name? Improve it a little!)

4) Seems like every Visor with the Springboard will get killed soon. To be replaced by somethign smaller but also with smaller screens.

5)Handspring may soon one day deny the existance of the bulky Springboard.

6) With the Treo, why does it still have the stylus???? As I can imagine it, when I poke around the menus with the stylus, then I'd drop the stylus to start typing (the backspace key will be used mostly). Might as well disregard the stylus completely and poke around with my fingertip.

In the end, I can only complain about what I dislike but can't do anything much about it can I? But I'll sit and wait until it's time to upgrade my Visor (which won't be anytime soon, I'm stuck with it for a loooooong time) then I'd get another brand. Bye, Handspring. It's been nice knowing you.



* This is what the salespeople tell me today when I ask them what exactly the Treo is targeted at: They said previous Prism users (haaaha) and new users wanting a simple personal organizer. The first one would probably all defect to Sony. The second answer makes more sense, as I saw a young couple browsing thru a large number of PDAs, and they went straight to the Treo 90. The guy then bought it for his girlfriend. This market makes some sense, but in the end Handspring will not be very popular among power users. (We're not counting the cellular-PDA market) As for how big that market is, we'll have to see.

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: In a van down by the river
Posts: 89

Re: Why kill Edge?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Digisane
That's got to be the dumbest thing Hanspring's done. No, wait.. the Treo 90 is the dumbest thing Handspring's done. Killing the Edge is a close second.

Want a keyboard? Why not both? There's this really 3rd party nice flipping keyboard that doubles as a screen protector (i forgot its name, but it's reviewed right here in Visorcentral.com).

What Handspring can do is actually remake a slightly smaller version of the Edge with a color screen (don't change any other specs-i don't care) and a flip cover with a keyboard built in!

There! Problem solved - color lightweight device with both a decent usable keyboard and graffiti. Call THAT the Treo 90, and I might just buy one.



I hate dreams. It makes the reality worse than it seems after that.

---

Somthing else to add: SPRINGBOARD, HS OBVIOUSLY FORGOT WHAT MAKES THEY'RE PDA'S SO GREAT! THEY WILL LEARN!!!

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Check out my forum @ http://groups.msn.com/PDAPocketPCForum

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Nebraska- the Good life
Posts: 695

Sigh. As a long-time Handspring supporter, I agree that the Springboard slot was pretty dang cool, and a major reason I bought a Handspring over the other options of the day several years ago.

However, we have to be fair. WE are not average users nor do we represent the buying public. Market research shows that MOST HS buyers do not buy ANY modules, and if they do, the odds are incredibly high that it is going to be a memory-related module- flash, back-up, MemPlug, etc.- which of course, Handera, Palm, and Sony were already doing (and I am sure that Handspring's innovation is what prompted them to do so!)

Talk to a module maker. The frustration is apparent- these great PDAs and modules that no one is buying. They have a dozen theories for why this is the case (poor advertising/support from Handspring, etc.), but none have had the sales they expected and most are looking for other avenues.

Heck- sales for most of these people were so bad that many were looking for other options well before the announcements of the Treo or the discontinued products hit!

Handspring did not 'forget' that the Springboard slot is a cool idea- it created a lot of attention for the company, and it spurred its competition to do increasingly cool things with their PDA's to keep up! Now, handspring needs to get back in front of the pack in innovation- and the dying module market is not likely to be the answer.

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Do what you can, with what you have, where you are at!

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 560

Madkins,

Talk like that will get you stoned. :-)

__________________
Felipe Garcia
Happy Treo 600 user, so far. Thanx Cingular for having an unlocked phone.

My Treo 600 is my phone, my PDA, my watch, and my MP3 player. Oh yeah, I take a picture once in a while with it. Convergence is such a great thing.

Registered: Jun 2002
Location: By the toilet.
Posts: 174

quote:

---

Originally posted by Madkins007
Sigh. As a long-time Handspring supporter, I agree that the Springboard slot was pretty dang cool, and a major reason I bought a Handspring over the other options of the day several years ago.
However, we have to be fair. WE are not average users nor do we represent the buying public. Market research shows that MOST HS buyers do not buy ANY modules, and if they do, the odds are incredibly high that it is going to be a memory-related module- flash, back-up, MemPlug, etc.- which of course, Handera, Palm, and Sony were already doing (and I am sure that Handspring's innovation is what prompted them to do so!)

---

Let's see... I'm a HS user, and I chose to buy a memplug, but all dealers I know of NO LONGER SELL ANY. Imagine my frustration. Memplug is a memory module, right? Or at least a memory adapter. So imagine my frustration when dealers are walking away. I would've gotten the Visorphone too, but I use GSM1800, not 1900. I don't know about in the U.S, but note my location, in Asia. Malaysia to be exact, the manufacturing place of the Handspring Visor. (And we buy these things at a much more than the U.S. prices. And U.S. has more springboards. Consider you guys lucky!)

quote:

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Talk to a module maker. The frustration is apparent- these great PDAs and modules that no one is buying. They have a dozen theories for why this is the case (poor advertising/support from Handspring, etc.), but none have had the sales they expected and most are looking for other avenues.
Heck- sales for most of these people were so bad that many were looking for other options well before the announcements of the Treo or the discontinued products hit!
Handspring did not 'forget' that the Springboard slot is a cool idea- it created a lot of attention for the company, and it spurred its competition to do increasingly cool things with their PDA's to keep up! Now, handspring needs to get back in front of the pack in innovation- and the dying module market is not likely to be the answer.

---

You have a point, but- hey, I'm buying a module! But I CAN't, and then these salepeople would think nobody wants to buy when actually they can't, and eventually the springboards would go down.

Why not keep at least a Visor to improve? Well I know they still have the Pro and Neo, but these are beginning to seem bulky these days. Handspring could've improved on a few things they already know about, not jump into a totally different market and try it from there. The springboards, for example. They could improve it, make them smaller, tuck them deeper etc. I don't know exactly how, but how about compatibilty to older modules as an option? Anyways, no point talking about this now.

In my opinion, Handspring's decision on the keyboard for Treo 90 will in my book be the worse. A combo graffiti/keyboard would've been nice, like that new Sony Clie N(whatever number model it is). To add salt in the wounds, HS recommended that Prism / Edge users get the Treo 90 as a replacement. Sorry, not going to do that, esp. those who have springboards lying around.

To be fair to Handspring, they probably need the drastic change, but PLEASE - make at least one new Visor / Springboard in their inventory. Um, scratch that thought. HS is probably not going to do it anyway because all of the Visor market had defected to Sony or other brands.

I think I'll just wait for a bit until its time to upgrade my Pro, and see what Handspring has in market then. BUT FIRST, I need to get a memplug. I think I'll just have to order one direct. SiGh.

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Nebraska- the Good life
Posts: 695

Great- YOU want to buy a module. So what? YOU ARE a consumer, of course, but statistically you alone are simply not worth the effort (not trying to be rude or personal!)

It take NUMBERS to make a market. It costs a lot to develop, cast, assemble, test, market, and deliver a module.

We happy loyal, vocal HS lovers here are not the majority. We are not a fair and accurate representation of HS users, and few manufacturers- from Handspring to Kopsis Engineering- will even pretend otherwise.

Heck- you want a MemPlug? Try here on-line- you should be able to get one at Amazon.com, PIT, eBay, or somewhere. You want your local store to carry it? Figure out a way to guarantee they will sell a thousand of them in a quarter.

That is, buy they way, part of the problem. Say 20,000 people in your community are interested in PDA's, and all buy a Handspring. Statistically, I believe that about 2,000 will by a MemPlug or similar unit, so they do. Now... what happens to the rest of the units on the shelf? You need more customers coming in somehow- and that is part of what is not happening right now- no new customers.

What new customers there are seem to be going for either color/size (Sony mostly), or price (Palm M-100's, etc.) As PocketPC prioces drop, more are going that way (whether they should or not!)

Maybe HS SHOULDA gone a differnet direction a couple years ago to be ready for this shift in the market, but for whatever reason, they did not.

Again, I applaud them for trying a bold, new direction- which is what their strength has traditionally been. I may not like Treos (have not yet seen one!), but I think that such innovation may be the only thing that saves the company (unless they re-merge with Palm).

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Do what you can, with what you have, where you are at!

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 560

Madkins,

if you ever decide to run for office, I want to be on your campaing staff.

I don't see why some people can't see the market forces at work here and it isn't handspring trying to be personal. they are just seeing the writing on the wall and trying a different way to survive. i hope the succeed.

A handspring with a springboard adapter doesn't compell most pda users to buy it when the competitiors have just as good (better) features.

The springboard was a great try, but it didn't catch on unfortunatly.

I have the handspring modem, the 8meg backup. the 8 meg mem module, a memplug, a visor phone, a xircom wireless module, and a 16 meg backup (for the upgraded 16meg prism), so I supported the springboard as much as I could. I'm sorry to see it go, but I understand why they dropped it.

I personally know about 10 users with handspring, not one of them has a springboard. Wait, one has one, but I bought it for him (a bible).

I wish handspring had to money to have two product lines, to keep the springboard concept going, but they don't. Again, they are trying something different. Only the market will tell if they chose well.

I chose with my pocket book that they made a great choice. i have a treo 270. Keyboarding my way to happiness.

__________________
Felipe Garcia
Happy Treo 600 user, so far. Thanx Cingular for having an unlocked phone.

My Treo 600 is my phone, my PDA, my watch, and my MP3 player. Oh yeah, I take a picture once in a while with it. Convergence is such a great thing.

Registered: Jun 2002
Location: By the toilet.
Posts: 174

Good point, Madkins, but I DID say I'll order direct, which I did. Thanks for the suggestion anyways.

I completely understand how the market is going, but hey, can't they at least keep some support there. It's not like Pi has stopped making memplugs right? They could've just ordered it for me and charged me a little bit more for it, can't they?

Just imagine my frustration when the salespeople say "...get a Treo." That really SUCKED. And that was twice in 2 different stores. I felt like punching them in the face. Would have preferred a "I'm sorry, the springboards are out." or "we no longer deal with this type of springboard" without saying "get a Treo. Okay, so this is the dealer's fault, but I blame Handspring somehow there too. And I know of at least another person who wanted a memplug since his got a digital cam but decided against it after that (bad sales for pi too - the downhill snowball effect).

Imagine how that felt, you've just bought a shiny new PDA within just a space of a few weeks, no one will sell accessories for it anymore, and Visors start dropping off Handspring's web site like mad. Bad timing huh? And what's worse, the newer products from Handspring seem nothing interesting. Only advantage is that it's just small.



That said, I really hope Handspring will succeed in whatever they are trying to do (I used to be a loyal Handspring customer and recommend all my friends to get a Visor when I had a Deluxe, but almost all of them went for PocketPCs when they heard most Visor models had been dropped. -WTF??- some friends i have), but I'm not buying any of their products any time soon. By that I mean the Treo 90. I might check out the 180/270 when its timeto upgrade my Visor/phone but its on a bulky side as a phone and I have lots of choices and other favorite brands of PDA-cellular phones to choose from.

In short, I blame firstly, the mindset of people in my area, they see a product being dropped, and act as if it had already been out of stock for a few years. All of this adds fuel to the fire of course. The damage got worse than it should be. Read: Bad for Handspring and 3rd party manufacturers who are thinking about sticking with SBs.

I'm also a bit miffed by why handspring decided to make the Treo 90 in _exactly_ the same form as the 180, only slimmer. (Okay, it's a Treo name, but does it *really* need to look the same??)

Thirdly, it got worse as there's no graffiti on the thing. (Is a graffiti version coming soon?) It'll look neater without a keyboard. (My prefference anyway. I still think the keyboard given is too small to allow quick typing.)

I would have preffered it if the 90 had been a little bit different form with both a flip keyboard & graffiti if they're so paranoid on implementing a keyboard. Plus the screen cover doesn't flip all the way to the back, or even 180 degrees. Oh, and a larger screen, as all stand alone organizers should be IMO.



===

quote:

---

Originally posted by Madkins007
Great- YOU want to buy a module. So what? YOU ARE a consumer, of course, but statistically you alone are simply not worth the effort (not trying to be rude or personal!)

It take NUMBERS to make a market. It costs a lot to develop, cast, assemble, test, market, and deliver a module.

We happy loyal, vocal HS lovers here are not the majority. We are not a fair and accurate representation of HS users, and few manufacturers- from Handspring to Kopsis Engineering- will even pretend otherwise.

Heck- you want a MemPlug? Try here on-line- you should be able to get one at Amazon.com, PIT, eBay, or somewhere. You want your local store to carry it? Figure out a way to guarantee they will sell a thousand of them in a quarter.

That is, buy they way, part of the problem. Say 20,000 people in your community are interested in PDA's, and all buy a Handspring. Statistically, I believe that about 2,000 will by a MemPlug or similar unit, so they do. Now... what happens to the rest of the units on the shelf? You need more customers coming in somehow- and that is part of what is not happening right now- no new customers.

What new customers there are seem to be going for either color/size (Sony mostly), or price (Palm M-100's, etc.) As PocketPC prioces drop, more are going that way (whether they should or not!)

Maybe HS SHOULDA gone a differnet direction a couple years ago to be ready for this shift in the market, but for whatever reason, they did not.

Again, I applaud them for trying a bold, new direction- which is what their strength has traditionally been. I may not like Treos (have not yet seen one!), but I think that such innovation may be the only thing that saves the company (unless they re-merge with Palm).

---

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Illinois - not Chicago
Posts: 45

quote:

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A handspring with a springboard adapter doesn't compell most pda users to buy it when the competitiors have just as good (better) features. The springboard was a great try, but it didn't catch on unfortunatly.

---

__________________
- Don -
"Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?"

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Nebraska- the Good life
Posts: 695

Boy, wouldn't that be a great topic for a business student- "Why the HS Module Idea Failed"?

I agree that marketing was a part of the problem- but it cannot be all of it. Everyone who bought a HS was given all sorts of marketing info about modules. The HS website did a good job of keeping everyone up to date, and of course, HS also sent out that spiffy catalog to everyone who registered. Finally- every HS user had a daily reminder about the modules when they saw their useless cover piece there!

Other module issues we have discussed already include the cost/usefulness ratios, bulkiness, and so on.

Digisane- sorry I missed the on-line order comment (I must have gotten carried away and forgotten it ;-) ), but your other comment about special orders reminded me of my days at a local hardware store and special orders there.

Special orders are a pain, even if the ordering system is well-designed for it, as ours was. In today's increasingly homogenized 'our way or the highway' retail mentality, special orders were one of the first things to go. There are not a lot of stores left, especially among the mega-stores, that can even consider doing a special order. I have found some stores that DO special orders... but the clerks don't know they will, or how to do it! Personally, I think that the Internet will take the place of the old 'special orders' process.

As far as whether the Treo is a good product or not- well, so far, nothing I have seen or heard about it makes me interested in selling my Sony T615 for one. I don't like tiny thumb boards either. HS NEEDS something new and different so it can move forward and build new territories. Treo may not be 'it', but I think that the market research shows that the Springboard isn't 'it' either.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:

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Originally posted by Madkins007
Boy, wouldn't that be a great topic for a business student- "Why the HS Module Idea Failed"?

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Illinois - not Chicago
Posts: 45

quote:

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I agree that marketing was a part of the problem- but it cannot be all of it. Everyone who bought a HS was given all sorts of marketing info about modules

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__________________
- Don -
"Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?"

Registered: Jun 2002
Location: By the toilet.
Posts: 174

Theory of why Springboards don't sell well

quote:

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Originally posted by Toby
Lack of committment, and poor management.[B]Knowledge of modules wasn't the problem. The problem was sales volume of the Visor _itself_. The fact is that not everyone who bought a Visor was going to buy a module (only a small percentage would be likely to buy beyond memory or backup). However, the numbers could have been quite sustainable had Handspring lived up to its supposed mission. They had everything going for them initially, and squandered the advantages (excellent price/performance ratio is what established them - same performance/size as a IIIxe at significantly less). Palm's price-cutting to stop its own inventory pile-up was the last straw.

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I thought Visors were the best selling PDAs around 1-2 years ago. Anyways, that's what i thought.

Here's a few reasons why I think the Springboard failed. I think we all know it makes the Visor bulky and most Springboards Modules aren't really that useful. But Handspring got fat & happy and completely depended on the Springboard to sell the Visors, and did not make an effort to improve on the product or come out with many really useful springboards. Then there's completely unsellable but expensive items, like the gameface. The resources spent on that and any other weird springboard would've been better spent aimed at somewhere else.

They even claimed that with the Springboard, they don't need flash ROM for the Visor OS because the Springboard can be expandable and the OS can be patched to support any other functions. Boy, were they wrong. The worse part is, I bought that statement. So, this left many OS 3.1 users not being able to use certain software. In order to use it, they'd have to upgrade to new Visors- doesn't this just contradict the fact that the Visor is expandable? Then there's the product design themselves - realise that all Visors look the same with the exception of Prism (even that looked similar) and the edge to confuse the new customers??

Had Handspring made the ROM flashable, made improvements to their line of products, been more aware of the market changes a year earlier, they wouldn't be so deep in this fix.

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Re: Theory of why Springboards don't sell well

quote:

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Originally posted by Digisane
I thought Visors were the best selling PDAs around 1-2 years ago. Anyways, that's what i thought.

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Registered: Jun 2002
Location: By the toilet.
Posts: 174

Re: Re: Theory of why Springboards don't sell well

quote:

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Originally posted by Toby
They were the _second_ best selling PDA. Palm still had a comfortable sales lead. Handspring did really well, though, until Palm's price-cutting spree.

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Aah. Well, the point is as long as they did very well few years before.

quote:

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You think they put _any_ time into the Gameface? I'll bet it was conceived and prototyped by one person in a single afternoon. There really isn't much to it.

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I meant the manufacturing of the gameface, and other stuff. I mean, there's 2 types of those for freak's sake (For Prism & Visor). They don't just make it out of thin air, do they? And you have to really question Handspring's decision to approve one person's bright idea of the afternoon.

No, they weren't wrong. The Visor _could_ have been patched to support other functions. Handspring never did it, though (other than minor bug fixes). They told the truth about the possibility. They didn't when they said they would do it. [/QUOTE]

Well I don't know about that, but surely, Handspring _didn't_ patch the OS for other functions, even if it is possible. (I only remember 1 patch for the memory problems on the early Deluxes) And you can't run software that need OS 3.5 above without buying a new Visor. Perhaps they got lazy and just thought people would buy new Visors and didn't bother to patch it. A Flash ROM here would've saved Handspring the trouble of writing the patch the OS, giving the chance to users to decide upgrade instead. That's already a very sure sign that Handspring made a big mistake there.

Speaking of which, why couldn't they just release information on the patching process so 3rd parties could do it for them?

Handspring could've been much better had they made certain changes. I still love my Visor, but am starting to really question Handspring's future for it.

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Re: Re: Re: Theory of why Springboards don't sell well

quote:

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Originally posted by Digisane
[...] I meant the manufacturing of the gameface, and other stuff. I mean, there's 2 types of those for freak's sake (For Prism & Visor). They don't just make it out of thin air, do they? And you have to really question Handspring's decision to approve one person's bright idea of the afternoon.

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Registered: Jun 2002
Location: By the toilet.
Posts: 174

quote:

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Originally posted by Toby
They probably had lots of requests for them, or someone saw that there were bunches of the same sort of thing for Nokia phones, so they made one.

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An interchangeable faceplate like those Nokias would've been preferred & more useful..

quote:

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What third party is going to have access to the OS (and Handspring extensions) source code to be able to write that patch _and_ be willing to write it for that product?

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A third party that has access to Handspring extension information after Handspring releases them.

I'll bet there'd be small dedicated groups that would take the time to do it. Although I'm not sure if it would be legal for Handspring to do that, given the Palm OS licensing and all.

__________________
I'm just a dreamer..

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:

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Originally posted by Digisane
An interchangeable faceplate like those Nokias would've been preferred & more useful..

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