Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:

---

Originally posted by dick-richardson
I see. Nothing like making your product's main selling point something that can't be proven false. I'm rather impressed with Apple. "Our computers cost more because you'll like it when you buy it." LOL!

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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

timmins,
emailing me to personally bash me is unacceptable. If you have something cogent to say, have the balls to say it publicly. If your just going to whine because you feel that you were right, keep it to yourself. Two personal messages and an email is more contact than I care to have with you. Go home to mama and cry on her shoulder.

BTW, I don't think I've come across as having all the answers. If there were any other points you were trying to make, they were lost.

__________________
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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: I'm not sure, but I see lots of lights everywhere.
Posts: 1287

Oh no, not another Mac vs. PC debate?!?!?!

Ooh goody! Here we go around the may pole again!

This issue is a touchstone for me because I'm actually considering switching to a Mac myself. I've been a PC user for 6 years now. Macs and PCs each have their niche in the market. PCs are better for business applications, productivity, and gaming. Macs are more widely used in the design and content creation fields, and professional music and video production. In other words, create professionals choose Macs over PCs in most cases, while the business world chooses PCs over Macs. In my experience, people who use Macs tend to be fiercely loyal to their platform. While PC users are happy with their PCs, they really don't hold the same bond with WinTel (Windows/Intel based PCs). The PC is a tool, but it's not a tool you can fall in love with like a Mac. My DELL system is functional, though out-dated, but I would be hard pressed to say that I love it.

Macs are exceptionally well designed, right down to that last screw. From start to shutdown, the experience is rich and rewarding. The moment you open the cardboard box and pull out the system, you know you have something special. No other OEM can match the "out of the box experience" that Apple can deliver. It's like unwrapping a Corvette under the Christmas tree.PCs on the other hand, are made in utilitarian fashion with little regard to design. It's sad really. Look at the iMac for example, I wouldn't use an iMac to save my life, but it is the most widely known computer in the entire PC industry. At a moments glance, they are immediately recognizable. In a room filled with 1000 PCs, you can spot the iMac from across the chasm. PCs don't share the same notoriety, from brand to brand, they all look alike. Like it or not, the Mac has sex appeal, they look cool. PCs are boring beige boxes that are about as sexy as an electric can opener. Back when I was a Mac basher, I always made the argument that style doesn't matter, and my PC goes under my desk anyway. LIES...ALL LIES!. The real truth was; I always wanted my PC to look cool. But I continued happily using my beige box with the comforting belief that, eventually, PCs would jump on the "cool looks" bandwagon. BUT IT NEVER HAPPENED!!! In six years the PC has not changed, in terms of design. Is it any wonder why consumers have lost interest in PCs? This market is stagnant! You can almost smell the scent of moldy cheese emanating from Best Buy and Circuit City. It's not hard to see why many OEMs are falling. Micron made excellent quality systems, but when it comes right down to it, it's just another box maker. How many of those type of vendors do we need around? No matter what opinion you may have of Apple, they are an innovative and exciting company. And even when I hated Macs, I always watched the live streaming broadcasts of Steve Jobs keynotes...just to see what he was going to pull back the curtain on next! You have to hand it to Jobs, he's one hell of a salesman!

Sooner or later, design becomes a product differentiator. Good design can make even a boring product look suddenly appealing. Look at PDAs as an example of this phenomenon. A friend of mine showed me his new Visor Prism, which by the way I recommended to him. Since then I have been seduced by color, again, and I've been contemplating going for the Prism instead of the M505. So today I went to Staples to play around with the Prism, but as much as I found myself lusting after its truly gorgeous display, I quickly drifted over to the Edge. Why? Because it looks so much more stylish and elegant than the Prism. I love color, but I'm not willing to ignore good design for it's sake.

Then of course there is Windows. I can't say enough bad things about Windows in general. It's a never ending stream of glitches/crashes/freezes/lock-ups/dll errors/fatal executions/memory leaks/driver incompatibilities/GPFs...and on and on! I'm having a problem right now that I can't seem to track down. For some reason my QuickTime files will not play properly. The audio is garbled and out of sync with the video. I'm sure it's a codec or video rendering problem that will no doubt require me to purge my hard drive and set up Windows from the ground up to repair. Not like I haven't done that 1,000,000 times before. Windows breaks far too easily. XP I'm sure will be an improvement, but it won't cure all Win32 architecture flaws. Are you eXPerienced?

Whether I go with a Mac or not will depend on a number of different factors. For now, I'm playing the waiting game. My old Pentium II 350 is a relic in terms of performance. Sometimes even doing the most basic task (such as opening a large e-mail message) can take forever, and running PhotoShop is an exercise in futility. I may cycle through PDAs like Pez dispensers, but PCs are not something I take lightly. My system is 3 years old, and not once was I tempted to purchase the latest and greatest that rolled on by. Needless to say, I will weigh every detail before making my decision.

As for price, it is definately a factor holding me back from buying a PowerMac G4. The cheapest G4 tower goes for $1700. For that money I can purchase a DELL 8100 with the same specs (with the exception of processors) for $1300. That's quite a gap.

__________________
My blog: Pocketfactory

Last edited by foo fighter on 04-16-2001 at 10:46 PM

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 289

The semi-Low End..

Apple's offering.... $1348.00
iMAC .. 256MB RAM, 400mhz processor, 10GB harddrive, CD-ROM, 15" display, Rage 128 Pro graphics w/8MB VRAM, 10/100 base-t ethernet, 56k internal modem, 2 USB ports, 2 firewire ports, harman kardon speakers, pro keyboard, pro mouse, mac os 9, 3 year warranty

Dell's offering.... $1347.00
Dimension L series .. 256MB RAM, P3/1GHZ Processor, 20GB harddrive, CD-ROM, 17" display, 3d AGP Graphics card, 10/100 base-t ethernet, 56k internal modem, 2 USB ports, 2 firewire ports, harman kardon speakers, keyboard, 2 button mouse, windows me, 3 year warranty..

additions (over the mac system): 1 yr dellnet internet service, additional 10GB of disk space, microsoft works suite 2001 w/money 2001, norton antivirus 2001

so your within $1, a newbie would get a few more additional features that would be helpful to them on the PC side (the works suite, internet access, etc.. all preinstalled/configured/etc..) so they could just as easily get up and running ..

all of you can keep complaining all you want, but the simple fact of the matter is most people use their computers for the following:

1. internet access
2. email
3. occasional word processing
4. few games, possibly balance their checkbook, etc..

so who really cares either way -- they are both capable systems, both priced competitively, both about the same simplicity to operate and I believe the transition to Mac OS X on the Mac side and the transtion to WinXP on the PC side will *possibly* make the PC easier to navigate and use... however, time will tell.

btw - yes, i use both macs (imacs, g4, g3, older 604/603 PowerPCs, the 68k processors, etc...) and dells (everything from 486's to Pentium 1ghz machines...) at work -- both seem to be about the same level of reliability... (very little hardware troubleshooting after they are setup .. just some general preventive maintance..)

joe

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 200

One thing I didn't like about Apple was how they originally marketed their $1800 no monitor G4 Cube as a "supercomputer," yet it came with only 64MB of RAM at the time. Watching a DVD was painful -- it took a second for the big round control panel, which blocked 1/3 of the screen, to appear or disappear, with an ensuing stutter in the audio. (I am unscientifically blaming the lack of memory because my friends with iMacs have no DVD problems, but they have 128MB+ RAM.)

But I admire how Apple's been successfully pushing lots of new technologies like SCSI (in the old days), USB and now Firewire.

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 54

quote:

---

Originally posted by timmins
Here is point number one... but this doesn't mean this is substain enough to be the most important:

BOX - Apple PowerMac G4 Compaq Presario 5900Z
Processor - Motorola G4 AMD Athlon
Speed - 500 MHz 850 MHz
RAM Type - SDRAM SDRAM
RAM Amt - 256MB 256MB
HD Type - Ultra ATA Ultra DMA
HD Size - 27GB 30GB
HD RPM - 7200 7200
Video Card - Rage 128 Pro NVIDIA GeForce 256
VRAM - 16MB 32MB
CD/DVD - DVD-RAM DVD-ROM, CD-RW
Price - $3399 $2747

close to 600 dollars

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Last edited by joshieca on 04-17-2001 at 12:16 AM

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 54

quote:

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Originally posted by dick-richardson
timmins,
emailing me to personally bash me is unacceptable. If you have something cogent to say, have the balls to say it publicly.

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Last edited by joshieca on 04-17-2001 at 04:11 AM

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Glendora, CA
Posts: 96

WOW...how I missed this discussion is beyond me! Le'me say one thing...THANKS to everyone who has posted here. Thanks for this: Comparing Mac OS to Windows, and comparing Mac hardware to PC hardware. Too many times the line gets crossed where someone starts comparing Mac hardware to Microsoft...about the equivelant of comparing a flavor of ice cream to the cone it sits in just seconds before being eaten.

Now for my point, which has been touched on. Look at it in terms of the long run. How long will a PC's hardware last you? This can be seen in terms of longevity and in terms of it just doesn't fit your needs anymore.

I have had several PC's break...beyond me even wanting to repair them anymore...out of sheer disgust I bought a Mac. My very first Mac was a Performa 5215CD...not easily mistaken for today's iMac...but the same thought process. It was a good computer, had it's problems...but 2 years later I was able to turn around and sell it on eBay for a about $300. The computer worked great, it just didn't fit my needs...needs change.

My next computer was a Mac...I figured, heck...why crap on a good thing? I am still using this Mac today (now in fact). It is a G3 333 (beige box). I have upgraded it several times, but heck...I have owned it nearly 4 years now...even Barbara Walters is entitled to a face lift. Not only has this computer never broken ( I guess the 3 year extended Apple Care policy wasn't needed after all), but it still fits my lifestyle and needs. Occassionally I need Windows...so I fire up VPC 4.0. The only thing that truly bugs me is the 66MHz system Bus...I know this thing is capable of so much more....but oh well, I keep on using it. I have, since purchase and/or installed 224MB total memory, a USB PCI card, a 10x/4x/32x CD/R burner, a 32MB graphics card, an external modem, Epson 870 photo printer, and have a very clear 17" monitor (thanks Hitachi/Raster Ops). I swear this thing will run day in and day out....and the best part?

Best part...if you go onto eBay, and do a quick search for a G3 333 minitower, you will find that most have been upgraded in the same fashion. You will also find that even without a monitor, printer, or sometimes even a keyboard, this "beige box" is still reselling for $600-$800. So if anyone wants to talk quality...talk Mac. I know some of you can build a superfast P4 1.5GHz machine for under $1000...but will it last 4 years? I know that Mac's cost more up front...but who cares if you can sell it for $800 after you have gone and used it for half a decade?

I'm going to stop rambling now....way past my bedtime.

Sam

__________________
<CENTER>
<strong>
<span style="color: blue;">Where's the "Make Coffee" button again?</span>
</strong>

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 276

I lied... I looked. This is too funny. I have worked with computers for over 20 years (started at the age of 4), and have probably had more computers than most here.

CAN YOU SIMPLY UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ALL HAVE OPINIONS?

o�pin�ion (-pnyn) n. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: �The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion� (Elizabeth Drew).
A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert: a medical opinion.
A judgment or an estimation of the merit of a person or thing: has a low opinion of braggarts.
The prevailing view: public opinion.
Law. A formal statement by a court or other adjudicative body of the legal reasons and principles for the conclusions of the court.

maybe one of you thick-headed people who love to write short novels about their "personal computer" (not PC) will love to read that definition over and over again.

And then again, if you are just looking for a shiny case (like foo) and you think the case actually matters when you are rendering polygons, typing a document, running a web server, checking email, or just watching your desktop... then again, my point is even more reinforced, we all have opinions.

__________________
what?<br>

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

Timmins:

Aesthetics and ergonomics do NOT mean much in terms of the power of th computer. I agree with that. Aesthetics and ergonomics DO mean a lot to the consumer, though, and tend to provide, overall, a much more rewarding user experience.

The Audi TT's didn't need to be so 'cool' looking. It would have been the same performance car if it were put in a beige, square frame. I'm guessing they wouldn't sell to many of those, though.

Where most computer companies fail is in their marketing of performance and price only. Those two elements are big factors in the purchasing decision, but are by all means not the only factors.

Companies like Apple, Sony, Nike, Target, IKEA, Audi, etc... understand this fact. These companies do not sell utilitarian products...they sell lifestyles. And they do that through good aesthetic and ergonomic design.

This doesn't make their products 'better'...just different.

I was recently looking for a new vehicle. We had narrowed it down to a Honda CRV and a Subaru Forrester. Both good vehicles. I could have spent time comparing the numbers and horsepower and torque, etc, but you know what REALLY got my attention? The built-in picnic table in the CRV.

Yes, that feature is irrelevant to he overall physical quality of the vehicle, and certainly should not be the 'swing factor' but it WAS good design. And that got my attention. A lot of people would stick with the performance/price factors. A lot of people would stick with the design factors. Some would consider both. Different people, different priorities.

I ended up with the Forrester. It was the best car...for me. That's what matters. I'm sure I could start a Subaru vs. Honda debate that would probably mirror a Mac vs. PC debate.

And, yes, Timmins, we all have opinions, just as you do. That's what a Mac vs. PC argument usually is...two sides vehemently defending their opinions.

Enjoy it for what it is.

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Glendora, CA
Posts: 96

Thank you Timmins for making our points even more clear. We are having the great chicken vs. egg debate, and you woop out ol' Webster on us. Instead of doing that...why don't you pull up on your "20 years of computer experience" and tell us what you really think?!



You afraid?



...afraid us Mac users are right???





...afraid of nice looking things???



...do you still use a lime green refrigerator from the 1970's because it "works good?"



...i'm not embarrassed to remove my computer from where it hides in the desk, and place it on top of the desk for everyone to see....are you?



Didn't think so.





PS-for arguments' sake, the Audi TT would not be the same performance machine if it didn't look the way it does...that is physics. But for your point, we will let that one slide....NOW, let's scramble the egg of that chicken!

__________________
<CENTER>
<strong>
<span style="color: blue;">Where's the "Make Coffee" button again?</span>
</strong>

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: I'm not sure, but I see lots of lights everywhere.
Posts: 1287

quote:

---

Originally posted by homer
Aesthetics and ergonomics do NOT mean much in terms of the power of th computer. I agree with that. Aesthetics and ergonomics DO mean a lot to the consumer, though, and tend to provide, overall, a much more rewarding user experience.

---

__________________
My blog: Pocketfactory

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Re: The semi-Low End..

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cerulean
Apple's offering.... $1348.00
iMAC .. 256MB RAM, 400mhz processor, 10GB harddrive, CD-ROM, 15" display, Rage 128 Pro graphics w/8MB VRAM, 10/100 base-t ethernet, 56k internal modem, 2 USB ports, 2 firewire ports, harman kardon speakers, pro keyboard, pro mouse, mac os 9, 3 year warranty

Dell's offering.... $1347.00
Dimension L series .. 256MB RAM, P3/1GHZ Processor, 20GB harddrive, CD-ROM, 17" display, 3d AGP Graphics card, 10/100 base-t ethernet, 56k internal modem, 2 USB ports, 2 firewire ports, harman kardon speakers, keyboard, 2 button mouse, windows me, 3 year warranty..

additions (over the mac system): 1 yr dellnet internet service, additional 10GB of disk space, microsoft works suite 2001 w/money 2001, norton antivirus 2001

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Last edited by Toby on 04-17-2001 at 03:47 PM

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 54

Geeeee and to think that this all started because AvantGo didn't upate their client software 4.0 for the Mac.

Bad AvantGo. BAD!


In case your interested....here are some interesting facts on the MYTH of MHZ.


Part One:
http://maccentral.macworld.com/news...megahertz.shtml

Part Two:
http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0104/11.myth.shtml

Part Three:
http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0104/17.myth.shtml

Last edited by joshieca on 04-17-2001 at 04:26 PM

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:

---

Originally posted by joshieca
Geeeee and to think that this all started because AvantGo didn't upate their client software 4.0 for the Mac.

Bad AvantGo. BAD!

---

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 276

quote:

---

Originally posted by homer
Timmins:

Aesthetics and ergonomics do NOT mean much in terms of the power of th computer. I agree with that. Aesthetics and ergonomics DO mean a lot to the consumer, though, and tend to provide, overall, a much more rewarding user experience.

The Audi TT's didn't need to be so 'cool' looking. It would have been the same performance car if it were put in a beige, square frame. I'm guessing they wouldn't sell to many of those, though.

I was recently looking for a new vehicle. We had narrowed it down to a Honda CRV and a Subaru Forrester. Both good vehicles. I could have spent time comparing the numbers and horsepower and torque, etc, but you know what REALLY got my attention? The built-in picnic table in the CRV.

---

__________________
what?<br>

Last edited by timmins on 04-18-2001 at 03:28 AM

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 276

quote:

---

Originally posted by joshieca
Geeeee and to think that this all started because AvantGo didn't upate their client software 4.0 for the Mac.

Bad AvantGo. BAD!


In case your interested....here are some interesting facts on the MYTH of MHZ.


Part One:
http://maccentral.macworld.com/news...megahertz.shtml

Part Two:
http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0104/11.myth.shtml

Part Three:
http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0104/17.myth.shtml

---

__________________
what?<br>

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 276

quote:

---

Originally posted by yosemitesamiam
Thank you Timmins for making our points even more clear. We are having the great chicken vs. egg debate, and you woop out ol' Webster on us. Instead of doing that...why don't you pull up on your "20 years of computer experience" and tell us what you really think?!

---

__________________
what?<br>

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

---

Also, did you really buy a car because of a picnic table?

---

Of course not (read the rest of my post ). I didn't buy my PowermacG4 just because it has a cool power button, either, but both design elements were part of my overall decision.

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:

---

Originally posted by timmins
I lied... I looked. This is too funny. I have worked with computers for over 20 years (started at the age of 4), and have probably had more computers than most here.

CAN YOU SIMPLY UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ALL HAVE OPINIONS?

o�pin�ion (-pnyn) n. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: �The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion� (Elizabeth Drew).
A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert: a medical opinion.
A judgment or an estimation of the merit of a person or thing: has a low opinion of braggarts.
The prevailing view: public opinion.
Law. A formal statement by a court or other adjudicative body of the legal reasons and principles for the conclusions of the court.

maybe one of you thick-headed people who love to write short novels about their "personal computer" (not PC) will love to read that definition over and over again.

And then again, if you are just looking for a shiny case (like foo) and you think the case actually matters when you are rendering polygons, typing a document, running a web server, checking email, or just watching your desktop... then again, my point is even more reinforced, we all have opinions.

---

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.