Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 21

The surest way to get people angry in a forum like this, when the euphoria of a new-product introduction is in full swing, is to stick to plain common sense. So be forewarned: if this kind of thing upsets you, skip this post. For the rest of you, please be assured that I'm not impugning anyone's honesty or competence.

I confirmed this morning (9/17/99) that Handspring was still taking Visor orders with pen and paper. I expressed surprise that the representatives were not working at terminals and entering data directly. I was told that the pen-and-paper process was necessary because of the "volume" of orders. I asked what was being done with the hard copies of customers' credit card information, and I was told that the manually-entered information is being "keyed in" at each shift change, whereupon the hard copies are destroyed.

Taking these points in order:

1. A high volume of orders is the most powerful argument imaginable for NOT entering orders manually. Is there any data-entry-intensive business out there that hasn't switched over to an electronic data entry system? Even my supermarket deli counter takes orders from an in-store terminal! Sorry: the use of manual data entry indicates lack of preparation - not unexpected order volume. And I'm not reassured to know that Handspring's method of order-taking is not being disclosed to its customers, many of whom would likely rethink or postpone their orders.

2. Something is wrong with this story about data entry with each shift change. If the orders were being entered directly into the Handspring system every few hours, we wouldn't be waiting two weeks for an e-mail confirmation number: the number would be assigned upon order entry. So I think what's going on is that the handwritten orders are periodically being keystroked into some sort of database or spreadsheet just for the sake of preserving the information. At some later date, that information will be re-entered (or transferred) into the actual Handspring system, at which point confirmation numbers will be assigned. If so (and really, how else can you explain the two-week delay?), we're dealing with multiple entries or transfers of order information. That significantly increases the possibility of error, loss or mishandling. Until there is a confirmation number associated with an order, there is simply no way to track or verify that order.

3. I'm sure that the Handspring folks are making every effort to be careful about the hard copies of customers' personal and credit information. However, if good intent and normal care were enough, we wouldn't all be using SSL and encryption to protect our information, and we wouldn't be confronted with a dizzying array of paper shredders in every office catalog. What's fair is fair: if we pillory Microsoft every time someone discovers a security hole in Excel that only three hackers in the world are smart enough to figure out, we can't be cavalier about less-than-scrupulous handling of our personal credit information. People are fallible, rushed and stressed. What if a stray stack of written orders doesn't get shredded? If I trust my Handspring representative, am I also obliged to trust the person who empties the dumpster at some office park in a city five hundred miles away? This may seem like paranoia to people who haven't experienced the theft or misuse of their personal information; but then, the use of anti-virus software seems like paranoia to some people too.

I am forced to conclude that Handspring's business practices simply don't measure up to the standards we have a right to expect, here on the eve of the year 2000. I can forgive a website that fails to convey detailed product information (warranties, for one thing). Other things are less easy to forgive. I see a drive to meet a launch date, but no corresponding willingness to commit the resources necessary to support that launch. Handspring picked its own deadline; they have to be held accountable for failing to prepare for it. I see a disregard for the legitimate security and privacy concerns of customers. I see a headlong rush to accumulate orders, but no concern over the inevitable errors, returns and problems that will start to pile up as a product of a bizarre and antiquated order-taking system. That is the hallmark of a "quick-hit" merchant, not a company that wants to build long-term loyalty and goodwill. And finally - and perhaps most objectionably - I see a callous attempt to trade on the well-known new-gadget-lust of tech addicts, who will often disregard considerations of security or common business sense in order to be the first on the block with the latest gizmo. Yes, we have that failing. No, we don't have to be exploited as a result of it.

Designing and building a good product is only part of a success story. That product must be brought to market and supported with excellent business practices: that's the rest of the story. Palm - an industry leader with a proven record of good customer support - makes some pretty good PDAs, too; and they're sure to be doing some aggressive price-cutting shortly. I, for one, will wait to see how this particular story plays out before I let Handspring write - and I do mean write - my order.


[This message has been edited by adVisor (edited 09-17-1999).]

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Posts: 32

Preach on sista!...

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 106

Thoughtfully stated...couldn't agree more. Have you forwarded to Handspring yet?

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 21

Thanks for the kind words. I forwarded the message to Handspring this afternoon, and I'll be interested to see what kind of reply I get (if any). I'll share the response.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 21

As promised, here's Handspring's response.


Thanks for your insight. We're well aware of the method to ramp the order
process. We have a online system that unfortunately was delayed several
days. The same system will simultaneously be used by our customer support
staff when we switch.


Some brief editorial comments:

If we're really only a few days away from having the Visor online ordering process up and running, there are some noteworthy ironies here:

1. The people most likely to be soured on Handspring - if the expected errors and lost orders do in fact materialize - are the people the company should LEAST want to alienate: namely, the enthusiastic consumers willing to take a chance on a new company and a new product right out of the box. It's those people who normally make up the core of a loyal user community (and who typically spread the word about a new product most effectively).

2. I have this feeling that the customers who defer their orders until the automated system is in place may well wind up getting their Visors sooner than the brave early pioneers. After all, "first in-first out" works only where all the orders are going into the same system. By the time those first orders are re-entered from the handwritten order sheets, the first automated orders will already be working their way through the system.

When all's said and done, this manual-entry fiasco will have accomplished nothing for the company or the customers. No one will receive a Visor any more quickly in return for the inconvenience and security risks, and Handspring will have depleted a significant part of its "opening balance" of goodwill for no reason. Why didn't they just launch the site - let people get interested in the product - and include a note that online ordering would begin in (say) a week's time? That way, the people who ordered under the manual-entry system would instead have read about the Visor, made their color choices and lined up to buy when the company began taking orders. No sales would have been lost. No customer confidence would have been lost. I'm frankly mystified at this way of doing business.



[This message has been edited by adVisor (edited 09-18-1999).]

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 5

Frankly, I have a great deal of trouble understanding why so many of you think that because a credit card is typed into a computer, it is somehow safer.

I think it is ridiculous to look at this from a security standpoint. Whether staff members write it down on paper, or save it on a computer, it is only safe if the company has taken precautions to make the computer system safe. Writing them to a home made Excel file is NOT safer than writing on paper.

Having said that, I have certainly lost a great deal of respect for a high tech company that writes orders on paper. I agree that they seem unacceptably unorganized. I called from Japan, and was very disappointed with their current state of confusion. I didn't order, and will wait for the online ordering to begin.

btw - they won't ship to Japan. Nor did they have any information about localized versions.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 43

I commend asVisor for taking the time to articulate what, I'm sure, many of us feel in the pit of our stomachs--I know I have that "wondering" feeling. Will I get a confirmation number via e-mail? Will my unit ship to me in "first in/first out" order? Will it ship at all? After I placed my order early on Tuesday morning, I called back several times to check on when I could expect a confirmation. The people were always very nice, but the date kept slipping. Right now, because I'm such a "gadget geek," I feel like I took an acceptable risk to be one of the first to own this new technology. Of course, if I don't get it, or it's December before I get it, then I will feel very much differently.
AdVisor made a comment about Handspring picking the launch date, and he's right--it was totally in their control. Now I wonder if there was prior knowledge of the 3Com spin-off announcement which forced them to proceed with the launch, even though their ordering system was "delayed."
My "gut" feel is that nothing sinister is going on; the Visor is a great product at a good price; Handspring's decision to proceed with order acceptance is probably just an initial misstep that probably won't be repeated.
I guess we'll all just have to stay tuned to see if my "gut" is right.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Mableton, GA, USA
Posts: 7

Concerning Handspring�s business practices, I am personally not peeved by their taking orders by hand. I called the 888 number Thursday and ordered a Deluxe Visor after returning a Palm IIIx for full refund that afternoon. The lady I spoke with was polite and knowledgeable and helped me to become clear on a few things that, admittedly, the website is deficient in explaining.

Had I known in advance that they were taking orders with pen and paper, it still would not have caused a moment�s hesitation in calling. As a previous poster [MD] pointed out, there is nothing inherently secure about storing information as bits and bytes. It can be entered wrongly, accidentally deleted, or otherwise misused regardless of which medium the information is stored. Companies safely recorded customer data, all sorts of business particulars, and trade secrets on paper well before the onslaught of computers, ask anyone in their 40�s.

It cannot be disputed that keeping business of the scale that Handspring is/will be experiencing on computer versus paper is simply more efficient. They understand this and so does their �Queen� (who earned degrees to graduate level in business from both Yale and Harvard.) This is probably the reason they have made arrangements to take their transaction and customer management online, as stated in an earlier post.

Something else stated in an earlier post is that those of us choosing to purchase one of these gizmos are undertaking a known risk. Becoming �soured� on a company is what happens when you have been done a disservice of some greater proportion. If Handspring is being careless with my credit card information, that qualifies; if Handspring is withholding information about reliability, shipping date, etc, then that qualifies as well. As far as I know, none of this has been implied or otherwise suggested.

Simply stated, if you want to take a chance on purchasing a Visor, then do so. However, I feel that by taking that chance, you relieve yourself of the right to criticize their business practice. If there was something you needed to know about future development, support, warranty, whether or not they type in or write down orders, shipping dates, etc, then it should have been asked at the outset. If you later find out about some horrible ethical transgression on their part, demand your money back and ***** about it. But please do not whine without basis.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 21

For what it's worth, I wish Handspring every success with the Visor; I hope every person who has ordered one receives his/her order on time and without error; and I don't think anything dishonest is going on.

That said, I don't think the fact of having bought a Visor should be viewed as a bar to the expression of criticism or concerns about the product or the company. (Last time I checked, there were a few Windows users who seemed to think they hadn't lost the right to comment on Microsoft and its practices by virtue of buying the OS.) I haven't ordered a Visor (although I nearly did), and I'm now thinking the whole matter over. But let's not "chill" the proceedings by telling the people who HAVE ordered that they've forfeited the right to enter into the discussion.

I agree that digital storage or entry of information is not inherently more secure or accurate than manual entry. But this much is clear: for someone to access personal information from a computer system - even a poorly-secured one - that person has to know the system's there, has to know the information's there, and has to make a purposeful effort to get at it. It's much easier for paper records to wind up in front of a third party, if only by pure accident. Moreover, given the lack of organization and professionalism (on Handspring's part) evidenced by many of the posts at this site, I think there is ample reason for concern in this PARTICULAR case. Just ask the poster who wasn't even asked for an e-mail address! Besides, the comparison shouldn't be between manual record-keeping and some hypothetical, non-secure digital storage system: it should be between manual record-keeping and the modern, secure system we have a right to expect. I certainly remember the days when manual data entry was the only kind there was. My first store charge accounts didn't even use cards - or numbers, for that matter: just a signature. That was a pretty good world to live in, and there are things about it that might be worth rediscovering. I don't happen to think that manual data entry is one of them.

And I can't resist pointing out that many, many mistakes - some really tragic and some, like this, really trivial - have been made by people with multiple graduate degrees...even ones from Harvard and Yale. (Maybe if there had been a third Ivy degree, the online ordering/customer service system would have been in operation from day one.)



[This message has been edited by adVisor (edited 09-18-1999).]

[This message has been edited by adVisor (edited 09-19-1999).]

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1883

hey guy's,
look at the bright side, if they take orders manually they are Y2K proof ;-)

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Dayton, TN, USA
Posts: 66

OK, one thing for all of us who ordered a Visor already, is that we did sort of jump the gun. Their homepage still has a link to be put on an email newsletter when the Visor starts shipping. We were just savvy enough to discover the toll-free number hidden below the picture of the Visor. I expect that Handspring was taken a little off-guard by the number of us "technogeeks" who placed orders right off the bat. I, for one, am willing to forgive this mishap and give them the benefit of the doubt that they will yet become the high-class tech company we all want them to be. Call me nieve.

Now, on the lighter side, I ran across this Dilbert the other day (hope Scott doesn't mind the re-print).

Marketing guy: The marketing department saves the day! Check out these brochures I made. This new product will allow us to dominate the market!

Dilbert: But we don't make this product.

Marketing guy: That hasn't hurt our sales so far.

Hopefully this isn't Handspring!

Have a great day.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 106

Handspring just called...they agree that since no online ordering system is in place, they are doing away with their anitquated paper-based process. Handspring is asking their operators to remember who called.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 28

RJT ... did they say whether or not a single individual would have our names, credit card numbers *and* expiration dates? Or were they planning to break that information up amongst the operators so that it takes three people to complete an order (or use someone's number, etc. :^)

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 74

It is my guess that they had no intention of taking orders until their online system was available. Then some smart marketing guy said "PLEEEAAASSE, we are losing money. Just a few pre-orders."

I think he was right. I ordered one as soon as I saw the number. I am glad of the pre-sales.

One last thing. The service and product many of us are comaring this to was created by these same two individuals. The didn't leave Palm to create an inferior product. IMMHO.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Streamwood, IL USA
Posts: 118

They told me that they would have 5 people to complete each transaction. One with Name, one with CC#, one with Exp Date, one with E-mail address, and one with a "parity bit" They called it their new "RAIP-5" system. It was a Redundant Array of Inexpensive Personel

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Mableton, GA, USA
Posts: 7

>>That said, I don't think the fact of having bought a Visor should be viewed as a bar to the expression of criticism or concerns about the product or the company. (Last time I checked, there were a few Windows users who seemed to think they hadn't lost the right to comment on Microsoft and its practices by virtue of buying the OS.) ...let's not "chill" the proceedings by telling the people who HAVE ordered that they've forfeited the right to enter into the discussion.


No, no forfeiture of whining rights, but it certainly subtracts from one�s credibility. In the Microsoft example, if John Smith has had some unappealing interaction with Windows or other MS products (as many have), then chooses to buy a Windows machine, John Smith�s sniveling has just become unwarranted simply because he knew what he was getting into, so to speak. If I may take a moment to be profound: personal accountability courts risk in an ideal world.


>>I agree that digital storage or entry of information is not inherently more secure or accurate than manual entry.

Thanks.

>>But this much is clear: for someone to access personal information...that person has to know the system's there, has to know the information's there, and has to make a purposeful effort to get at it. It's much easier for paper records to wind up in front of a third party, if only by pure accident.

I suppose this point could be argued until the cows come home (as my grandfather used to say), but what all of this boils down to, and which was not stated I might add, is malicious intent. If there is a person in Handspring�s office that would acquire and misuse printed credit card information, then they would probably not have any problem misusing queried records in a computer-based record system either. Moreover, since they work at Handspring, it is likely that they are familiar with the system they would intend to compromise.

>>...given the lack of organization and professionalism...there is ample reason for concern in this PARTICULAR case. Just ask the poster who wasn't even asked for an e-mail address!

This would be a product of the inefficiency associated with manual record keeping, not willful neglect, gross negligence, ignoring policy, or anything else reminiscent of �piss poor management.� I can accept a mistake. If there were 10 such posts about unasked-for information, then I�d be as irritated as some of the other posters.

>>...That was a pretty good world to live in, and there are things about it that might be worth rediscovering. I don't happen to think that manual data entry is one of them.

I agree. Manual record keeping as a long-term solution is unacceptable for any company with a user base greater than, say, nineteen. However, it has been stated that this is a short-term solution while their computerized record system is installed. I can live with that. My �expectations� of Handspring will be realized when I get my Visor Deluxe in 4-6 weeks � without any surprises on future credit card statements. How they choose to make that happen is their business; I am not in the business of telling other companies how to do theirs.

As I said before, I am taking a known risk on both this company and this product. If it works out, great. If not, then I will cross that bridge when I come to it.


[This message has been edited by bumblebee (edited 09-20-1999).]

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 21

Bumblebee, thank you for your remarks. I suspect we have many points of agreement about all of this. I would make only a few brief comments.

As regards the "whining" issue, I think this is a fairly unusual situation: one in which people are discovering, AFTER making what they hope is a telephone purchase, that the ordering process is being handled in a way that gives rise to certain concerns (after all, it's not as if they could confidently call and cancel their orders: they have no confirmation or order numbers). So I think it may be a little harsh to characterize these people as "whiners" when they articulate these concerns.

I am on record as saying that I don't suspect malicious intent on the part of the Handspring personnel. I have no particular reason to assume their unvarying integrity either, but I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt. However, I think it's reasonable to be concerned about paper records that don't get shredded (through oversight, not dishonesty) and find their way into hands that don't belong to Handspring employees.

If 10 posts about missing items of information would give you pause, then how about more than 10 posts documenting pricing inconsistencies? That bespeaks a lack of professionalism in my book. The case of the purchaser who wasn't asked for an e-mail address is an extreme example, but not the only one.

Anyway, to change the subject a little...I thought one of the great virtues of e-commerce was its ability to handle the marketing/selling process in a dynamic, interactive way. So the question is: why hasn't Handspring reacted to any of these concerns? This isn't an all-or-nothing proposition - either the fully functioning Handspring super-site we've heard about OR the same static site that's been up since the 14th. Even if the new and improved site isn't ready, how about a reliable price list - to address the many price discrepancies? And how about a statement about the ordering confusion generally (maybe with an update on when the online ordering system will be up and running)? At some point, company inaction itself starts to become an issue.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Colorado Springs, Co
Posts: 23

Quite frankly, I think Handspring was surprised and taken off guard by the number of people salavating over their new product. It's only been unveiled for a week and they are so overwhelmed by orders they had to resort to writing orders down. I too will be interested at how they recover and address the problems they have been having, and I'm confident that it will be professional. (Hint: free stuff for people who have already orderd???)

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 5

Inspired by this thread, I just called Handspring and cancelled my order. When I called, their first question was, "Can you remember when you ordered?" The second was, "Can you remember who you talked to?" After using my name, address, and e-mail, they were able to find and cancel my order. When I asked for confirmation for the cancellation of my order, the rep said,"You can like call us back in a week or two." Eventually, they agreed to e-mail the cancellation confirmaiton to me."

I am going to wait for some real people to receive their Visors before buying from Handspring. Until then, I am sticking with Palm. Maybe I am paranoid. I am just going to be safe.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Mableton, GA, USA
Posts: 7

I think you are correct, adVisor, we probably do have more points not in contention than otherwise. And please don�t construe any of my posts as overzealous efforts in pursuit of a �flame-war.� We just have a healthy disagreement here.

Incidentally, something I don�t think we are seeing eye-to-eye on regards the tail end of my first post. I mentioned that those choosing to purchase from Handspring should ask the representative for current information on their product before agreeing to buy; I�m sure we can both agree on this. Obviously, anything not in agreement between the seller and the buyer could be cleared up at that time. Fortunately, simply dialing 888-565-9393 does not obligate one to a purchase. Perhaps some of the issues raised in your last post could have been cleared up that way.

Some example questions:
1) Which Palm Pilot model is your Visor Deluxe comparable to?
2) What is the warranty period and what does it cover?
3) Exactly what models are available for purchase and what are their prices?
4) When do these ship?
5) Is there a way to order online?
6) How will ordering by phone versus waiting for online ordering affect the arrival time of my Visor?
7) How would I go about canceling my order?

Certainly the �more than 10 posts documenting pricing inconsistencies� should have been addressed at that cool moment immediately prior to rattling of a Visa number. Indeed, not asking a price before submitting a credit card number, expiration date, and name-as-it-appears is patently insane!

>>...I thought one of the great virtues of e-commerce was its ability to handle the marketing/selling process in a dynamic, interactive way. So the question is: why hasn't Handspring reacted to any of these concerns?

I admit ignorance here. I did not come in on the ground floor of this operation so I do not know what promises Handspring made the public regarding e-commerce ability. If they swore up and down that they would have a commerce web site before now that could handle advance orders, then they clearly have not lived up to that promise � and that is worth being annoyed about. By the same token, however, perhaps the web site problems are related to their response about having been delayed a few days with their online ordering system. (Then again, that response is dated 9/18 as I recall � a few days ago.)

In any event, I�ll let you know how my dealings with Handspring fare. With a little luck, I won�t have to hear anyone say, �I told you so.� Heh.