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quote:

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Originally posted by dick-richardson
And as I re-read my hypothetical, it occurs to me that rape and incest may be absolute because of the impossibility for greater moral gain. Murder should probably go in the fuzzy section (a well placed sniper could've prevented the deaths of millions of Jews).

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Alright, I'm giving in to one of my human imperfections and writing a post in this thread.

This thread is about the ethics behind warez, bad or good, and has developed further into a thread about ethics in general. So here's my input. Take it, leave it, tear it to shreds. It's up to you.

Ethics and Morals are are individual. Individuals choose for themselves what they believe as far as what is right or wrong. Many times, they don't live up to their own morals or ethics.

However, right and wrong are not individual. This may be confusing to some of you. The explanation lies in the fact that humans were created with "free will," meaning that they make their own choices. So an individual can choose bad morals and bad ethics.

Humans are imperfect and often try to justify their imperfections to try to appear more perfect. I believe relativism falls into this description. A human chooses to do steal something from another human. This human justifies it by saying that their individual ethics and morals state that they have the right to take the something from the other human. They are justifying their imperfect act of stealing with relative rationalizing, thus appearing (to themselves) as being less imperfect.

Consider this example: Suppose I decide that I don't like you. Further suppose that my ethics and morals state that I can do whatever I want to someone I don't like. So I beat the snot out of you because there is nothing in my ethics or morals that says I am not allowed to do so. You, however, believe that there is an imperfection in my reasoning and ethics (mostly because I just beat the snot out of you) unless you were trying to get rid of that cold. So, what do you do? You believe in relativism, yet I just beat the snot out of you. If you believe in relativism, you probably also believe that someone else's morals should not be pressed on you. The problem lies right there. I just beat the snot out of you and you believe that was wrong. But you can't force that belief on me. So I ask again, what do you do?

If real relativism was widespread, the world would be ruled by chaos. No laws, no standard punishments, just what each individual believes. If that's how you believe it should be, well, you're executing your free choice, and I'm not going to try and change your mind. That's not why I'm posting. I'm posting to give my point of view.

There is one absolute, and you probably know what/who that is. I don't want to turn this thread into another type of thread so I won't get to deep in this. I don't claim to be spoken to directly, but there is a standard that has been given to us, and just about all modern laws have some root in it. I believe it was given by inspiration and it is flawless. But that's my choice. You decide what you want to do with it. Just be careful of the consequences.

[rambling now finished]
- Burns

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quote:

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Originally posted by dietrichbohn
yes.. but only for those who we grant have an "non-twisted" conscience.

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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Last edited by dick-richardson on 12-12-2001 at 07:03 PM

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Josh,

I am in total agreement with your conscience posts. Good posts.

- Burns

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quote:

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Originally posted by dick-richardson
You assume I agree that the conscience is malleable. I don't. The conscience is unimpeachable.

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Last edited by septimus on 12-12-2001 at 07:57 PM

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I ought to admit here that, philosophically speaking, I find myself in the most annoying position possible (and not just annoying to me, but also to you): Not knowing where I stand, yet knowing that I have yet to find an acceptable option.

I'm like the ancient Sophist that Plato hated and Pirsig loves: I can tear anything up, but can't build my own platform. It's not that extreme, I do have some views, but WRT other stuff all I can do is tear down.

Moral absolutism is a subset of absolutism and therefore it gets my goat for some reason. So I work to tear it down. But I can't replace it (or that would become another absolute!), so then what? You can call it a vicious circle and call me ungodly and say I'm deluding myself and so on, but the bottom line is that I can say the same thing about your beliefs....

sigh..

I'm posting this mainly as a reply to Burns. I don't necessarily hold to Relativism, but the key point you're missing is that in Relativism, morality is defined by a person's society, not by that person. Thus, there is a shade of a standard by which I can defend myself...

I suppose that were i to defend a moral standpoint, it would be Object Utilitarianism, outlined in a discussion thread that Burns and I remember well

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quote:

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Originally posted by dietrichbohn
I suppose that were i to defend a moral standpoint, it would be Object Utilitarianism, outlined in a discussion thread that Burns and I remember well

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Last post for today, then you guys can tear me up.

to bring this thread back to its original topic, I would say that Object Utilitarianism would argue that stealing software is not for the mutual benefit of all society. However, in certain extreme cases, it may be that we want to allow such theft if it does benefit society, as in the case of M$. A better solution would be for O.U. to apply its mores to M$ directly, i.e. change the society such that piracy is not longer beneficial to it...

or something like that.

rip away, I have work to do!

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quote:

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Maybe the publishers of the more expensive programs can come up with some sort of 'lease' option that would allow us to inexpensively use their software, with all features, for some period of time- possibly up to, but not including, the next upgrade?

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A lot of specialized high-end software is leased. Microsoft has been pitching the idea of doing it with all software.

Personally, I think it is a great idea. Have Application Service Providers and you simply pay for different 'packages'. You would always have the latest updates, etc. Also, they could implement a pay-per-use model, too. There's a lot of times when I needed to use an expensive application for one small job. I usually had to find someone with the program and ask them to do it for me. It'd be great to have access to an application for a small fee to use for one day, for instance.

There are a lot of infrastructure issues regarding this, of course, but it's a good idea IMHO.

quote:

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However, I believe that "Stealing a steak from a poor starving child" and "Stealing a steak from a rich cattle farmer" have important moral differences.

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I agree. You can only argue the legal points. It's quite difficult to argue moral points.

quote:

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I don't believe that using someone elses property for personal gain without compensating them is ever morally defensible.

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That's arguing a moral point. That's somewhat futile, as everyone has their own morals.

But don't let that stop you...I've argued lots of futile points on these boards.

quote:

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Toby - If you are just trying to pick a fight, go find someone else. I made it very clear that although society is a major influence on what an individual regards as moral or immorral, ultimately this is an individual viewpoint.

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oops...spoke too soon...Bradhaak already made that point...

quote:

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Ever consider that neither of us may be fully qualified to determine the other's state of mind just within the text medium?

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Oh...thanks alot toby ...take ALL of the fun out of online debates, why don't you?

quote:

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What if there is such a thing as a conscience?

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Isn't your conscience simply your (as in 'humans'') ability to to interpret empathy?

quote:

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If my theory holds true, then Robin Hood remains a hero, stealing an attackers weapon is okay, and there is a difference between pirating software from MS vs. BlueNomad.

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But it's only OK in your mind. And stealing from the rich in Sherwood forest is only 'right' in the minds of those in Sherwood forest.

A big problem in today's world is the fact that the planet is getting smaller. Different societies (and societies within societies) have completely different social norms and morals. These are colliding at an increasing rate. Fortunately, law is the mediator in all of this and we are striving for better international law. Whether that's actually doable, well, that's a whole other argument.

quote:

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And as I re-read my hypothetical, it occurs to me that rape and incest may be absolute because of the impossibility for greater moral gain.

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What is moral gain? Incest isn't an issue of morals...it's an issue of arbitrary social norms (and, to a lesser extent, biology). Rape is perfectly accepted in many societies and is deemed morally acceptable in them.

quote:

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Ethics and Morals are are individual. Individuals choose for themselves what they believe as far as what is right or wrong. Many times, they don't live up to their own morals or ethics.

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Ethics, like laws, CAN be formalized and adopted for a group. Morals less so.

quote:

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However, right and wrong are not individual. This may be confusing to some of you. The explanation lies in the fact that humans were created with "free will," meaning that they make their own choices. So an individual can choose bad morals and bad ethics.

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Right and wrong are individual concepts. Saying someone's morals are 'bad' is an individual concept.

quote:

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I just beat the snot out of you and you believe that was wrong. But you can't force that belief on me. So I ask again, what do you do?

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Of course I can't force that belief on you...that's the point. Morals are individual concepts. What I believe in is what I believe in...what you believe in is what you believe in.

We've formalized some moral and ethical points and made them into laws. In this particular case, the law comes into effect and society takes over.

quote:

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There is one absolute, and you probably know what/who that is.

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Of course...science. But science doesn't dictate our morality.

Oh wait...you're probably not talking about science, are you?

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Well, this thread may have served one useful purpose. It has caused me to reevaluate why I am participating in this board.

I have been using PalmOS devices since before the first Pilot 1000 shipped. I have had a long and generally positive experience with them. I ordered a Blue Visor deluxe the day that HS started taking orders. Up to and including the Edge, I purchased every product that HS produced. They were exciting, cutting edge products. This was even true a year ago when I joined VC.

Now people talk about other brands, how great the Treo is ( it isn't - I've used one), or when will HS come out with a new device with the next great feature. Meanwhile HandSpring has descended to the point that they introduce a new model that is the same as a previous model except for the color and expect excitement. They are even trying to turn the fact that they are using an obsolete OS version into a virtue. Even scarier is that so many nontechnical people accept this argument.

Very few people here accept the fact that HS is nearly broke. They only have cash reserves for a single large product introduction. The Visor line is basically dead. If the Treo is not an absolutely huge success HandSpring is dead. And finally, that the Treo will not be that kind of success. The last item is the only one that is just my opinion and not a pretty well documented truth.

This has had the effect of making this board a fairly sad place. This is the first thread that I have been interested enough to really participate in for quite a while. And the only reason it caught me is the fact that my income is directly related to people paying for software that I write. This accounts for my extreme viewpoint on the subject.

It then turned into a discussion of morals. This is bad enough, but now it has devolved further into philosophy behind morals. Frankly, this bored me to tears in college and bores me even more now. Every opinion is based on fundamental assumptions that can neither be proved or disproved. So every opinion is possibly right, but probably wrong. Once more - I don't care.

There is almost never news here that I don't get elsewhere and the interesting discussions aren't anymore.

I guess what I'm trying to say is thanks for the push out the door, I will be going now. I may check back periodically just to see how some of the regulars are doing, but I am done visiting regularly and posting.

Good luck to you all. It has been a fun ride, but the train is back in the station.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dietrichbohn
regarding the psychological study

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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Last edited by dick-richardson on 12-12-2001 at 08:45 PM

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DR, I don't think we're going to agree on this one. The major difference is that I believe that society can reach way way down into your depths and affect the very core of your identity. You believe that that zone is an inviolable place created by god. I could continue on displaying the research showing that sociopaths do not have a conscience at all, but you clearly are unwilling to accept the most reasonable interpretatin of that evidence. Fine. I'm sure there are subjects to which I respond in the same manner (ex. miracles).

Bradhaak: sorry to have bored you, I suppose you could have just skipped over that stuff... I did try to bring it back to warez... I guess the thing is, when somebody presents an opinion, they have to back it up. And the the counter-opinion backs theirs up. And the backing up becomes a different kind of backing up--we backed into first principles of morality. I guess for me, that's the best way to change somebody's mind, honestly engage the foundations of their beliefs.

and heck, if you've got a spicy rumor about Handspring, by all means bring it out, I'll speculate with the best of them! And your opinions about HS's viability are spot on, btw.

As for these boards veering OT, I think you may be right about HS's doludrums being one of the causes, but another cause is that for some of us, this kind of discussion isn't boring. In some cases, the veering may allow us to steer back to the original topic with a new understanding. The new understanding that I'm groping for is a new way to deal with intellectual property that allows for both the moral/justice component and the I want my music now component.

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quote:

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Frankly, this bored me to tears in college and bores me even more now.

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As Brad departs yet another is sucked into this endless debate.

I believe in absolute morality.
The "steak" example you gave?
While stealing from the poor kid is worse, both are still wrong.


The problem with relativism as I see it is that once you justify your actions using some extreme examples that most people will never ever experience, you start down a slippery slope of rationalizing anything you want to do.

Example?
What was this conversation about?
Stealing software.
Does this involve any poor kids?
Is this a "Robin Hood" scenario?
Please dont give me a what if the software could feed the world, cure cancer or some other hypothetical situation.

Relativism allows just what we see here. We can rationalize wrong actions, (stealing from big companies) by using completely unrelated examples to justify our actions.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ByinHi
Relativism allows just what we see here. We can rationalize wrong actions, (stealing from big companies) by using completely unrelated examples to justify our actions.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dietrichbohn

You may be confusing Relativism, which is an Ethical theory that allows for differing ethics in differing cultures with no judgements as to which culture is more moral, with the practice of positing hypotheticals to test general statements.

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Thanks for the correction.
I'm just a high school graduate trying to keep up with all you intellectual college educated types. Perhaps I use big words to try to sound like I belong. I hear the term "relativism" in conversation a few times an think that I know how to use it. How foolish of me.

I use a simple dictionary, it just has 1700 pages in it.

It defines relativism as:
any theory of ethics or knowledge which maintains that the basis of judgement is relative, differing according to events, persons, ect.

Don't recon I know what all that fancy dictionary talk all means but it sounds kinda like my original understanding of the term.
Seems like all these examples are designed to show that right or wrong is not absolute but differs according to the circumstances.

But then again I might be wrong.
I am just a lowly truckdriver who likes to read.
Any correction is appreciated as I love to learn.

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
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quote:

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Originally posted by ByinHi
Stealing software.
Does this involve any poor kids?
Is this a "Robin Hood" scenario?
Please dont give me a what if the software could feed the world, cure cancer or some other hypothetical situation.

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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dick-richardson
dietrichbohn, I've probably seen quite a bit of the research you're referring to. I don't see how believing that a person raised to ignore his conscience is any less logical than believing that person doesn't have one. If you'd think about it, the person woudn't necessarily believe he had a conscience - ignoring it would be as much of that person's nature as breathing. However, you may believe of me what you will.

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Sociopaths aren't exactly "raised" to not have a conscience. It is something that happens to them as a result of a combination of abuse and chemical imbalances/brain damage. They are literally unable to understand the concept of morality. Think of it as color-blindness. A color blind person knows about blue and red and could possible point them out, but only by imitating those around her. A sociopath is morality-blind in the exact same way. It unfortunately has little to do with their beliefs, the conscience simply isn't there to be ignored.

Of course, when you get down to it, "conscience" is nothing more than an abstraction.

Again, I think we're just going to have to leave it at this: I think you're idea of conscience is nuts, you think my idea of social condition is nuts.

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quote:

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Originally posted by bradhaak
If you had read further, you would have seen where I stated completely honestly and openly that I don't live up to my own standards and I don't believe that anyone can. This would fit within the concept of imperfection. I have specifically said that by my own standards, I have failed and fallen onto the side of'immoral' many times in the past and will do so many times in the future.

I don't see this as hypocritical, just slightly idealistic.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dick-richardson

The question was raised, "Is there a difference between pirating software from MS vs. a small time developer." Again I say, yes. The money I give microsoft to use their products does not go directly to the person responsible as it does with a small company. Are they both wrong? Yes. Is one more wrong? I believe so.

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Last edited by ByinHi on 12-13-2001 at 12:44 AM

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quote:

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Originally posted by ByinHi
It defines relativism as:
any theory of ethics or knowledge which maintains that the basis of judgement is relative, differing according to events, persons, ect.

Don't recon I know what all that fancy dictionary talk all means but it sounds kinda like my original understanding of the term.
Seems like all these examples are designed to show that right or wrong is not absolute but differs according to the circumstances.

But then again I might be wrong.
I am just a lowly truckdriver who likes to read.
Any correction is appreciated as I love to learn.

---

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