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What should America's national anthem be? You do not have permission to vote on this poll.
The Star Spangled Banner	22	68.75%
America the Beautiful	7	21.88%
God Bless America	1	3.13%
MY stange idea (see below)	1	3.13%
Other	1	3.13%
Total:	32 votes	100%

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Topic: Ohhhhhhh, say can you seeeeeeee. . . Pages (3): [1] 2 3 »

ernieba1
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Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Elkins Park, Pa
Posts: 577

Ohhhhhhh, say can you seeeeeeee. . .

The Star Spangled Banner. Should it be the national anthem? Some people are saying maybe not. Maybe it's too war-themed. No, take away that maybe, it IS too war themed. Should it be switched? With what?

Some ideas:
America the Beautiful
God Bless America
My Country Tis of Thee (nah, that's England's anthem)

Some unlikely ideas:
Born in the USA
I Like to Live in America (West Side Story)
This Land is Your Land

MY personal idea (which is so rediculous that I didn't even vote for it) is that there should be 2 national anthems. One during wartime (Star Spangled Banner) and one during peacetime.

Of course, changing the national anthem would make baseball games confusing. . .

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09-25-2001 02:24 AM

Yorick
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Registered: Mar 2001
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Posts: 1435

Re: Ohhhhhhh, say can you seeeeeeee. . .

quote:
Originally posted by ernieba1
Born in the USA

being that the lyrics to that song are about how poorly some have been treated by the U.S. government, I say thee nay ...

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09-25-2001 04:13 AM

VTL
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Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 604

I'm a traditionalist, so I went with the Star Spangled Banner. It works great for the times.

The only thing I'd even consider replacing it with is the Battle Hymm of the Republic, which is even more martial than the SSB.

He has loosed the fateful lightning of his terrible swift sword, His truth is marching on.

Don't sleep too soundly Osama.

09-25-2001 05:07 AM

homer
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Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:
America the Beautiful
God Bless America

Both of these have a 'god' theme. Not really what our country is all about.

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09-25-2001 05:16 AM

Burns
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Registered: Oct 2000
Location:
Posts: 206

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
America the Beautiful
God Bless America
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both of these have a 'god' theme. Not really what our country is all about.

Well, that's what the country was founded on. Plus, haven't you heard all the talk recently? Every one is calling for prayer, our President, our Congress, just about everyone I've heard on TV.

I'm still for the Star Spangled Banner. Our fathers, grandfathers, and so on fought in wars so that we could have the freedom we have today. NEVER forget that. We should be proud of those who died to give us freedom, and we should be willing to do the same for our children and their children and so on. The only thing that maintaining the Peace brings is comformity, laziness(sp?), and complacency. When we don't have our guard up, our freedom can be taken from us so easily it would make our granparents turn in their grave.

Ok, enough on the pedestal

- Burns

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09-25-2001 03:25 PM

K. Cannon
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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

quote:
Originally posted by VTL
The only thing I'd even consider replacing it with is the Battle Hymm of the Republic, which is even more martial than the SSB.

That probably wouldn't go over so big down here in Dixie.

09-25-2001 03:29 PM

Soul Raven
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Registered: Dec 1999
Location:
Posts: 239

Well, someone has to ask....

quote:
Originally posted by homer
Both of these have a 'god' theme. Not really what our country is all about.

How do you come to that conclusion?

According to the Pledge of Allegiance we are "one nation under God". Our currency proclaims "In God We Trust". The Declaration of Independance states that people are entitled to "separate and equal Station" from "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God". One of the main reasons that our country was founded so that people would be free to worship how they want without suppresion from other people or the government. Now I am going to have to track down the study, but I believe that an overwhelming majority of Americans believe in God. Our country is all about God.

I think we should leave "The Star Spangled Banner" right where it is. Our flag is a very strong symbol of the United States. From a certain point of view, our flag is the United States. Our current national anthem is basically our verbal flag.

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09-25-2001 03:40 PM

septimus
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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

Here I was, blissfully not participating in this thread, and y'all had to go and bring god into it. Great.

Listen: this country was founded on rationalistic ideals that were drawn primarily from non-theistic (wasn't ok to be atheistic yet) sources. Most of the founding fathers were Deists, meaning that they claimed that god created the universe and promptly checked out, never to return. A deist, IMO, is the closest thing you could have come to an atheist without getting burned at the stake by a fanatic (hmm, fanatics doing unreasonable things in the name of religion).

As for the pledge of allegiance, that "under god" stuff was added in the 20th century.

Ok, the statement/belief that "this country's all about god." This country is all about what we make it. The amendment says that

quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Not "Congress won't make any laws about religion, but you damn well better believe in god, or your heathen-ass is getting sent straight back across the pond."

Whatever this country has been in the past ain't the issue. It's what we wish to make of it now. I, for one, don't want to make a country where god is central, because America the state is only hampered by religion, in that its primary duty, the protection of its people and their freedoms is at odds with the idea of a state-sponsored religion or belief in a higher power.

...and I promised not to get into this. I ought to delete this, but I put so much effort into them bolds and quotes and such. Let's see if we can't get this locked down right quick.

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09-25-2001 03:51 PM

septimus
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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

Oh, and all that said, keep the anthem the way it is, war focus, god talk, and all. If nothing else, it connects us to our very real history, and reminds us of the values people have died for, and in this case died righteously.

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09-25-2001 03:53 PM

Burns
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Registered: Oct 2000
Location:
Posts: 206

quote:
dietrichbohn wrote
Listen: this country was founded on rationalistic ideals that were drawn primarily from non-theistic (wasn't ok to be atheistic yet) sources. Most of the founding fathers were Deists, meaning that they claimed that god created the universe and promptly checked out, never to return. A deist, IMO, is the closest thing you could have come to an atheist without getting burned at the stake by a fanatic (hmm, fanatics doing unreasonable things in the name of religion).

You want to list some valid sources for all this? How do you know all this? Did you know these people personally? Did the people responsible for your source of information know these people? It bothers me when people attribute their own interpretations to things without facts or knowledge of what truly was. Unless there is a direct quote from the original person or someone who knew these people intimately, I have trouble believing it.

So unless you have sources on hand, and list them, don't post junk like that. You'll just raise peoples ire (sp?)

- Burns

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09-25-2001 04:03 PM

septimus
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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

quote:
Originally posted by Burns
You want to list some valid sources for all this?

Good point. Will do, but I'm hella busy today. I can maybe do some research tonight.

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09-25-2001 04:24 PM

BertBert
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Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Greenwood, IN
Posts: 125

quote:
Originally posted by Burns

You want to list some valid sources for all this? How do you know all this? Did you know these people personally? Did the people responsible for your source of information know these people? It bothers me when people attribute their own interpretations to things without facts or knowledge of what truly was. Unless there is a direct quote from the original person or someone who knew these people intimately, I have trouble believing it.

Exhibit A might be the so-called "Jefferson Bible", a version of Scripture HEAVILY editied by none other than Thomas Jefferson so as to remove any instances not explainable by Enlightenment-era science, of which Jefferson was a great practitioner. Here is a quote from a letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush as an introduction to his Bible: "I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others, ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other." The italics are Jefferson's -- note the emphasis on human rather than divine. In fact, Jesus did claim repeatedly that He was of Divine origin (e.g. John 10:30), so Jefferson's Biblical scholarship is a little suspect.

Another example would be Thomas Paine, who is generally considered a founding father although not a "framer" of the Constitution. He was actually quite energetically anti-Christian and was a strong critic of Christianity and the Bible. Check out his pamphlet The Age of Reason for a taste. (And look at the url!)

Dietrichbohn is right -- the founding fathers believed in principles which were humanistic in nature with a deistic slant, but which were not truly Christian. There is considerable overlap between Christianity and humanism because Jesus' teachings and actions have profound social and human implications. But overlap does not mean equality. "Christian" ideas, especially in that day and age, would be based in the precepts of Jesus' divine origin and Trinitarian nature; his physical incarnation, death, and resurrection; and his intercession for humans before God. There should also be some sort of reference to the Holy Spirit. While you see references to God in documents like the Declaration of Independence and the Federalist papers, this is not to say that they are "Christian" documents. A reference to God does not make a person, or an idea, Christian. Likewise, America was not so much founded on Christian values as it was founded on values that have some degree of resonance with orthodox Christianity, but the resonance doesn't imply the true nature of those ideas.

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09-25-2001 04:58 PM

homer
Member

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

Burns said:

quote:
Well, that's what the country was founded on.

Umm...no. It was founded on FREEDOM of religion.

quote:
Plus, haven't you heard all the talk recently? Every one is calling for prayer, our President, our Congress, just about everyone I've heard on TV.

And that scares me.

Soul Raven asked:

quote:
How do you come to that conclusion?

America The Beautiful
...God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!...
...God mend thine every flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!...
...May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness
And every gain divine!...
(it goes on...)

God Bless America (This one is kind of obvious)
...God Bless America,
Land that I love.
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above....

quote:
According to the Pledge of Allegiance we are "one nation under God". Our currency proclaims "In God We Trust". The Declaration of Independance states that people are entitled to "separate and equal Station" from "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God".

Yep. And that was all written over 200 years ago, when our country was predominantly white anglo-saxon christian. Nothing wrong with that, but we are a much more diverse society now and part of that is BECAUSE we offer freedom of religion in this country. I'm saying that changing the national anthem now to one with Christian themes goes against the last 200 years of our country fighting for freedoms.

quote:
One of the main reasons that our country was founded so that people would be free to worship how they want without suppresion from other people or the government.

Yea. Right. That's what I'm saying.

Wouldn't bringing God into the governement be suppressing all those other people in this country that maybe don't believe in God?

quote:
Now I am going to have to track down the study, but I believe that an overwhelming majority of Americans believe in God.

Go find it. I'd like to see it. I remember studies where they asked if you believe 'in A god' or 'in a higher being' which is not the same as asking if they believe in god.

quote:
Our country is all about God.

Explain, please.

Dietrichbohn added:

quote:
Here I was, blissfully not participating in this thread, and y'all had to go and bring god into it. Great.

Well, how else can we have fun in discussion board?

Burns replied:

quote:
Unless there is a direct quote from the original person or someone who knew these people intimately, I have trouble believing it.

"The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

-- President George Washington, in The Treaty of Tripoli

And Burns, you need to uphold the same criteria...if you want us to believe that our nation was founded in the name of god, then we need some facts from your end of the argument.

And, I should add, I have nothing against God. I like the guy (or gal). It is just very important that our country not loose sight of the fact that we are a democracy NOT ruled by a religious monarchy.

I'll emd with one of my favorite quotes:

"By the year 2000, we will, I hope, raise our children to believe in human potential, not God."

-- Gloria Steinem, from "Peter's Quotations"

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09-25-2001 05:16 PM

homer
Member

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

P.S. Anyone know why the only time we really sing the national anthem (outside of patriotic holidays) is at the beginning of sporting events?

People seem to get weirdly patriotic right before watching a hockey game. That always puzzled me.

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09-25-2001 05:23 PM

sowens
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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 284

quote:
Originally posted by BertBert

In fact, Jesus did claim repeatedly that He was of Divine origin (e.g. John 10:30), so Jefferson's Biblical scholarship is a little suspect.

This assumes that the Bible can be taken literally, and not as allegory or politically motivated, which some modern theologians now believe.

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09-25-2001 06:18 PM

BertBert
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Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Greenwood, IN
Posts: 125

quote:
Originally posted by sowens

This assumes that the Bible can be taken literally, and not as allegory or politically motivated, which some modern theologians now believe.

Whether you believe that this is true depends (to some degree) on your view of the Bible. The fact that it is in the text does not, just like the Flood and the parting of the Red Sea are in the text although you may or may not actually believe these things really happened. My point was that Jefferson was claiming that Jesus never claimed divine origin when in fact He did, which is like claiming that the Bible doesn't say the Flood happened when in fact it does say so.

[Edited to improve that last sentence.]

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Mark 12:28-31

09-25-2001 06:22 PM

septimus
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Posts: 1758

BertBert, you are my hero.

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09-25-2001 06:57 PM

sowens
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Location: Rochester, NY
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quote:
Originally posted by BertBert

Whether you believe that this is true depends (to some degree) on your view of the Bible. The fact that it is in the text does not, just like the Flood and the parting of the Red Sea are in the text although you may or may not actually believe these things really happened. My point was that Jefferson was claiming that Jesus never claimed divine origin when in fact He did, which is like claiming that the Bible doesn't say the Flood happened when in fact it does say so.

Since we're dealing with facts, where are the facts that back up your assertion that the quote from John was a literally what Jesus said and not created by John for some purpose of his own? To the best of my knowledge no writings directly from Jesus ever existed, and the contents of the New Testament were written 30+ years after Jesus died. So, at best, the writers of the New Testament were getting the information from oral tradition that was one or two generations removed from Jesus' actual teachings. It must also be remembered that the writers of the New Testament had the job of spreading Christianity around the known world, so it was in their favor to modify the story to their needs. Also, let's not forget the rather major rewrite the Catholic church did to the Bible back in the middle ages, where books were added, modified, or even deleted in order to create a cohesive doctrine that would help them spread the word. Do you honestly believe that a single quote from Jesus, assuming it was written down originally, made it through that many politically-motivated edits completely unscathed?

Since everyone seems to want sources, this is from the Frontline special "From Jesus to Christ" on PBS. One of the best bits of journalism I've seen on the subject of religion, ever.

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09-25-2001 07:29 PM

BertBert
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Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Greenwood, IN
Posts: 125

quote:
Originally posted by sowens
Since we're dealing with facts, where are the facts that back up your assertion that the quote from John was a literally what Jesus said and not created by John for some purpose of his own?

I did not claim that the quote from John was literal. My statements were not assertions of the truth, historical validity, etc. of Biblical statements but merely an indication that a particular statement does in fact appear in the Bible, in this case in John 10:30. For evidence that this is so, just open up the Bible or click here. Jefferson said that no instance of Jesus claiming His divinity exists, and that's where I faulted him.

An analogy: Suppose the newspaper runs an article that quotes President Bush as having said something. And suppose that I claim that the article was not in the newspaper. In so doing I have not said anything about the accuracy of the quote. You can show me the newspaper and plainly prove my assertion wrong. Whether the quote is accurate or not is an argument requiring a lot more study and may not have a resolution at all.

Now, if Jefferson (being a pretty clever person) was actually saying, "OK, the Bible does record Jesus claiming his divinity, but I don't believe the Bible", then things are different, and I would not fault him on his knowledge of the Bible. Indeed, I'd credit him with knowing what John 10:30 actually says. But he didn't appear to say that -- his words to Dr. Rush certainly don't say that.

Sorry to the rest of the board for dragging this out, but this is the only interesting thing I've done all day.

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Mark 12:28-31

09-25-2001 09:15 PM

septimus
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Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

quote:
Originally posted by sowens
To the best of my knowledge no writings directly from Jesus ever existed, and the contents of the New Testament were written 30+ years after Jesus died.

Later than that. There's evidence that the writers of Mark, Luke, and Matthew had access to a document that was written about 30 or so years post-Jesus. Their writings came much later. As for dates, well, I'm talking 100 or so. If you want exact dates, I'll have to research. This is just my recollection from my early Xn history course.

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09-25-2001 09:55 PM

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