Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
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quote:

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Originally posted by dick-richardson
Since Jesus is on earth waiting for the sign from God to smite us all, which pda is He using the interim?

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Apple Newton, obviously!

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on the free will thing, because I can't get out a solid definition of what I'm reaching for. Suffice to say that I disagree with equating limitation with control, and related to that I feel that free will has less (nothing?) to do with a set of limitations than with a set of attributes/abilites belonging to a conscious being. So on both point you're right, but I feel like I've always been aiming at the same thing and missing, not changing targets.

Re semantics: Yes, but then again, we talking about how we understand and believe things pertaining to the most important issues anybody can talk about!

Re closing the thread: I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. Shut'er down if ya want...

re "It is possible that an omnipotent god exists": If the thread's still here in a day or two, I'll trot out my argument from college. Ironically, that sentence happens to be the first premise, the one that sets the argument up for a reductio ad absurdum!

LONG LIVE THE BUDDHA!

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Oh my...I take a break from the 'Off Topic' forum for a couple of weeks and see what happens!!!

Some of you might be interested in this write-up: The Seven Deadly Arguments, which highlights some of the most common rat-holes in religious discussions (assuming, of course, that there exist non-rat-hole religious discussions, the proof of which is beyond the scope of this paper). It's fairly entertaining reading, even if you're not one to follow their advice of simply avoiding these arguments.

Oh, and for those interested in the non-religious aspects of buddhism, I recommend Stephen Bachelor's book, 'Buddhism Without Beliefs'. The first chapter of the book is the best, and contains some real gems like: "Ethical integrity is not moral certainty. A priori certainty about right and wrong is at odds with a changing and unreliable world, where the future lies open, waiting to be born from choices and acts. Such certainty may be consoling and strengthening but it can blunt awareness of the uniqueness of each ethical moment."

Registered: Mar 2001
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obvious stupid off-topic to the off-topic topic question:
Is Stephen Bachelor, author of 'Buddhism Without Beliefs,' married?
bah dum bump.

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Rob, the link was awesome and your avatar is hilarious. Are you Jesus?

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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Registered: Sep 1999
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Wow, I thought this thread was just about Josh's bad day. That will teach me to ignore an OT thread ...

quote:

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
This is a response to both Yorick and D-R.
I guess I wasn't making myself clear with my belief. I don't think that it's possible to be a Christian and murder someone, get away with it via your prior relationship with Jesus and go to heaven.
It is possible though, to have commited a murder whilst an unbeliever, find Christ and be saved, and then go to heaven.

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The university that I received my Bachelor's degree from is faith-based, and I have vivid memories of the people that were incredulous that that Texas woman that hatcheted her family was going to Heaven. Saul>Paul is an excellent example of God's grace. Some of the people were shocked that they could "live" next to a former killer in Heaven. When I get to Heaven, I'm not going to be thinking about anything that I did on earth, nor about what others did.

As for the free will conversation, I don't see how you can have free will and no evil. Adam and Eve had a choice: eat the fruit or not. They chose to disobey God and faced the consequences. Perhaps there was a way for God to create a universe with free will and no evil. He chose not to. I'm not God and am not going to argue with his choice.

I've also read about those (Adam Smith?) who said that we essentially have no free will. When we are born, we have a clean slate. As we grow up, parents, friends, etc. write to that board, shaping the decisions that we later make. If I make a decision based on experience, am I using free will?

God has a plan for everything. The part of the Bible I had the most trouble understanding was the Plagues. Why did God "harden" the Pharoah's heart? Was he changing the Pharoah's mind, or allowing Satan to whisper evil thoughts to him?

From Deitrich:But that's the whole conundrum of Christianity. God saves, but god also made it necessary to be saved. The Xn says "no, god didn't make it necessary, we did by choosing evil." But who made evil a choice in the first place? And then think about the last place, the rapture/armageddon/final battle/judgement day/yougettheidea. Isn't that when everything is set right? So all the evil in the world turns out to be "for the best." So was it really evil, if it was there to teach us and to make our lives fuller and more exciting? God may will evil, sure, but for an Xn, isn't evil nothing more than good delayed?

The reason that it is necessary to become saved is because we all have sinned at one point or another and cannot therefore enter Heaven without being forgiven of all our sins. If you're making the arguement that the evil in the world is for the best, then I guess God did make a free will universe w/o evil. So there.

BTW, I suggest all of you see the Kevin Smith Movie Dogma. One of the few movies that I have seen in recent memory that made me think.

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James Hromadka
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quote:

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Originally posted by JHromadka:
[...] I've also read about those (Adam Smith?) who said that we essentially have no free will. [...]

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The only Adam Smith I know of was an economist, and this doesn't sound like him. His most well-known theory is the Invisible Hand Theory, but it doesn't really have much to do with free will and people. It basically says that businesses in a free market acting in their own selfish best interests will wind up doing what's best for society. The catch is that rarely does a truly free and open market exist.

quote:

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BTW, I suggest all of you see the Kevin Smith Movie Dogma. One of the few movies that I have seen in recent memory that made me think.

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The only thing it made me think about was that Kevin Smith seems to steal some of his ideas from Sam Kinison as well as his fashion sense.

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

quote:

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Originally posted by JHromadka
Perhaps there was a way for God to create a universe with free will and no evil. He chose not to. I'm not God and am not going to argue with his choice.

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Why not? I'm a big ol fan of questioning God's choices!

quote:

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God has a plan for everything. The part of the Bible I had the most trouble understanding was the Plagues. Why did God "harden" the Pharoah's heart? Was he changing the Pharoah's mind, or allowing Satan to whisper evil thoughts to him?

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ARG! My best philo prof wrote an excellent article interpreting that passage though a philosophical lens. I'll see if it was published: it should ease your mind.

quote:

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If you're making the arguement that the evil in the world is for the best, then I guess God did make a free will universe w/o evil. So there.

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I was waiting to somebody to notice that! That's my point, I dislike Xty because it does not allow for ultimately bad things, like that prehistoric baby doe wandering into lava. That's a tragedy. I have a stronger belief in realy tragedy than I do in god.

As long as we're suggesting books, I suggest everybody read God: A Biography by Jack Miles. Miles is a Jesuit priest, and he uses the bible as the sole basis for a literary character study: god. I may have suggested it before, but I will again, it's GREAT!

D

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quote:

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Originally posted by dick-richardson
Rob, the link was awesome and your avatar is hilarious. Are you Jesus?

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Hmm...well, considering how many people are actively disputing the existence of God (and by extension, Jesus as son-of-God), I had better say no, since my self-esteem takes enough of a beating at work that I don't need to go home and read all about how I don't really exist on the visorcentral forums.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rob
Hmm...well, considering how many people are actively disputing the existence of God (and by extension, Jesus as son-of-God), I had better say no, since my self-esteem takes enough of a beating at work that I don't need to go home and read all about how I don't really exist on the visorcentral forums.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dietrichbohn
Come now, I don't dispute that Jesus existed. I don't even dispute that Jesus was the son of/identical to god.

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Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:

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Originally posted by Toby
That tears it. You're out of the heretic's club.[B]Well, just as long as you don't join the Judean People's Front.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dietrichbohn
What if I say that I am also the son of/identical to god? Can I get back in?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Toby
What star sign are you?

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quote:

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Originally posted by dietrichbohn
I'm a Taurus. I'm 6'3, blonde hair, blue eyes, I like long, romantic walks on the beach...

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Ah well, you can't be Jesus then. He, Brian, and myself (like most Messiahs) are all Capricorns. I also have in my favor that I'm related to Jean Chauvin (I refuse to use his assumed name).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Toby
I also have in my favor that I'm related to Jean Chauvin (I refuse to use his assumed name).

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You win in the obscure references game. All I can find is a bunch of random genealogies...

...I see your sig:

quote:

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"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

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is very fitting!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Toby
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

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I like this quote, too, although I have to admit that T.J.'s assertion about God approving of reason is just as much wishful thinking as the claim that God prefers 'blindfolded fear' (in fact, for those who heed the bible, there are many more examples of the latter than the former). I happen to subscribe to the same sort of wishful thinking, but am mindful of the fact that it's based on believing in some transcendant notion of fairness or elegance in design that even God is constrained or at least influenced by. Most religious people probably think that this idea that God has to play by certain rules (in particular, rules that seem reasonable or just to us puny humans) is either laughable, pitiable, or sufficient grounds for beating you into a bloody pulp.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dietrichbohn
You win in the obscure references game. All I can find is a bunch of random genealogies...

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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

Toby, your assertion is a blatant fabrication. Everyone knows that Aries embodies the quintessential messianic temperament.

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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

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Christ (and Brian) was born on/about 12/25. ergo, a Capricorn (12/22-1/19).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick
Christ (and Brian) was born on/about 12/25. ergo, a Capricorn (12/22-1/19).

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James Hromadka
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