Registered: Nov 1999
Location: bright side of the moon.
Posts: 996

quote:

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Originally posted by bkbk
Hoser -
Dude, no offense (and feel free to check w/others), but I can hardly make any sense of your posting for the 1st few paragraphs.
You're right, the legal system is atrocious.
But people MUST have justice - it is likely the PARAMOUNT value here on earth (whether to be free from fraud, violent crime or racism, for ex.)....

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__________________
Ever feel like the train left while you were busy reading the paper?

Stealth-Mod.

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Plant City, FL
Posts: 385

quote:

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Originally posted by bkbk
And you, as a human being, are essentially diametrically opposite of Innogear "as a human being." (So it is, in fact, pretty preposterous that you've come to their defense. Though I can see where you may have confused: "They're developers," for "They're developers, just like me." They are NOT "just like you." THAT is their PROBLEM.)

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Actually, I'm not coming to the defense of Innogear. All I'm trying to do is oppose the idea of suing a company because you don't like the way they do business. In fact the very idea is just as outmoded as the "business model" that you are so outraged by.

I don't think anyone will disagree with the assertion that Innogear made a mistake announcing the six-pack so early in it's development. And I am quite certain that Innogear is just as aware of that as you and me. Innogear has paid for, and will continue to pay for that mistake - and they know it. Even if you win, what would a lawsuit accomplish? Aside from lining the pockets of all the lawyers along the way, there is nothing to be gained. Innogear doesn't need a judge to tell them they screwed up ... they already know it. And fines and punative damages won't do anything but raise prices and scare other companies away from undertaking bold and potentialy risky projects.

I will agree with you that one of the great things about the "Palm" economy is that it has opened the doors to a host of new entrepranuers, the majority of which understand that in our increasingly wired world, new business models are necessary to succeed. A great many Palm based companies have managed to catch the Cluetrain. But there are always going to be players who want to do things the old way. You can't twist their arms and force them to play by the new rules. You just have to be patient and let the market deal with them. And it will.

And people like you can use your voice to help that process along. But don't waste your voice making threats or talking to lawyers. Try to open a constructive dialog with the people calling the shots that you don't like. Tell them (constructively) what they did and why you think it's wrong. If they say yes, we srewed up, we'll try to do better next time, then you have to take them at their word and give them a chance to change. If they won't listen, then reach out to the user community and tell them so. A strong voice presenting facts and well resoned arguments can slice right through a corporate "spin" machine and let users see what's really going on inside.

If you said "Company X engaged in deceptive marketing tactics (and it was actually true) and I urge you not to invest in them or buy their products" then you'd get a lot more people that agreed with you. And those that didn't would be forced to dispute the "facts" (deceptive marketing) and not your suggested course of action. That type of discourse would reach a lot more users. Not to mention the fact that it's bound to make it to the ears of the investors that a hardware startup so desperately needs if they are to survive the expense of introducing a new product.

The Cluetrain is for companies and their customers. Companies have to realize that they don't have to hide from their customers. Customers have to realize that they don't need the courts to exercise their power

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<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>

Registered: Jun 2000
Location:
Posts: 594

Okay, DUDES, a lot of stuff going on here:
I have to take a good number of shortcuts, generally, because (as I hope you can tell) I'm a fairly complete thinker...
...I'd better explain that (just in case someone doesn't get it, and needlessly attempts to rebut it - and also, so those of us the crowd who as of this writing who may have never genuinely "thought about it" now will):
2 SERIOUSLY COMMON THINKING FLAWS:
(mostly "practiced / perpetrated" by the kind of "ordinary, mainstream" folks you'll catch nightly on "Street Smarts" or, just as embarrassingly to our country, people & educ. system, Jay Leno's ever-more-frequent (it's a popular feature) "JayWalking" segments - but, sadly, sometimes found in even people "who should know / have been educated better" such as engineers, lawyers, doctors and judges; just BE ON THE LOOKOUT FOR IT, and DON'T PRESUME IT'S NOT THERE)
1) Failing to think-through the sequence from the alpha to the omega. Some people think, say, from A-Q and erroneously believe they've gotten to Z. Then you'll have those who start at G and go to Z, erroneously believing they started at A. Some think from D through W; once more, they believe they've been complete.

THE MISSING STEPS WILL GENERALLY HELP THEM "CONVENIENTLY" OMIT / RE-DEFINE THE PART OF REALITY THEY WISH THEY DID NOT SEE / HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

2) "Skipping steps" in the sequence; going from A-G picking up at L and ending at Z (or maybe just Q).

AGAIN, YOU CAN LARGELY *COUNT ON* THE "CONVENIENTLY MISSING STEPS" TO BE SELF-SERVING.



I'm sorry, guys, I had / have TONS more to write. (Including rebutting a number of thoughts, point-by-point.) Really, really, really relvant stuff - and, as it my habit of thinking: not just to us here and now, but using my ability to dove-tail it into the larger issues that face humanity as a larger whole. (I swear, I'm not "dangling a chimerical carrot in front of you, in the hopes you'll 'plead for me to write some more'" or anything as silly, dumb & ridiculous. I just really need to expend my naturally limited energies in a more durable form, to an even broader aud.)

I am heartened though, to see this little thread is nearly at 2,500 views, and hope people have gained from the start on the many topics we've raised here.

Keep an eye out for these subjects in the future, and regardless of my "User Name" (JAMES, permit me to suggest you allow people to POST WITHOUT REGISTERING, otherwise you are ALWAYS essentially censoring people, whether or not you or they are consciously or subconsciously aware of it), you can largely count on the fact that it will be this author, as I'm generally quite well read, and know many of my thoughts to be fairly unique / at the cutting edge.

Feel free to develop / investigate them yourself to any extent you desire, I won't feel "plagiarized" or claim any intellectual property rights; more likely, I'll just go on writing about other things.

Thanks again for reading, and your interest.

Registered: Sep 2000
Location:
Posts: 19

I agee that if you start with premise "A" and use logic then you should get to "X". I however disagree with your starting point - instead I start with "How have you (or others) been damaged by the delays?" I have not been damaged by the delay for the Six-Pack. Therefore how can I ask for justice when I have not been injured? Maybe others can enlighten with a discussion of damages they experienced by Innogear's delays? In general, lawers seek not justice, but instead seek to win the case for their clients.
I don't intent to purchase from Innogear - the company appears to have let the marketing types run wild without consulting the engineer types. I've seen this a couple of times in my career - with bad endings.

__________________
GreyWolf

Registered: Jun 2000
Location:
Posts: 594

Try to remember that completeness would require getting to "Z," not merely "X."
I'm watching "PrimeTime" right now. Don't worry if you can't turn it on before it ends, shortly - the episode is destined to be a mammoth classic.
Two teen boys' minds are being unmercifully warped by malevolent (foster?) parents, who perpetually distort their worldview with LIES.
Luckily, IT'S ALL ON VIDEOTAPE (1,500 Hrs., they agreed to let PrimeTime run perpetually in their homes), so the steady lies of the parents are caught.

Your "understanding" of "damages" is tainted by our sadly corrupt lawyers, legal system & judges ... as they exist TODAY, BEFORE they have been improved by UBIQUITOUS VIDEO.

Some on this board have noted: "Well, what damages have we suffered, other than Innogear infuriating us?" SHOULD THERE BE NO PENALTY FOR INFURATING US? "Well, I suppose these malevolent practices will ultimately force them out of business, sooner or later, and that will be enough." I DON'T AGREE.

The law seems quite arbitrary when it "permits" the "consideration" of PAIN AND SUFFERING. I CAN'T WAIT UNTIL A.I. EXPERT SYSTEMS REPLACE ALL JUDGES (SO THE BILLIONS OF CONSIDERATIONS THAT *NEED* TO BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT IN ANY GIVEN CASE ACTUALLY *ARE*

WHY is U.V. so important? It is well-settled that people w/psych. problems (or that CAUSE them, like inveterate liars) have an incorrect "picture of reality," and conversely if you fix this picutre, they can be cured. And there's unlikely any better way to see this picture than candid video.

THIS IS WHY WE CANNOT ALLOW THE CORRUPT PERSONS PRESENTLY RUNNING THE COURTS TO "DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES" WHETHER "OR NOT" THEY WILL "DECIDE" IF THEY WILL "ALLOW" THEMSELVES TO BE VIDEOTAPED.

AT THE VERY LEAST, WE WILL CATCH THEIR MISTAKES, IF NOT THEIR OUTRIGHT DEMENTED PREJUDICES (ESP. AGAINST PEOPLE OF COLOR, AS THAT SEEMS TO BE "A FAVORITE MISTAKE" THEY "LIKE TO MAKE" - BUT ... "WITHOUT PREJUDICE," OF COURSE.)

Yes, today in Monaco & Britain, they likely HAVE NOT GONE FAR ENOUGH, and likely need to up the # of cameras in the country from 100,000 (which I believe is the current figure in both countries) to 1,000,000 ... or 10,000,000 ... WHATEVER IT TAKES.

THE SAFETY AND SENTIENCE OF EVERY LIVING MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD IS NO JOKE. AND NO EXPENSE SHOULD BE SPARED IN *ABSOLUTELY ENSURING* IT.

"PrimeTime" just put up a stat on the screen: 60% of America's children are needlessly mentally abused. (I'll extrapolate and say "maybe" this leads to drug, alcohol, marital, family, crime, etc. problems ... but this is just my pathetic little IMHO, of course.)

Innogear's perpetual sick lies taint EVERYONE who is forced to tolerate them under our "current judicial system" (which needs radical improvement, as anyone with even the tiniest close-up knowledge of it will affirm), as EVERY single LIE by ANY kind of "AUTHORITY FIGURE," which unfortunately most people are "weaned" by capitalism to perceive them as.

Again, it's not just the perpetual lying about deadlines, but a deceptive web site, with a faked image of a prototype (someone mentioned "seeing the real thing" at a show - but did it WORK? or was it an empty shell?).

When the image of O.J. on the cover of Time magazine was simply doctored by a little bit of darkening, the outcry was quite intense. This is worse - making something out of nothing. (If the people at Innogear were "good people," they could simply have added explanatory text, such as: "Non-working proposed prototype; actual SB may have different dimensions, etc.") Problem solved.

It's a simple matter of communication - something Innogear has proven time and again (among other ways, by not updating their website for MONTHS ON END, which most of us could do in SECONDS FLAT). I'm sure it's hard for Mr. Kessler to relate to - because, with a good heart, mind & soul he just PRESUMES this of others (even I still make this mistake).

BUT JUST LIKE THE SIMPLE GAUGE OF SOMEONE'S MENTAL HEALTH IS THE AMOUNT OF TRUTH OR LIES IN THEIR HEARTS, MINDS AND SOULS ... ANOTHER SIMPLE GAUGE IS THEIR LEVEL OF COMMUNICATIVENESS.

Sure, it will seem self-serving here, but if you go out into the world you will see that time & again, the most malevolent people have a philosophy: "NEVER EXPLAIN, NEVER APOLOGIZE."

THIS IS A LARGE PART OF THE EVIL COURT SYSTEM WE NOW HAVE. NO "LAWS" (WHICH ARE "MADE UP," OF COURSE) OR "OPINIONS" ARE EXPLAINED ... AS IF THE CITIZENS ARE "NOT WORTH" EXPLAINING THINGS TO. ("We, the Big People," the judges, lawyers and politicians seem to think, "will handle these matters ... and don't you worry your pretty little heads about them.")

As usual, LIES OF OMISSION are just as devastating (if not more so) than incorrect data. (Let's say a tire co. "forgets" to tell you treads separate at high speeds, and you'll crash, and die.)

I can "take it light" when there are light issues involved; this is not one of them.

The more lies we tolerate around us, the worse off we all are. It hurts us, our children, and everyone else. It infects our entire society (SEX, DRUGS AND ROCK 'N ROLL! SAID THE 60s) and has REAL POWER TO DESTROY. And it's insidious, especially when "funny guys" like Cheech & Chong joke about the issue. Which is one reason why most people in 2000 still "can't see this," though it's well-settled among top authorities who've studied these subjects.

I'm not surpised it's "hard to see" for many of you.

I could list a couple of the key reference materials, but, as I mention, I'll go for more depth & breadth elsewhere when I have more time & space (probably a book; maybe on-line; maybe I'll port it to PDAs; in fact, it's almost a guarantee).

But ... you made me respond after I thought I'd finished posting to this thread, once & for all ... and now I'm a liar!

Everyone lies, by the way, probably daily. (You see the "funny" sitcom episodes about this every now and again - but "making light" of a subject the Bible singles out by condemning Satan as the "Father of Lies" ... doesn't seem like a very bright thing for our society / world to do.) The key is to keep it down to an absolute minimum, like 1, if you must (not to hurt someone's feelings, or something). The Hitlers and Don Kings of the world tell dozens of lies per day.

[Edited by bkbk on 11-30-2000 at 11:57 PM]

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Texan in Calgary for a while
Posts: 1361

quote:

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Originally posted by bkbk
Everyone lies, by the way, probably daily. (You see the "funny" sitcom episodes about this every now and again - but "making light" of a subject the Bible singles out by condemning Satan as the "Father of Lies" ... doesn't seem like a very bright thing for our society / world to do.) The key is to keep it down to an absolute minimum, like 1, if you must (not to hurt someone's feelings, or something). The Hitlers and Don Kings of the world tell dozens of lies per day.

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__________________
James Hromadka
Old Friend

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Plant City, FL
Posts: 385

quote:

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Originally posted by bkbk
Yes, today in Monaco & Britain, they likely HAVE NOT GONE FAR ENOUGH, and likely need to up the # of cameras in the country from 100,000 (which I believe is the current figure in both countries) to 1,000,000 ... or 10,000,000 ... WHATEVER IT TAKES.

THE SAFETY AND SENTIENCE OF EVERY LIVING MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD IS NO JOKE. AND NO EXPENSE SHOULD BE SPARED IN *ABSOLUTELY ENSURING* IT.

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<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
Posts: 790

I don't think we're going to solve this...

I don't think we're going to solve this in this forum.

As far as I can tell, no other user has stepped up to support bkbk's call for ubiquitous video as the worldwide solution to crime. Additionally, bkbk's posts suggest to me that he is not likely to drop his belief and embrace the civil liberty view.

My suggestions:

To bkbk:
Why don't you gather all your thoughts on the matter of ubiquitous video. Distill them into a concice yet complete manifesto. When you have done this, create a new topic in the Off Topic forum which either shows the full text of your ideas or (better, IMHO) posts a link to a web page that you've set up to showcase those ideas.

To the rest of us:
Let's stop trying to convince bkbk to give up a belief in something that he obviously feels very deeply.

__________________
Jeff

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

Jumping in late as usual (a day late and a dollar short - that sort of thing), but that's as is. I do NOT want courts deciding for me what is good/right. I can and will make those decisions on my own. I don't need/want morality shoved down my throat by people who think they have the education to make my decisions for me. As much as I want to know what is good for me is as much as I am going to learn to make an educated decision.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Registered: Jun 2000
Location:
Posts: 594

Sorry for the delay / I'll try to keep it brief.
(It's just that there are so many subjects to address by now, it's tough.)
It's time to lay out a couple of the resources that I am essentially referencing when I cover a lot of the material here.
There is more detail I would like to give (and still would like to address a number of points in a number of posts here to date), but that would be way too much material. ALSO PLEASE NOTE THAT THE REASON I BEGAN TO POST ABOUT "SKIPPING IDEAS" IN AN "A-Z SEQUENCE" IS I'VE HAD TO DO SO A BIT HERE, THOUGH THE GAPS SHOULD BE FAIRLY APPARENT AND EASY TO FILL IN. As has been discussed, I plan to lay it out as completely as I can in a more durable form, probably across many media (incl. the Web).
But I can't give you a time-frame, and indeed as life is not guaranteed to any of us, I could be in a tragic accident or something at any time.

James, asking "What is a lie?" is a good question. A number of things are, and a key question is the TELEOLOGY involved. (A crucial key to the question is reflecting on why, in 2000, are not lies patent & obvious? Answer: they rarely are.)
You can find one of the best summations I know (and likely that there exists) in M. Scott Peck, M.D.'s landmark work, "PEOPLE OF THE LIE: THE HOPE FOR HEALING HUMAN EVIL," written in 1983.
I'm sorry not to take the time to get a URL from Amazon.com, but I know there are good synopses of this book (and have made notations there myself), and his #1 N.Y. Times best-seller of all-time, "THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED: A NEW PSYCHOLOGY OF LOVE, TRADITIONAL VALUES AND SPIRITUAL GROWTH."
(Most of what you ever hear about "spiritual growth" today can be found to have antecedents in T.R.L.T., though everyone seems loath to actually admit it. IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THEM, YOU'RE NOT QUITE HUMAN, IN THE MOST FULL SENSE, PARTIC. P.O.T.L. [which "doesn't get started UNTIL PAGE 40, I'm sorry to report]. IT COMES WITH A SERIOUS WARNING AT THE FRONT OF THE BOOK; PLEASE HEED IT.)

I'll assume you're busy people, so can tip you off that though you should read EVERY WORD of T.R.L.T., if you're "busy now" please at least read the 1st 10pp. of the 1st section ("Discipline") and the 1st 30pp. of the section on "Love."

Dr. Peck himself cites (in T.R.L.T., I believe) that "legitimate" shortcuts are okay, as long as you observe that caveat.
So permit me to tip you off that he more recently wrote "THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED AND BEYOND," which is something of a compilation of all of his works, but especially these 1st 2 that he pub., so you may want to pick it up first.
A GOOD WAY TO JUDGE A GOOD BOOK IS THAT IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO ACQUIRE SECOND-HAND. The 1st 2 are. But strangely, I've seen the more recent one half-off from time to time at Barnes & Noble, etc.

I TEND TO FAVOR DR. PECK'S MOST SUCCINCT DEFINITION OF HUMAN EVIL: "MILITANT IGNORANCE." If you lie to your wife, or Innogear lies to us, once or twice ... well, that might be just ignorance. But if you MILITANTLY do it AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN ... as you yet HEAR OF and MONITOR the PAIN you CONTINE to CREATE in OTHERS ... as you yet have at your disposal the kind of INSTANTANEOUS COMMUNICATION to these people provided by the Internet ... well, this just CONTINUES to be LESS and LESS FORGIVEABLE.

James, I did read through the Innogear interview you posted a link to (for the 1st time), and I recognize you have a hard job -- balancing asking "the hard questions" of these people, on our behalf ... while at the same time, wanting to be as fair to them as you can, and needing not to alienate them too much (by appearing too contemnatory, which we can do more easily on the board here), to keep the lines of comm. open so you can continue to do so in the future.
That being said, I felt they were just making excuse after excuse, speaking doge after doge, and just generally not giving you a straight answer.
As people have noted, this will probably impact their sales, potential stock, etc. But as I've written about before, this is hardly the extent of their offenses against us, essentially the core of their potential customers.
Did anyone say: "militant ignorance"?

BUT THE ABOVE ARE NOT THE ONLY ANTI-REALITY / ANTI-LIFE CONSIDERATIONS. CRUCIAL, IN THE WORLD WE LIVE IN, IS SOMETHING I CALL "THE DRUNK-DRIVER" EXAMPLE -- WHICH, SADLY, DR. PECK DOES NOT SEEM TO CONSIDER.
What this means is that our courts currently (and erroneously) focus on INTENT.
But they miss a crucial consideration when they fail to see that INTENT is not always there -- but a CRIME IS STILL COMMITTED (like when a drunk driver kills someone, or a tire company "forgets" to issue a recall on DEADLY TIRES).

D.Kessler, please note I've read your B.Franklin quote, and thank you for sourcing it. (I was heartened by the "clue" link you provided earlier, but did not have time to mention it. I hope it is pretty obvious that I'm not a person who needed to read through the "95 Precepts" posted there, etc., as they virtually describe me to a T. But it's a great resource to send others to who are not presently enlightened as to them.)
B.F., of all people, discovered elec.
Nothing on our Earth would get very far w/out elec.
B.F. was a man of great wisdom.
He would surely know, that even if he (and a dozen or so other guys) were "incredibly blessed," their words would likely not stand forever.
(Even Aristotle's words, which ENDED ALL ARGUMENT for 1,000 years after his death, have been supplanted in a number of spheres -- though, philosophically, he's probably still #1. PLEASE NEVER FEAR READING ARISTOTLE, as his goal was clarity and simplicity [EINSTEIN: "EVERYTHING SHOULD BE MADE AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE. BUT NOT SIMPLER." DID SOMEONE SAY "SIMPLY PALM"?], not the kind of abstruse obfuscation a number of others seem to enjoy.)

I'M A SUPER-PATRIOT MYSELF, so you can believe that if I've been driven to a strong devotion to the "U.V." concept, things have become pretty dire. CHECK WITH DEPTH, the lawyers, courts, judges and police activities (WHICH LARGELY GO UN-CHECKED, UN-DOCUMENTED, UN-CHALLENGED, EVEN IN 2000), and you'll see this to be the case.
As everyone's carrying gadgets now, and chips, etc. have gotten so microscopic, the march of "U.V." and ubiquitous photography, etc. is likely unstoppable by now.

Of course you guys should presume that someone who could write the words here has read (or would know about, but I have read) "1984."
Orwell inverted the date, though; it was written in 1948 (and pub. in 1949, I believe).
Long story short: again, this is quite a while back.
And I have a few criticisms of the work, here and there. I concur w/probably 90%, but people mistake THAT IMAGINARY WORLD IN THE FUTURE...
...FOR OUR WORLD.
But we've BESTED Orwell, though few seem to have noticed. Since almost all of us have PCs now ... OUR COMPUTERS CAN WATCH BIG BROTHER, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
IN AMERICA, THE PEOPLE ARE KING, LET'S NOT FORGET THAT -- OR PERMIT THE GOV. TO "FORGET IT FOR US."
WE *****OWN***** THE GOV'T.
*****NOT***** THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
*****WE****** TELL THE GOV'T. WHAT TO DO.
*****NOT***** THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
NEVER PERMIT THE GOV. TO "FORGET IT FOR US."


AND ALL OF these considerations exist WITHOUT:
Dr. Peck
Innogear
Lawyers, Judges, Courts

TRUTH vs. LIES and REALITY vs. ANTI-REALITY are BEDROCK CONCEPTS that determine whether or not any of us can or will live at all.
(Just ask the 1st Caveman who jumped off a cliff, "thinking he could fly" -- or maybe you want to "try out" this "anti-reality lie" on a niece or nephew, who still has the Caveman's intellect level, and see if they'll "believe"

A key misunderstanding people seem to have about the truth vs. lies is what a "belief" is.
Note how difficult that is to determine. And how is that diff. from "thinking" something. (Is it?) Or "hoping" something. (Is it?) Or "hearing" something.
It's murky turf, right now, even in 2000.
But I'm working to make it less so.

As always, you're all invited to "beat me to press," and I won't cry plagiarism, proprietarieness, intell. prop., etc.

As Dr. Peck notes time & again in the dozen or so books he's written, the only way we can be sure we've truly tested the truth of our ideas is to expose them to the ideas and possible criticism of others of good intellect.

==============
I've taken a lot of shortcuts tonight guys, forgive me. I'm doing the best I can, the fastest I can (always something to be wary of -- speed, in all respects), though I'm tired, have to wake up for a double-shift of work Sunday (believe it or not), etc.
Please do whatever homework you can, in whatever timeframe you can afford into your lives.
I doubt any of you will ever say it wasn't worth the effort.
--------------
P.S: I don't mean to come off as "king of the world," though I know that w/someone very certain of what they know (in the areas I've specialized in), it can seem this way. Trust me, I'm not looking for this.
I lay out the bedrock principles with which I'm familar SPECIFICALLY SO YOU CAN SHOOT THEM DOWN IF YOU HAVE BETTER REFERENCES, which I am eager to hear about and research for myself.
I realize I may be ahead "in this material" simply because of the "time served" I've put in thus far. I know full well that many of you are light years ahead of me in other realms.
Again, I'm happy to hear your feedback, happy to have this forum, happy 2,777 page-views of interest have shown themselves...
...and would love to hear of your "#1 books of all time" -- the NY Times be damned!

Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 103

WTH

Maybe I'm off base, or horroribily confused about the purpose of this thread. And I mean no offense when I say WHAT IN THE NINE HELLS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT !! and how does it DIRECTLY relate with anything what so ever-to do with the handspring visor, the springboard slot in the visor, or the springboards that go in those slots. I reread your post four times and I still cannot understand what any of what you are saying has to do with anything to do with anything running palmOS!!!! However again I am reading this at a late hour so I may just not get the joke. But on the off chance that I was not sliped a halucenegenic chemical inbetween reading posts I would strongly recomend that if there is a moderator for these postings that he wipe this thread out completely. I blew 4 minutes trying to figure out what the heck any of this has to do with the purpose of the thread. Normally I can read through an entire page of posting in half a minute.

Registered: Jun 2000
Location:
Posts: 594

It has to do w/Innogear's incessant lies, deception, and even promulgating a fraudulent image of a prototype of the SixPack on their Web site.

And why it matters.

It's all pretty clear, if you follow this thread from the beginning. As noted earlier on, I realize it's a superhuman strain to have to scroll past a large post you don't want to read, so let me apologize again for that.

Forgive me, also, for evidencing any level of depth that one can unlikely fathom in a quick perusal of the page.

Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 103

Depth or Relevence ?

Depth at this point is not an issue. My confusion stems from a lack of relevence. Innogear has problems delivering products yes? Is innogear under any contractual requirement to deliver anything to anyone that has not purchased something? No. Has innogear admited that they have problems delivering products? Yep. Have they taken my money without delivering something to me. No. Does this sort of thing happen everyday in REAL LIFE? yes. Is is against the law in any country? No. Has a crime been commited? No. Do I personally feel let down? Sure.

These are all things that I feel contribute to the thread in a positive manner.

Do I think that there should be laws against letting people down? .... No. If there were then a number of girls that I have dated probably would have taken me to court. And I probably could have taken twice as many to court myself. As well as potential employers and banks and any number of other people,places,organizations. Why are laws against letting people down are an immensely stupid idea? The visor, or pocketpc, or palm 3,5,7,3x,5x,7x,3c,whatever allow people to enjoy the benifit of computational power/games/organization/programing/whatever in REAL LIFE. Not in a computer room or at a desk or lugging around my laptop or trying to access a public terminal. If we has seriously bogus laws like that everyone everwhere would spend all of their time in a courtroom somewhere and none of their time enjoying REAL LIFE. Hence no market for handheld devices. Hence no devices or lack of future devices to ***** about.

Now look what you have done. You've got me on a rant. Now I have to have myself sacked.

Registered: Jun 2000
Location:
Posts: 594

The fundamental abstraction that underlies your argument is one that governs all life:
ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES.
Like Mr. Kessler before you, you are correct as far as current law goes...
...but if you spend a few serious moments reading P.O.T.L. (I'd estimate around the pp.75-100 area), you'll see Peck (his dad was a NYS Judge, by the way) notes that a principal problem w/the "evil" (let's pretend this needs to be in quotes) words & deeds he describes is:
THEY'RE NOT CURRENTLY IDENTIFIED AS CRIMES.

I'm not saying to "George Bush" people on Death Row for "letting down" young ladies ... or the converse.
But when there is NOTHING, the behavior is essentially REWARDED.

I could kick myself for not remembering the author of this famous quote (perhaps Voltaire), but it goes:
"THE ONLY NECESSARY THING FOR EVIL TO FLOURISH IN THE WORLD IS FOR GOOD MEN TO DO NOTHING."

If there is a PENALTY (and a progressive SYSTEM of FURTHER penalties for REPEAT offenders), at least even subconsciously, the offender can no longer PRETEND "everyone thought it was OKAY."

This is why computers need to be involved in calculating the billions / trillions / quadrillions of permutations, and meting out EQUAL justice to EVERYONE in essentially similar circumstances.

Callously push someone out of the way on the street: $25 fine (videotaped, to ensure fairness).
Thoughtlessly / unjustly scold an innocent child: $125 ... or perhaps $1,200. This is why computers must be involved. (Most crucially, of course, is to ensure no "bias" on the part of the "judge.")

Persistently "string along" / "deceive" / "bait-and-switch" consumers ... pay a fine.
If it gets persistently worse, perhaps jail time.

It's not even much of a novel concept, as you may have heard of the old Debtor's Prison.

Once more, I have to think of quick, snappy answers that unlikely do the real depth of these issues any justice -- which is why I urge the reading of P.O.T.L. It's much harder to read that book, and think these considerations are lightweight.

Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 103

Well I dunno what your deal is exactly but unfortunately I am well read enough to know what you are talking about.


"The fundamental abstraction that underlies your argument is one that governs all life:
ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES. "

Any layman of any education can acertain the meaning of that. But I feel that perhaps there might be something that you fail to consider.

You seem to be a rather well read person. And so perhaps you remember who it was who first truely defined all negative events that occure in REAL LIFE when he said "**** Happens." Despite being a strangly concise elaboration upon events as they transpire in REAL LIFE it also carries an underlying devaluation of events that do not contain a DIRECT threat to ones person, property or loved ones. For example an event such as an electronics manufacturer not releasing a product. Such an event is unfortunate however since it has done nothing more that inflict an inconvience to you the punishment equal to that offence would be little more than the punnishment for cutting in line in the supermarket. Until the justice system local to you works out a proper system to dispence justice to those who cut in line it may be difficult to exact justice for such offences. ie **** Happens.

"deceive" / "bait-and-switch" consumers ... pay a fine.
If it gets persistently worse, perhaps jail time"

For someone to perform a bait-and-switch they have to be selling something. And unfortunatly I have to let you down with the info that there are laws and fines against bait-and-switch already inplace in at least 40 of 50 states but the deal breaker in this case is that something has to be sold in order for those laws to apply ie: not selling a product is not illegal because no one is harmed. Sorry.

I do have to appologise for the use of the word "****" as it may offend some.

By the way some people disagree with you more strongly than I do. Perhaps you have examined the New Hampshire Quarter;
It Rather plainly states: Live Free Or Die. That whole absolute overseerer thing you seem to like so much would really have to operate exclusive of anything resembling freedom. I dunno how that would go over in a state with that motto.

Just a thought
Bane



[Edited by Bane on 12-11-2000 at 05:32 AM]

Registered: Jun 2000
Location:
Posts: 594

"Well I dunno what your deal is exactly but unfortunately I am well read enough to know what you are talking about."

I'm sorry, but it's clear you aren't, and don't.
Please do the homework.

Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 604

Hasn't this discussion wandered rather far afield from its original topic - Innogear's incessant delays in delivering the SixPak? Perhaps this thread should be put out of its misery.

Having made that point, let me respond very briefly to bkbk's posts - to the extent I've been able to force myself to read them.

Anyone who thinks the legal system produces accountability is sadly deluded. I say that as a lawyer.

Innogear has, and will continue to pay a price for their inability to live up to their very public commitments. I for one will likely never purchase a product from them, partly because they lack credibility, partly because due to the delays they really aren't making anything that someone else isn't also making. Why buy the InnoPak 2V when you can buy the Memory Access? Why buy the MiniJam when you can buy the SoundsGood module, which sounds superior anyway? By the time they deliver the SixPak (if ever), Thincom will have a modem/flash memory combo.

The market punishes bad companies. Leave the court system to punish other wrongdoers - murderers, rapists, those who take advantage of others.

Registered: Jun 2000
Location:
Posts: 594

quote:

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Originally posted by VTL
[1] Hasn't this discussion wandered rather far afield from its original topic...

[2] ...to the extent I've been able to force myself to read them.

[3] Anyone who thinks the legal system produces accountability is sadly deluded. I say that as a lawyer.

[4] The market punishes bad companies. Leave the court system to punish other wrongdoers - murderers, rapists, those who take advantage of others.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 308

Re: Overwhelmed, incompetent etc

quote:

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Originally posted by CaptainVisor
I personnally would sell my Visor and switch to an IPAQ before buying another Innogear product...ever.

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__________________
Sam Kleinman

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"Everybody don't like something and we all don't like you." -- Richard Thompson, Hard Luck Stories

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 308

quote:

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Originally posted by echinye
Heh.. this thread is funny. When everyone was waiting for Minijam to come out, the SoundsGood MP3 player came out unexpectedly. Now that SixPak WILL BE available in 2001, maybe we'll see an EIGHTPak from some company we've never heard off.

Go VaporGear!

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__________________
Sam Kleinman

PocketPCThoughts.com
CollectiveArts
Free-ePress
Musings of a Teal Artist
CollectiveArts TechMusings

"Everybody don't like something and we all don't like you." -- Richard Thompson, Hard Luck Stories