Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Plant City, FL
Posts: 385

quote:

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Originally posted by PiDeveloper


VFS is only a new File system standard programmer's interface released by Palm in Dec 2000. Even you have VFS support, most existing applications are still unable to directly access data on the card.

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<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Plant City, FL
Posts: 385

quote:

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Originally posted by bob151
Sooo.... Do the memplug things and standard flash operate the same? IE. I can store apps on the addon flash, and run them from there, or are they always copied into regular memory before execution?

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<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>

Registered: Jun 2001
Location:
Posts: 16

quote:

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Originally posted by dkessler


With all removable storage Springboard modules except the 8MB and 16MB Flash modules, data has to be copied to RAM befor the Visor can see it. This is also true of the SD cards onthe m50X and the MemoryStick on the Clie. OS extensions like VFS and PiDirect can make the process transparent and reduce the amount of data that has to be copied to RAM to individual records instead of an entire database, but the copy to RAM is still happening.

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Registered: Mar 2001
Location:
Posts: 159

quote:

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Originally posted by dkessler




Actually, VFS support is currently available in apps such as Handheldmed's Reader software and TealMovie just to name a few, and VFS in many more apps is just around the corner.
Three of the four major brands of PalmOS based handhelds currently support VFS (and it's coming to the Visor soon), so it's a pretty safe bet it will see widespread support.



Yes, but in reality PiDirect and AutoCF end up doing essentially the same thing. Yes, they only copy the database resources to RAM as they are "opened", but in the case of most applications, 90+% of the application's resources are "opened" as soon as the application starts executing. And in terms of speed, copying the whole app in one shot is faster than doing it piecemeal.

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Penn State
Posts: 116

quote:

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Originally posted by PiDeveloper

PIT is also working on VFS support for Palm application developers. And I believed that when VFS is widely adopted by most developers, VFS support for Memplug Family Product will already available.

- PiDeveloper

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The ONLY thing I am worrying about is whether your software will support VDX or not. If it won't, it's another discrimination against us these VDX users.
I am already discriminated by your PiDirect software.

Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Posts: 1571

quote:

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Originally posted by bob151


I'll explain why I am still not sure whats going on here. Before I saw your reply, I called Handspring and asked them about their flash springboards. They said that programs don't run from them, but have to be copied to main memory and then run. Meanwhile, others say they "run from flash".

Thanks

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Plant City, FL
Posts: 385

quote:

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Originally posted by bob151

I'll explain why I am still not sure whats going on here. Before I saw your reply, I called Handspring and asked them about their flash springboards. They said that programs don't run from them, but have to be copied to main memory and then run. Meanwhile, others say they "run from flash".

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I looks like you managed to get a confused support person Perhaps they were confused by the fact that you have to use Handspring's file mover application to move databases to the Flash module.

I won't dive into the technical details, but I can assure you that the Flash on a Handspring 8MB Flash Module looks just like ROM to the Visor. I know because I designed the Flash on Innopocket's FlashPlus module (that holds FAFileMover and the drivers) to work exactly like the Flash on the HS module. It takes a special kind of Flash chip to do this, which explains why the Flash modules are so much more expensive per MB than CF or SmartMedia cards.

The bottom line is that anything you have in a HS Flash Module will be accessed directly and not copied to RAM first.

__________________
<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Plant City, FL
Posts: 385

quote:

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Originally posted by PiDeveloper

PiDirect and AutoCF doing similar things, but we *NEVER* copying 90+% of the application's resources when application start.

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__________________
<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>

Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Posts: 1571

quote:

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Originally posted by bob151


I'll explain why I am still not sure whats going on here. Before I saw your reply, I called Handspring and asked them about their flash springboards. They said that programs don't run from them, but have to be copied to main memory and then run. Meanwhile, others say they "run from flash".

Thanks

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Registered: Jun 2001
Location:
Posts: 16

quote:

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Originally posted by dkessler


I disagree. For most PalmOS applications, the code1 and data0 resources make up 90% or more of the application's size. Those are opened and locked by the OS when the application is launched (along with any resources used by the application's main form) so PiDirect must to copy all of that data to RAM.

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Penn State
Posts: 116

quote:

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Originally posted by eeist


so.... how do you explain that PiDirect can access 24Mb movie or 12Mb document? Is it copy 90%+ on the RAM?!?! My visor has only 8Mb....

At least, FlashPlus/InnoPocket can't do it yet.
You disagree but it is a truth that PiDirect can access the data piece by piece on card but not "must to copy all of that data to RAM"...

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Plant City, FL
Posts: 385

quote:

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Originally posted by eeist


so.... how do you explain that PiDirect can access 24Mb movie or 12Mb document? Is it copy 90%+ on the RAM?!?! My viosr has only 8Mb....

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You missed the part where I said:

quote:

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Record databases are a different story. For those, virtual memory systems like PiDirect or AutoCF can be very efficient since most applications only open a few of those records at a time. But accessing those records via VFS is just as efficient.

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Movies and documents are typically record databases. Yes, in a few cases they are stored as .PRC files but they are still seperate from the actual application's .PRC file. My comments about copying 90% of application resorces to RAM apply only to the "application" itself. And when I say "resources" I am using that as a technical term meaning each PalmOS resource (code segment, data segment, form element, etc.) in the application's .PRC file, I'm not talking about resources in the general sense of the word. I'm sorry if that caused any confusion. I sometimes forget that technical terms that have very specific meanings to me often mean something completely different in the real world

__________________
<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Derry NH USA Earth
Posts: 154

quote:

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Originally posted by dkessler

I sometimes forget that technical terms that have very specific meanings to me often mean something completely different in the real world

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I understood every word you said and thanks for clarifying all that mess.

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Registered: Jun 2001
Location:
Posts: 16

quote:

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Originally posted by yardie


Some if not most programs can run directly from the Flash module. The agent you spoke to does not know what he or she is talking about.

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Penn State
Posts: 116

quote:

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Originally posted by bob151


Thanks yardie,

Since hearing that from the rep, I started reconsidering the Memplug CF. Can you comment on if some applications run from flash there?

If a Memplug can run (most) applications from flash on a 3.1 PalmOS like the Springboard (fixed-configuration) Flash Module, then I would prefer the flexibility of the Memplug.

TIA

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If you have a 3.1 device like Visor Deluxe, you have no choice but the Handspring flash module(or other brands but basically the same thing). PiDirect cannot be run on a Visor Deluxe.
You may want to wait until Kopsis has their solution out for Visor Deluxe. It's in beta stage now. If you cannot wait, you will have no choice but the Handspring flash module.

Last edited by hxh167 on 06-28-2001 at 03:55 AM

Registered: Mar 2001
Location:
Posts: 159

quote:

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Originally posted by dkessler


I disagree. For most PalmOS applications, the code1 and data0 resources make up 90% or more of the application's size. Those are opened and locked by the OS when the application is launched (along with any resources used by the application's main form) so PiDirect must to copy all of that data to RAM. And it has to do it in two or more operations which means more overhead than a single copy of the entire database. Only in the case of large applications with multiple code resources, can direct access solutions reduce the applications RAM footprint, and even then most applicaitons end up loading and locking all of their code resources very early on, so there is really very little savings.

Record databases are a different story. For those, virtual memory systems like PiDirect or AutoCF can be very efficient since most applications only open a few of those records at a time. But accessing those records via VFS is just as efficient.

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You maybe correct, if you mean small size application (~ 10k-30k)

But for those applications with application's size larger than serveral hundreds kilobytes, eg. action games with a great deal of graphical data, PiDirect still do a great saving, as it won't copy the whole application to your visor's internal memory when application start.

For record databases, VFS can do as efficient as PiDirect PROVIDED THAT that those applications are VFS awared.

But the number of VFS awared applications is still insignificant when compare to all Palm application existing available.

I do agree that VFS support will become more and more popular in the coming years, and PIT will also have our VFS support for MemPlug products soon.

With PiDirect and PIT's VFS support, MemPlug users can take advantage of both existing and VFS awared Palm applications.

- PiDeveloper

Registered: Mar 2001
Location:
Posts: 159

quote:

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Originally posted by bob151


Thanks yardie,

Since hearing that from the rep, I started reconsidering the Memplug CF. Can you comment on if some applications run from flash there?

If a Memplug can run (most) applications from flash on a 3.1 PalmOS like the Springboard (fixed-configuration) Flash Module, then I would prefer the flexibility of the Memplug.

TIA

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Penn State
Posts: 116

quote:

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Originally posted by PiDeveloper


Launcher III with MemPlug support is already in its beta,
It take a similar approach as Palm m500 devices, it will automatically copy the whole application from external memory and deleted it after used.

From the feedback of beta testers, it can work well on PalmOS 3.1 device.

- PiDeveloper

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Why all you guys don't read the question more carefully? Bob was asking if Memplug CF can act the same like the Handspring flash module for 3.1 machine like VDX. The answer is "NO". Launcher III is NOT PiDirect. They are different animals. You need a lot of memory if you want to run a large database like dictionary because the Launcher will copy the whole database to RAM. If you want to save RAM, you have to use PiDirect with a 3.5 machine like Platinum, Prism, or Edge. Please don't give answers that will confuse these newbies.

Registered: Jun 2001
Location:
Posts: 16

quote:

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Originally posted by hxh167

Why all you guys don't read the question more carefully? Bob was asking if Memplug CF can act the same like the Handspring flash module for 3.1 machine like VDX. The answer is "NO". Launcher III is NOT PiDirect. They are different animals. You need a lot of memory if you want to run a large database like dictionary because the Launcher will copy the whole database to RAM. If you want to save RAM, you have to use PiDirect with a 3.5 machine like Platinum, Prism, or Edge. Please don't give answers that will confuse these newbies.

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Penn State
Posts: 116

quote:

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Originally posted by bob151


Thanks, for reading the question. It seems to me that it isn't worth getting flash (or smartmedia) memory for a Visor that has only 2MB of RAM. I'm almost tempted to do the 2MB to 8MB Void-your-warranty upgrade on the Visor and forget about all the other options that seem to have some type of issue or another.

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Here is the site if you want:
http://www.palmpilotupgrade.com/about.html
The price is $89 plus the shipping charge to send your palm to them. They will send your Visor back insured free with a 90 days warranty. If anybody knows a cheaper place, please post.

The other way is to sell your Visor at Ebay for around $100 and spend $200 for a Visor Deluxe. This way, you will only spend $100 and get a totally new Visor with full warranty. I will think this as a better way to go.

Besides, if you buy a Visor Deluxe from Staples.com with a $30 coupon code. You will only pay $170 plus tax. The shipping is free. You can get some coupon codes here(check the right side column):
http://techbargains.com/

This way, your final cost will be less than upgrading your Visor from 2mb to 8mb.

If you live in other countries in the world like Hong Kong or Taiwan, the former way will be cheaper. I know people in Taiwan only needs to spend $45 for upgrading their Visor from 2mb to 8mb and it will carry one full year warranty from the company modifies the machine. On the other hand, Visor Deluxe is a little bit more expensive than here. So the choice is obvious for them.