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Me:
I took it that what he meant was that you believed he was the Son of God, meaning that his resurrection is part and parcel of that.

D-R:
But that isn't stated in the verse.

In John 13-17 (the last supper) Jesus addresses the disciples and says in 15:26-27,
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning."

and skipping up to 16:7,
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

and still further on in 16:16,
"a little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father."

What this means is that the resurrection is one of the 'proofs' that he is God's Only Son. The commandments give us guidelines, but you can get to heaven if you have commited a sin. The 'escape hatch' is Jesus and belief in him. Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3:16,
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
You have to truly repent your sins (Go and sin no more!) and ask for forgiveness from the Lord God, in Jesus' name. If you can't believe in the resurrection, which is the reason he came here, how can you truly believe in Christ at all?

"The only time Jesus used the word commandments in reference to anything other than the 10 was in reference to the two He laid out. If people followed the rest of His teaching, they were "blessed."

In Matthew 5:3-6:27 Jesus addresses 'the multitudes' and issues his beatitudes and in 5:19 says(KJV),
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments
, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
(my highlighting of the word 'commandment, their italiacizing of 'them'.)
This in reference to the old laws, the 'Ten Commandments' (we're in agreement here.)

Then in addressing the Pharisee lawyer (trying to tempt him) in Matthew 22:37-40, he says,
"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

I'm assuming that you mean these two commandments.

This pastor was referring to the various beatitudes (explicitly put out in Matthew). Jesus never called any of them commandments, to me they read more as finer points of law. He also never claimed that they were 'his' commandments, they still came from God.

"There could hardly be considered a "straight forward" approach to interpreting the gospels. In fact, if one were interpreting the gospels literally, there is little doubt that a belief in the risen Christ is not necessary."

Ahh, therein lies the rub. How can one believe in his authority, and his message without believing in the miracles? He was born from a virgin, died on the cross and was resurrected, and then received up into heaven (right in front of them!) to sit at the right hand of God.

"That may be, but when does that realization have to come? Doubting Thomas received proof."

Yep, he did. What a lucky guy he was. All we get is our own faith. I acn only speak from what the New Testament stands for, that is a belief in Jesus of Nazerath as the Son of God. A person could do a lot worse than use his example as a code of life, treating him as a wise teacher, or philospher. That won't get you into heaven though, if you profess to be Christian. I don't think there is a possible way to 'prove' he was the Son of God. That all has to come from faith. I really don't know if there is another way to get to heaven, like I said before, I just know the way Jesus describes. That comes from belief in him chiefly. The 'covering of bases' you mentioned is people following the letter of the law, not the spirit.

I know there is a God. He's proven it to me personally in many ways. I choose to believe in his Son (because it makes sense to me). I think it's great that you are exploring this, and I know it's really expecting too much to hope that everyone will see eye-to-eye on this issue. We free-willed humanoids are much too persnickity for that!

Later,
Michael

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Originally posted by dick-richardson
I don't remember, but I don't think infinity is either positive or negative at any rate, so the argument may be moot from the get-go.
Infinity is both positive and negative at the same time, as well as neither. When you travel towards infinity you are also travelling away from infinity, as it stretches infinitely in any direction away from your location in the infinite space-time continuum. Assuming that space and time can be infinite, because they can also be defined as being finite, and when something is finite and infinite at the same time - time being relative - there's really not much for it but to give up, go home and have a nice sandwich and cold beverage, maybe read a good book and wait for infinite space and time to catch up with your existance and snuff it out.
(how's that for circular logic?)

Originally posted by BobbyMike
for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."
My mom always brought me the Comforter when I was sick. I have one of my own now. It's in the chest in the bedroom. The chest is cold, so I give it some medicine, but nothing changes, but I'm sure it feels a little better since it has the Comforter.

and still further on in 16:16,
"a little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father."
ah. Jesus went to visit his Dad in Jerusalem, then he came back after a bit.

man, I'm gonna get slapped down as a heretic for this stuff.

What this means is that the resurrection is one of the 'proofs' that he is God's Only Son. The commandments give us guidelines, but you can get to heaven if you have commited a sin. The 'escape hatch' is Jesus and belief in him.

No sir, I don't like that. It's like saying you can be evil but you'll still go to a good place if you believe in Jesus. I mean, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" yet Holy War one after another.
Non-Christian Soldier (NCS) and Christian Soldier (CS): ack, I've died. you killed me!
St. Peter: ah, welcome to heaven, soldiers.
You there. You're Christian, aren't you?
CS: Yes.
St. Peter: and you killed this Non-Christian?
CS: Yes.
St. Peter: Do you believe in Jesus?
CS: Yes.
St. Peter: oh, well, come on in then. {opens gate for CS to pass thru} And you there. You're not Christian, correct? And you killed that Christian Soldier?
NCS: Yes, that's right.
St. Peter: ah. Do you believe in Jesus?
NCS: well, no, actually, I --
St. Peter: TO HELL WITH YOU! {banishes NCS}

Okay, melodramatic and super-simplified, but that's the idea I got off your statement. I mean, c'mon. If you do bad things, you have to live with that, you can't just wander along believing in a possible Son of God and that makes it right.
Don't take it as a flame, I just have a differing point of view. (I'm also probably up too dam - er, darn, darn late.) (Yes, I did read the rest of the post; yes I do see where you say that just belief is not enough; it still sounds like a cheat.)

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I'll get to your response tomorrow, Michael, but I'll clarify where I'm coming from right off the bat.

I am not saying that Jesus didn't die for our sins. I'm not saying that He didn't rise from the dead. I am merely saying that a belief in His resurrection is not stated to be a prerequisite to attain heaven anywhere in the gospels. I am also pointing out that Jesus said those who believed w/o proof were "blessed." He did not say that unbelievers in His resurrection were damned. A time-frame is also curiously missing (odd, when you consider that Jesus was painfully aware of the limitations of time). It is possible that the full implications of Jesus' resurrection won't be apparent until our own death. I.e., we are to follow Jesus' commandments (from which all other spring - as I mentioned previously) until our death; at which point a decision will have to be made with the understanding that our freed minds will command. This also means that every major religion is leading its followers toward heaven (in theory at least). It also means that a person who professes no religion may yet be on the path to heaven.

This is a whole new can of worms, but even His first commandment seems to allow some leeway. Doing good for the least of our brothers is the same as doing such to Jesus Himself. How far does that go toward loving God? Probably not too far, but it's an interesting question.

One of the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism is in the perceived requirements to follow Jesus. Catholics believe that it takes faith and good deeds. Protestants believe that it takes faith alone. The Bible says it both ways, so don't waste time throwing quotes at me. My question is: can a person choose Jesus and salvation and then murder someone? I didn't think so. If someone chooses salvation, the behavior will follow. I.e., one of the main dogmatic differences between Catholics and Protestants is so much semantic bantering. To put it bluntly, each religion wants to have something that makes them holier.

Reminds me of a joke (I don't remember where I heard it from, so forgive me if it's a repeat). A Jew, a protestant, and a Muslim die and go to heaven. Saint Peter meets them at the gate and lets them in, as they have each lived virtuous lives. During the initial tour of heaven, each of the recently departed immediately notice a large, walled off area. The Jew, overcome with curiousity, asks St. Peter, "What's the wall for?" St. Peter responds, "Oh, that for the Catholics. They like to think they're the only ones up here."

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quote:

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Originally posted by dick-richardson
It is possible that the full implications of Jesus' resurrection won't be apparent until our own death...If someone chooses salvation, the behavior will follow.

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Originally posted by Yorick:
man, I'm gonna get slapped down as a heretic for this stuff.

That's OK. We'll have lots of company in Hell with people like Gandhi, Einstein, Twain, etc.

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This is a response to both Yorick and D-R.
I guess I wasn't making myself clear with my belief. I don't think that it's possible to be a Christian and murder someone, get away with it via your prior relationship with Jesus and go to heaven.
It is possible though, to have commited a murder whilst an unbeliever, find Christ and be saved, and then go to heaven. (The Apostle Paul (formerly Saul) is a good example. You're supposed to resist sin then, because you know that it's wrong. Even Paul had problems resisting sin after he was saved.
This doesn't mean that you can sin, with the expectation of being saved, 'repent', and go on your merry little way. That involves a the sin of presumption towards God, basically trying to twist around the letter of the law. A big no-no. I believe that's what you were referring to Yorick, in that case the 'Christian' soldier had broken a commandment 'Thou shalt not kill'. You can't kill people and be truly acting in Christ's name.

My Church (AOG) believes in acts and faith. For a follower of Christ must not only believe in the Gospel, he must go out and minister to his/her fellow man.

D-R, I believe John 3:16 pretty much sums it all up. The resurrection was already prophesied, and preached before Jesus was born. His role as the Redeemer was to come down from heaven and basically soften the harsh punishments that were being meted for breaking any of the Ten Commandments. This was a time where for example sons could be stoned to death by their communities for talking back to their parents (Jewish law, the same harsh law which allowed Jesus to be crucified). Jesus gave us all a way to repent for our sins, since everyone sins, and still get into heaven. He clearly states that the only way to get to his Father was through him. I think you're parsing when you say that he never states that you need to believe in his resurrection to attain entrance to heaven. Resurrection is the central theme in his short life. Without his sacrifice, and his subsequent return, his life on earth would not have had the required impact he felt he needed.

I have a hard time with large bureaucratic entities controlling the word of God. They have too much of a history of subverting their power over people for their own enrichment and ignoring the will of the Lord when said will is inconvenient for them. When the apostles wrote those crazy letters, they addressed such a rift between the Church. Too many people forgetting the commandments we've been talking about, because they're too busy arguing over minute points. Then they eventually throw away the commandments and start killing each other. Nice way to "love thy neighbor as thyself", eh?

I've always had a hard time with exactly what your discussing, will a person who obeys all the commandments, but doesn't necessarily believe in Christ get into heaven? And if not, is that fair? It's a moot point for me and mine, because we are trying tio follow the will of God and we believe in Christ- so if we have to believe and do, we will be covered as long as we keep it up and not take anything for granted. For us it's not 'covering bases', because we truly believe. I think that you would have a better chance being a non-believer that had never heard of Christ, but followed the commandments, then someone who professed to believe in Christ, but didn't follow those commandments. Jesus' name on your lips alone is no ticket to heaven, he requires your faith to be displayed in action.

Thanks for the continued conversation. I'm learning everytime I sit down and read/respond.

Michael

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Yorick wrote:
"man, I'm gonna get slapped down as a heretic for this stuff. "

I think you're ok. Too many people take themselves way too seriously. And it was funny!

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quote:

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Originally posted by K. Cannon
I know you said don't pester you with quotes, but Ephesians 2:8-9 says
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." That's pretty straight-forward, I think.

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quote:

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Originally posted by K. Cannon
but then again I imagine God is too big to worry about whether I think His procedure has loopholes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dick-richardson
The same could be said of Jonah, Noah, Jesus, Paul, etc. It was their actions that defined their faith.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dick-richardson

I don't think God's Word has loopholes. I think it has intentional omissions. Makes sense, if God created the whole of humanity, that He wants the whole of humanity to have a means of reaching Him. I also have a hard time buying that Jesus, who was notorious for his speaking out against ritual, would so severely limit the means to reach Him to following the rituals of a particular religion.

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quote:

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Originally posted by K. Cannon


Right. But their actions did not cause their salvation. "Faith without works is dead" has always meant to me: faith without works is pointless.

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quote:

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Originally posted by K. Cannon
I have always heard that there is a place (not exactly purgatory? I'm not Catholic so I don't know.) where those who were not exposed to his Word during their lifetimes go...

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Last edited by dick-richardson on 07-19-2001 at 04:23 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by dick-richardson
That's just a semantic that has been overly bantered.

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What, me belabor a point? Beat a dead horse? Harp on the same old thing? Nag something to death?

Yeah, Limbo, that's it...that's for the link.

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"pointless, or ineffective?"

Pointless because it's ineffective?

"I don't think God's Word has loopholes. I think it has intentional omissions. Makes sense, if God created the whole of humanity, that He wants the whole of humanity to have a means of reaching Him. I also have a hard time buying that Jesus, who was notorious for his speaking out against ritual, would so severely limit the means to reach Him to following the rituals of a particular religion."

I think you're correct in noting that. What I believe he was talking about often was ritual for the sake of ritual, without belief. He spoke of the Church, not a church. To him the Church represented all believers, not a particular church. You can go into the letters of the apostles to the different churches and read the warning about such a thing.

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Omnipotence in action:
http://www.ucomics.com/bizarro/view...mp;uc_daction=X

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DANG!

!#$%@#^#@^&&%@$^#!$%@# Windows!

Why on earth is "CRTL-W" the command to close a window?!?! I had a HUGE reply to nearly everything in this thread (especially to Bobbymike's concerns, I even laid out his counterargument for Free Will into a prettly little modus ponens setup!), then I go so start a sentence with a capital "W", but hit "Ctrl w" instead, and it's all gone @Q#$^@$^T$%@#$^
!#$%@#$%
!#$%
!$
&

...

sigh...

Ok, Bobbymike: my definition of free will is as barebones as it gets, something like "A conscious being acts in some way without being controlled about another conscious being." You're definition does, in fact, counter my argument about a possible universe because it seems (as I take it) to present a necessary connection between free will and the existence of evil (a necessary connection being the only thing that can disprove a possible connection, the thing that ticked you off so much). However, I don't think that there's a necessary connection between free will and evil, and I wonder where you're getting it from.

But, you yourself admit that god isn't "wholly beneficient," and continue to cite the plagues that god visited upon the Egyptians. In other words, you agree with my conclusion, "god wills evil." Right?

But that's the whole conundrum of Christianity. God saves, but god also made it necessary to be saved. The Xn says "no, god didn't make it necessary, we did by choosing evil." But who made evil a choice in the first place? And then think about the last place, the rapture/armageddon/final battle/judgement day/yougettheidea. Isn't that when everything is set right? So all the evil in the world turns out to be "for the best." So was it really evil, if it was there to teach us and to make our lives fuller and more exciting? God may will evil, sure, but for an Xn, isn't evil nothing more than good delayed?

That's my problem with Xty. Put aside the culture of meekness, the 700 club, the inquisition, the master/slave::god/creation relationship, and everything else. Xty, in the final analisys, refuses to let us direclty experience and deal with the real pain and joys of existing in the world. Jesus suffered the pain for us, and god's giving us the real joy when we die.

We have to create stories to interact with the world, it's how we create meaning, how we remember stuff. I know a certain fact because I can relate it to another fact, and another, and that to my feeling of a apple in my mouth, and so on. Religion is the same thing, its a story we collectively create so we can make meaning of the hardships and the happiness we're enduring. But what if your story replaces your reality? What then? You're born again.

I can see I'm once again veering off toward lock-down land, if I offend, it is because we've hit upon one of my passions, and passion often overrides common sense and always overrides decorum. I will reiterate that I respect people, many if not most Xn, who live morally, speak intelligently, and accept openly. I do not disrespect people for their beliefs, but am merely stating my own personal disagreement with some commonly held beliefs.

Ctrl-W

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dietrichbohn, do you ever get the sneaking suspicion that you're on a one-way track to hell? I'll pray for your soul.

Anyway, free will as you define it doesn't exist. That requires God leaving all options available to His creation. He didn't. Limitations have been imposed - namely time and space. BobbyMike, though also on a one-way track to hell (he's not Catholic, after all), is using the definition most accepted for the term "free will."

In other words, you're dreadfully wrong. I'll FedEx some ice to you when I get to heaven.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dick-richardson
dietrichbohn, do you ever get the sneaking suspicion that you're on a one-way track to hell? I'll pray for your soul.

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Originally posted by dietrichbohn:
Does Fed Ex take deliveries from heaven? Seems like they might not be let in...

If you slip Charon a C-note, he'll take anything across.