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Toby
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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by broache
[...] he decided his best chance was to go ahead and hit the cow. He did and needless to say it totaled his 1979 Chevy Luv pickup, and the cow. He hit it pretty square and the cow never had a chance.

That's odd. Must've been a small cow (or he was travelling at a substantial speed). A decent-sized cow would've weighed more than the truck. I've actually seen a cow hit by a car that totalled the car and walked away from it.

05-09-2001 04:19 PM

homer
Member

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:
f you really respected the life of all creatures you'd see the stupidity of allowing intelligence to be the sole factor in *your* decision as to whether something should be allowed to continue to exist.

I never said that is how *I* decide the value of an animal's life. That's how *nature* decided it. It is called evolution. Survival of the fitness. May the best man (pigeon) win.

Just because an animal is dumb, doesn't mean I'm going to kill it. But if an animal is dumb, then it may very well kill itself by sitting in the path of danger.

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05-09-2001 04:43 PM

Toby
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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by homer
I never said that is how *I* decide the value of an animal's life. That's how *nature* decided it. It is called evolution. Survival of the fitness. May the best man (pigeon) win.

Just because an animal is dumb, doesn't mean I'm going to kill it. But if an animal is dumb, then it may very well kill itself by sitting in the path of danger.

One also must take into account that the supposedly 'more' intelligent members of the human species reproduce with far less frequency than the 'less' intelligent. Seems like the 'more' intelligent ones are eliminating themselves from the equation (which doesn't really seem too 'smart' to me).

Intelligence is not necessarily a determining factor in evolutionary fitness. If it were, then the collective intelligence of the human species surely should have gone up by now.

05-09-2001 04:50 PM

Toby
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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Didn't notice this originally, but...

quote:
Originally posted by homer
This is called evolution. It was a stupid pigeon. It didn't move when faced with danger. It wasn't deserving enough to pass it's genes on to another generation.

I have all of the respect in the world for the life of all creatures, but sometimes an animal (and this includes humans) is just plain dumb. Sometimes it is best to let them go.

How exactly do you know it was a 'stupid' pigeon? Perhaps it was the most 'intelligent' pigeon ever to live? Perhaps it was deep in thought deriving a cure for cancer and hence distracted? We shall never know, I suppose.

05-09-2001 04:56 PM

homer
Member

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:
One also must take into account that the supposedly 'more' intelligent members of the human species reproduce with far less frequency than the 'less' intelligent. Seems like the 'more' intelligent ones are eliminating themselves from the equation (which doesn't really seem too 'smart' to me).

Humans are odd in that we've basically gone the opposite of evolution. As a society, we tend to try and help those that need help...whether that be physical, emotional, or intellectually.

The problem is that we're letting bad genes get passed on to the next generation. And, though it is a stereotype, it may be true that less inteligent people tend to procreate more, thereby 'dumbing down' the entire gene pool.

Of course, I'm all for helping all walks of life, regardless of their intelligence. I just find it interesting that, as humans, in some ways, we're devolving ourselves.

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05-09-2001 05:49 PM

Toby
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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by homer
[...] I just find it interesting that, as humans, in some ways, we're devolving ourselves.

This (and the stuff I snipped) is only true if you believe that 'intelligence' is the most desirable or most 'fit' trait of humanity. Much as I like the word, there really is no such thing as devolution. To say that there is is pure arrogance thinking that one knows better than natural selection does.

05-09-2001 06:18 PM

mensachicken
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location:
Posts: 443

quote:
Originally posted by homer

I never said that is how *I* decide the value of an animal's life. That's how *nature* decided it. It is called evolution. Survival of the fitness. May the best man (pigeon) win.

your logic is ridiculous. this was not an encounter between an animal and its prey. it was a freaking car. *nature* had nothing to do with it.

i could hit you with a car and easily kill you, regardless of your intelligence.

and like it or not, the person driving the car makes the decisions to slow down, speed up, stop, swerve, etc. it's a conscious choice, not some predetermined action carved in stone by "nature."

i'm always amazed at the leaps of logic people make to excuse their selfish behaviour when it comes to killing animals. evolution; survival of the fittest; the way nature intended; we're at the top of the food chain; etc etc.

in the scenario presented by the original poster, nothing was "decided by nature". the decision was made by the driver. the same goes for any scenario when a human kills something else. nature doesn't decide to put a hamburger in front of you or put a leather belt around your waist. you do.

mc

05-09-2001 08:29 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by mensachicken
[...] *nature* had nothing to do with it.

I wouldn't say that. Humans and their desires (however unusual they may be) _are_ a part of nature.

quote:
i could hit you with a car and easily kill you, regardless of your intelligence.

But not regardless of one's attentiveness (which is independent of intelligence and incidentally the point I was trying to get across).

quote:
and like it or not, the person driving the car makes the decisions to slow down, speed up, stop, swerve, etc. it's a conscious choice, not some predetermined action carved in stone by "nature."

Nor something prohibited by 'nature'.

quote:
i'm always amazed at the leaps of logic people make to excuse their selfish behaviour when it comes to killing animals. evolution; survival of the fittest; the way nature intended; we're at the top of the food chain; etc etc.

There is no 'top of the food chain'. The chain is circular (and more of a 'web' really).

quote:
in the scenario presented by the original poster, nothing was "decided by nature". the decision was made by the driver. the same goes for any scenario when a human kills something else.

nature doesn't decide to put a hamburger in front of you[...]

Nature does not decide to put a dead animal in front of any predator. The predator must seek its prey and kill it. This has nothing to do with the pigeon scenario, of course, but humans are omnivores.

05-09-2001 08:48 PM

foo fighter
Member

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: I'm not sure, but I see lots of lights everywhere.
Posts: 1287

Animals and trucks don't mix

I've had my fair share of "incidents" with fuzzy little creatures of all shapes and sizes. But two stand outs are those that involved ducks.

The first time was when I nailed a ring-necked mallard as he was crossing the highway coming from an adjoining channel. Since there was oncoming traffic, and a body of water on the opposite side of the road, evasive maneuvers were out of the question. So I drove over him directly, so he would pass right down the centerline of my truck, avoiding my tires all together, thereby saving his life. As I passed over him, my plan seemed to be working perfectly, then I heard as small but audible "thud" that emanated from the rear underside, near my exhaust. It must have been his head hitting the axle, because when I looked back in my rear-view mirror, I saw the duck still standing, but slowly falling over to side as if he had been knocked cold. Poor little guy.

My other encounter with water fowl was short and sweet, but still involved my truck. *NOTE* Apparently ducks are magnetized to Ford Rangers. As I was coming out of town, a duck shot out of the bushes, and was attempting to make a take off. Which he managed to do until he made contact with my windshield. There was no damage to my vehicle, other than a large grease splat. I looked in my rear-view mirror, but saw no duck. I had assumed he either survived, or his body had rolled away into the ditch out of site. But when I got back to my apartment, I solved the mystery of the "disappearing duck". You guessed it! The little bastard landed right in the bed of my truck, just as if I put him there myself. Naturally, everyone in my apartment complex was laughing their asses off. No one seemed to feel sorry for the duck, except for me.

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05-09-2001 10:22 PM

homer
Member

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:
the same goes for any scenario when a human kills something else. nature doesn't decide to put a hamburger in front of you or put a leather belt around your waist. you do.

Yes I do.

What was the point?

Oh yea...the pigeon. Toby summed it up well. My point was that the pigeon didn't know enough to get out of the way of a large object coming its way. Therefore, it died.

The zebra that outruns the lion is the one that survives and is the one that passes it's genes onto the next generation. Same with the pigeon.

Does that excuse someone from going out and purposely killing pigeons for fun? Of course not, but that isn't what anyone was talking about.

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We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
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05-09-2001 10:24 PM