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I just lost a whole 8m Springboard


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dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
I have started and deleted replies to this thread several times and find myself feeling compelled to respond (in spite of the fact that I am probably about to get raked over the coals):

I find it amusing that everyone who predicts getting flamed or raked over the coals rarely does. I love the paranoid! You make good points in a rational manner. I'll argue, but I won't rake you over the coals.

quote:
You may think Bill brought his problem on himself.
You may think Bill is an idiot for doing so.
Bill is still a person who lost his entire flash module.
Bill is still a person.

I understand his frustration. I'd be just as pissed if not more so. I've sent visors back to Handspring with bullet holes in them for their malfunctioning. It was my fault they didn't work in the first place. But I paid the $85 quietly and accepted the consequenses of my actions, with both not using it as designed and running over it then shooting it. Bill's original posts didn't bother me. It's his attacking the people who insinuated it might be his own fault that got my goat.

quote:

Does sarcastically throwing it in his face help him?
Does sarcastically throwing it in his face help you?
Does sarcastically throwing it in his face assist any of the readers of this post???

No. I was not interested in helping him, nor was he interested in getting help. But it may help readers of this post if they go away with an understanding that whining is not a good reason to post. If they go away with an understanding that they only way any of the readers of this board know what they mean is by the words they posts, and they take care care that the words they write match the idea as closely as possible the readers will have been assisted. If someone wants to be politically incorrect, fine. I have been plenty of times. But they deal with the consequences, which may include seriously offending someone. Same with whining and snapping at people who's original idea was to help. Do it if you want, but complaining about the consequences as if you didn't know people would be irritated is rather na�ve.

quote:
Because at this point, where postings are being picked apart sentence by sentence, nothing is being accomplished but, perhaps, the honing of peoples' abilities to be sarcastic.
This isn't the first time on this forum (which I usually LOVE) that a post has gotten turned into a cut-down session.

I've always tried to deal with characteristics/attitudes he could do something about, but if I attacked him personally I apologize. When someone comes across to me as being a jerk I usually post a neutral response. Their response tells me if I misunderstood the intention. From the way the thread progressed I think it became rather obvious he just came to *****. Otherwise the tone would've been more along the lines of "This happened to me and it really pissed me off, but there isn't much I can do. Has it happened to anyone else and/or how can we get our voices heard so that the situation gets rectified and/or I just came to let everyone who's unable to check the Buy/Sell/Trade board that I'm selling my Prism."

quote:

P.S. I have previously enjoyed and learned from most of the folks who have posted in this thread, including Toby, Dick Richardson, Pixelator, and others....Furthermore, I LOVE my VDX, so please don't try to send me to Cassiopea-land.

Thanks for the compliment. May I suggest a Cassiopea for your handheld computing needs?

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Last edited by dick-richardson on 02-15-2001 at 05:17 PM

02-15-2001 04:13 PM

Tan Kit Hoong
Member

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 247

From what I can see, everybody on this thread overreacted.

__________________
Tan Kit Hoong,
Star Publications (M) Ltd
<img src="http://thestar.com.my/tech/images/thestar_140x45.gif">

02-15-2001 04:27 PM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

I am going to quote in order to respond to each point made. I don't think it's a negative, I think it gets to the heart of an argument quicker.

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
It seems he either made the mistake of overclocking his unit or trying to copy too much data onto his module. Either one could be considered user error. Machines are dumb by nature and cannot operate outside their parameters. So he made a mistake. He posted about it, stating his opinion that the Handspring team had designed the module (and the way in which it operated)poorly and said he was leaving the wonderful word of Handspring and going back to PPC world. OK.
He has my sympathy because I make mistakes too. I wish him luck and also regret missing out on his Prism (wife's engine blew- money went there instead.)
Reading this post has reminded me at how intolerant we can get towards people who make mistakes and complain about them. A little sympathy wouldn't have hurt.

It's hard to garner sympathy when you're bashing the hell out of people who offer aid.

quote:
I do appreciate all the info that people posted about the technical limits/design of the Visor.
Just remember that what makes this board so cool- the ability to communicate with a great cross section of people all over the world- also removes the face to face contact that normal conversation allows (would we be so pointed to each other if we were sitting across from each other at our lunch breaks?).

Damn right I would be. I'm this pointed whenever someone is being a jerk. Being on VC doesn't give me any loosening of inhibitions. I'm the same on this board that I would be if the Pope came over for supper. I admit I'm rough around the edges, but that's the price one pays for candor. Going through life worrying about stepping on toes is unproductive to say the least. I call the shots as I see 'em.

quote:
What results is the dissection of remarks into "quotes" and the resulting "point scored" system of replying.
Resist quotes, they are an evil designed by debate clubs in High Schools for no better good than to foster argumentative logic.

Argumentative logic is among the hallmarks of humanity. Jesus Christ wasn't afraid of an argument. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Augustine all were great because of the communicative vehicle of argument

quote:

As an exercise I might suggest all parties go back and rewrite their prior posts, excising all personal decriptions, slights and sarcasms, etc. You might be surprised at how much was( or little) was actually said about the hardware/software problems, and how much uncivilty was passed around.
Just my own opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree if you want.

Didn't Jesus call various people hypocrites? That seems to me to be rather "uncivil" of Him. There's a point when civility isn't the most effective way to get the message across. I'm not afraid to ditch civility and possibly step on a few toes when the occasion warrants, be that in person face to face or on a VC discussion board. The second a discussion moderator tells me I've gone too far I will back off and/or edit previous posts. I edit myself to the degree that I can while leaving the message as intact as possible. I don't think that the extent of learning that can be had from this thread ends with the hardware specs of a visor. Something can be garnered about consequences and the responses generated from whining and attacking clarifying/speculating posters as well.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Last edited by dick-richardson on 02-15-2001 at 05:16 PM

02-15-2001 04:51 PM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

Superfluous post -- deleted

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Last edited by dick-richardson on 02-15-2001 at 06:01 PM

02-15-2001 05:17 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Note: I refuse to not quote when quoting makes the communication clearer. Without clarity of meaning or of context, communication is rarely fully realized. Now, on to the message...

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
{...stuff snipped which is not in dispute...}
Reading this post has reminded me at how intolerant we can get towards people who make mistakes and complain about them. A little sympathy wouldn't have hurt.

As stated previously, the tone of the poster garners far more sympathy from me than the situation they find themselves in. If someone burns themselves and cries for help, I'll gladly help them. If some Klan member sets himself on fire lighting a cross, he can burn AFAIC. Not that I'm saying Bill's a Klan member, but hopefully the analogy illustrates my point.

quote:
I do appreciate all the info that people posted about the technical limits/design of the Visor.

There's far much more info in the developer's area at Handspring than I've managed to briefly touch upon. There are PDFs which go into great detail on the tech specs of the Visors, the Springboard slot, etc. It's designed for developers, but any interested end-user would probably get a lot out of it as well.

quote:
{...} (would we be so pointed to each other if we were sitting across from each other at our lunch breaks?).

To be honest, my responses would likely have been no different. If any difference would have existed, it would have probably been to the harsher side of the spectrum.

quote:
What results is the dissection of remarks into "quotes" and the resulting "point scored" system of replying.

Any dissection or points that you or anyone else is seeing is a product of your own interpretations. Again, my purpose is clarity.

quote:
Resist quotes, they are an evil designed by debate clubs in High Schools for no better good than to foster argumentative logic.

Interesting interpretation. However, I learned in Communications 101 long ago that the most effective way to be understood is to ensure that proper context is provided for your responses.

quote:
As an exercise I might suggest all parties go back and rewrite their prior posts, excising all personal decriptions, slights and sarcasms, etc.

Thanks, teach, but I've not the time, and the patronization is bordering on insulting.

quote:
You might be surprised at how much was( or little) was actually said about the hardware/software problems, and how much uncivilty was passed around.

I'm well aware of how much incivility was passed around. Perhaps if people with problems would be more civil when they don't get the answer they want to hear, then such things might not be necessary.

quote:
Just my own opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree if you want.

Well, I obviously disagree with some of it and provided reasons why.

02-15-2001 06:31 PM

BobbyMike
Member

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: "Children are a gift from God, they are a reward"
Posts: 1049

Dick - Jesus never argued with anyone. He was/is the son of God. He told people the way things were and left it at that. You are right he did demonstrate anger at times and he judged people, but again he was/is the son of God and that's his perogative. We are supposed to serve one another (and I don't think he meant for us to carve each other up for Sunday dinner).
Those other guys also didn't do so well amongst their peers if I remember. That style of communication is great for getting your point across (I'm right and this is why, You're wrong and this is why), but it sucks as a way for people to converse. It's not natural to respond sound bite by sound bite. It doesn't leave much room for consensus.

Toby - I'm sorry you thought I was being patronizing. Not my intention. My intent was for everyone involved to take a moment to reflect on what went on and admit, at least to themselves, that name calling is not really necessary. That's it, no insult intended. If I want to insult or patronize someone I do it to their face (actual not virtual). Once again, sorry. By the way, thanks for the line about the dev kit. I have it, but my trying to make sense of it without someone explaining it to me would be kinda like most people trying to make sense of the written instructions for hand blowing a pitcher. It helps to have a person who has hands on experience walk you through it. My dad is a computer hardware/software Mr. Fixit. I am not. I can shoot guns, blow glass, build houses and sell cars. My kid (7), helps me with the PC.

I don't disagree with you or anyone else who thought Bill/Pix went overboard in his complaints about his problems. I just think he was egged on. I don't think we have to civilize people by telling them they are whining or using other perjoratives. That is not the mark of civilized communication. I'm not trying to be above this by saying I haven't resorted to name calling since grade school, that would make me a big fat liar.
Bill/Pix had been around only a few months, but I don't remember him being whiny or a jerk in any of those. He seemed like a normal guy. He didn't register just to complain. He had a history here, and then he posted about his problem. He had another problem admitting he had caused the problem by overclocking. So what? We all make mistakes. We all hate to admit it. We all hate it when people tell us we make mistakes. The heat started early on this one, by the fourth or fifth post, and it got worse. The fire would have died down after his first post if the response to him were all as cool as Brianp, Winchell and Fleabag's were.
By the way- for all concerned (including little ole me) having a sense of humor (the ability to laugh at yourself) is more important to your health then being proved right. (don't bring John Belushi or Chris Farley into this).
Michael Walters
PS I really don't like quotes 'cause I can't figure out to make them work on this board.

02-16-2001 05:46 AM

dsaroff
Member

Registered: Jan 2000
Location:
Posts: 52

Re: Actually

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fat_Man
I think Pix may be right on the crash issue.

The reason that his module crashed was because he exceeded the amount that can be loaded into the module. The same thing happened to me a few days ago. It was pretty frustrating reloading everything back into the module. Luckily I did use back-up buddy and had a my module's data on file. However, although it was frustrating, I would strongly disagree that this was a valid reason to abandon Handspring or the Palm OS. I think the positives of the Visor and the Palm OS far outweighs the negatives and the minor inconveniences.

Hmmm. This is pretty disturbing. If the file mover program is crashing when the module is still within its parameters of functioning (i.e. in your case, it was simply low on memory) than Pix is right. It's not his fault and it's a defective product.

If I pay for an 8MB memory module, I should get one that functions correctly even if mostly full. Now, of course, I think if one tries to write a file larger than the existing space remaining the write should fail, but not wipe the module.

I have been using the memory module for a half year, now, on my Visor Deluxe and only have around 400k free. I have had no problems, though.

Could the issue you mentioned be related to a problem of compatibility between the Prism and the module? How many other people have had this problem?

02-16-2001 02:01 PM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
Dick - Jesus never argued with anyone. He was/is the son of God. He told people the way things were and left it at that. You are right he did demonstrate anger at times and he judged people, but again he was/is the son of God and that's his perogative.

But Jesus was human. He set an example for the rest of humanity to follow. Who are we to determine what was example and what was Godly prerogitive? Thinking things Jesus did as exclusive to Jesus alone is a nice way to avoid responsibility in following Jesus' footsteps.

quote:
We are supposed to serve one another (and I don't think he meant for us to carve each other up for Sunday dinner).

I don't think he meant for us to be afraid to stand up for and speak out against problems we see, either. I admit I'm apt to take it too far. But just as damaging is not taking it far enough.

quote:
Those other guys also didn't do so well amongst their peers if I remember.

What other guys? I'm not following your pronoun.

quote:
That style of communication is great for getting your point across (I'm right and this is why, You're wrong and this is why), but it sucks as a way for people to converse.

I mean more along the lines of "This is how I understand it and why." Take our argument regarding Jesus -- did either of us talk with Him? How do either of us know exactly what His intentions were/are? Almost every argument is speculation. There's no argument that the sky is blue, grass is green, or an oven can be hot. Arguments deal with information that isn't concretely knowable. The "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude is immature. It should be a more or less rational (not necessarily emotionless) discussion.

quote:
It's not natural to respond sound bite by sound bite. It doesn't leave much room for consensus.

I agree, but that's how it has to be on a discussion board. One has to deal with the situation as is. There's no use wishing we could all get together and hash out our differences face to face because it isn't possible.

quote:
Toby - I'm sorry you thought I was being patronizing. Not my intention. My intent was for everyone involved to take a moment to reflect on what went on and admit, at least to themselves, that name calling is not really necessary....

Even though your comment here isn't directed toward me I though I'd point a distinction between calling someone a jerk and telling someone I think they're acting like a jerk. Calling someone a jerk is a character assessment, while saying they're acting like a jerk is a comment on behavior and/or perception(s) given.

quote:
I don't disagree with you or anyone else who thought Bill/Pix went overboard in his complaints about his problems. I just think he was egged on. I don't think we have to civilize people by telling them they are whining or using other perjoratives. That is not the mark of civilized communication. I'm not trying to be above this by saying I haven't resorted to name calling since grade school, that would make me a big fat liar.

I like the irony. Well placed. I don't know as Bill was egged on so much as people posted their irritation with him. I don't think the foresight was there to try and make him respond as childishly as came across. He responded on his own. After Toby mentioned that there was information lacking (the hacks that may or may not have been on the module and may or may not have had a contributing effect to his problem) he didn't clarify that the hacks may not have been on there after all. He immediately went on the defensive and started raving against the possibility that he had anything whatsoever to do with the crash.

quote:
Bill/Pix had been around only a few months, but I don't remember him being whiny or a jerk in any of those.

Actually he had a pretty petty complaint against people who complained about Wal-Mart with mock exasperation.

quote:
He seemed like a normal guy. He didn't register just to complain. He had a history here, and then he posted about his problem. He had another problem admitting he had caused the problem by overclocking. So what? We all make mistakes. We all hate to admit it.

But some of us are able to admit it.

quote:
We all hate it when people tell us we make mistakes. The heat started early on this one, by the fourth or fifth post, and it got worse. The fire would have died down after his first post if the response to him were all as cool as Brianp, Winchell and Fleabag's were.

This thread wasn't the beginning. He had already tried peoples' patience on a different discussion board.

quote:
By the way- for all concerned (including little ole me) having a sense of humor (the ability to laugh at yourself) is more important to your health then being proved right. (don't bring John Belushi or Chris Farley into this).

Would that more people would take this to heart.

quote:
PS I really don't like quotes 'cause I can't figure out to make them work on this board.

Just get used to typing [ /b ] [ /quote], then responding to the point made and [ b ] [ quote ] when you're finished to move on to the next point. It's amazing how quickly communication gets clarified by doing it. Credit goes to Toby.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Last edited by dick-richardson on 02-16-2001 at 09:12 PM

02-16-2001 05:30 PM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
But Jesus was human. He set an example for the rest of humanity to follow. Who are we to determine what was example and what was Godly prerogitive? Thinking things Jesus did as exclusive to Jesus alone is a nice way to avoid responsibility in following Jesus' footsteps.

That came off harsher than intended. I don't mean to imply that you are trying to shirk responsibility for your own moral behavior. Just pointing out that it's a beginning step down a slippery slope.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

02-16-2001 05:37 PM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

Why is the blazes do my posts keep getting duplicated? It's rather irritating. It only seems to happen when I edit a post.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Last edited by dick-richardson on 02-16-2001 at 07:27 PM

02-16-2001 05:38 PM

Fat_Man
Member

Registered: Dec 2000
Location:
Posts: 384

It only happened rarely

The corruption of the module due to overloading only happens on rare occasions. I'm not saying that it happens everytime, there are many occassions that the module gave me a message stating that there were insufficient memory memory in the module for the file I'm trying to move into the module. The compacting program is pretty safe, my module have compacted numerous times without any problems. Therefore, I think this corruption of the module is just one of those things that happens, like you computer locking up.

__________________
Fat's

02-16-2001 05:38 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
Dick - Jesus never argued with anyone.

This wasn't directed to me, but it disagrees with my recollection of that book. Also, on at least one occasion, he skipped the talking and went straight to turning the tables.

quote:
Those other guys also didn't do so well amongst their peers if I remember.

Since when is that relevant? Are we supposed to base our actions or ideals of society upon those that just "go with the flow" and "don't cause any waves"?

quote:
That style of communication is great for getting your point across (I'm right and this is why, You're wrong and this is why), but it sucks as a way for people to converse.

It has nothing to do with who's "right" or "wrong", IMO. It has to do with finding the truth of the matter.

quote:
It's not natural to respond sound bite by sound bite.

Who are you to determine what is or isn't "natural"? Who said there was any single standard?

quote:
It doesn't leave much room for consensus.

Consensus is for things such as deciding on a restaurant. Consenses is not for deciding where/how a mechanical failure happened. Not everything is subjective and subject to a vote.

quote:
I'm sorry you thought I was being patronizing. Not my intention.

Your intention really isn't relevant to the action. Your comments were patronizing.

quote:
My intent was for everyone involved to take a moment to reflect on what went on and admit, at least to themselves, that name calling is not really necessary.

I never called anyone a name. I suggested how someone's actions were making them appear.

quote:
If I want to insult or patronize someone I do it to their face (actual not virtual).

Whether you want to or not is irrelevant. You don't have to want to do it to do it.

quote:
Once again, sorry. By the way, thanks for the line about the dev kit. I have it, but my trying to make sense of it without someone explaining it to me would be kinda like most people trying to make sense of the written instructions for hand blowing a pitcher. It helps to have a person who has hands on experience walk you through it. My dad is a computer hardware/software Mr. Fixit. I am not. I can shoot guns, blow glass, build houses and sell cars. My kid (7), helps me with the PC.

You're welcome, and my condolences.

quote:
I don't think we have to civilize people by telling them they are whining or using other perjoratives.

Quite honestly, it's not my job to civilize people. I'm not their mother.

quote:
That is not the mark of civilized communication.

No, it's not. What you say rarely is.

quote:
Bill/Pix had been around only a few months, but I don't remember him being whiny or a jerk in any of those.

I really don't see the relevance of this either. If someone has never hit me before and suddenly they do, I'm not exactly going to sit there and bleed because it was the first time.

quote:
He seemed like a normal guy. He didn't register just to complain. He had a history here, and then he posted about his problem. He had another problem admitting he had caused the problem by overclocking. So what?

Exactly. So what?

quote:
We all make mistakes. We all hate to admit it. We all hate it when people tell us we make mistakes.

No, we don't all hate to admit it or hear it from other people. I can probably recall at least 10 times I've made mistakes this week. In all but one instance, I've thanked the person who corrected me and/or apologized(the one that I didn't was Peter da Silva on Usenet, and that was because I didn't have time to reply when I read it). My philosophy is that mistakes are learning experiences. Someone who corrects yours is doing you a favor.

quote:
The heat started early on this one, by the fourth or fifth post, and it got worse. The fire would have died down after his first post if the response to him were all as cool as Brianp, Winchell and Fleabag's were.

I guess we can't all be perfect. *shrug*

quote:
By the way- for all concerned (including little ole me) having a sense of humor (the ability to laugh at yourself) is more important to your health then being proved right. (don't bring John Belushi or Chris Farley into this).

I think being proven right is fairly irrelevant. I think finding out the truth is more important.

quote:
PS I really don't like quotes 'cause I can't figure out to make them work on this board.

They're not that difficult. Press the reply w/quote button.

02-17-2001 08:27 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
Just get used to typing [ /b ] [ /quote], then responding to the point made and [ b ] [ quote ] when you're finished to move on to the next point. It's amazing how quickly communication gets clarified by doing it. Credit goes to Toby.

Actually, it's even easier than that. I copy the ending [ /b ] [ /quote ] from the original post, paste it wherever I need it, and delete the leading slashes from the ones where it begins the quote. A simple ctrl-v or a ctrl-v, two mouse clicks and two delete keypresses. Much quicker than typing in the whole tag, IMO.

02-17-2001 08:30 PM

BobbyMike
Member

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: "Children are a gift from God, they are a reward"
Posts: 1049

Dick, the other guys were meant to be Plato, et al. (My readings of their lives made me believe rightly, or wrongly that they were pretty ornery and didn't get along with hardly anyone and were persecuted and not really appreciated much during their own lives)
Toby, I don't feel it's necessary to go with the flow, or do what's easy. I have always hoed my own line (a Southern term meaning to go my own way).
I don't work for a major, or minor corporation. I don't have a mortgage on my home. I homeschool my kids. I am a committed Christian. I'm an art school drop out( most of my friends from that time all became scientists- turbine rotors, robotics, and chemical engineer/chip designers) who went into the USMC (where I chose the Presidential Service unit over crypto school). All three of my boys were born at home. All of those decisions have meant going against the crowd of people around me. all of them were right for me though, so as hard as they were I did them.
Dick, I know we are supposed to follow in the footsteps of Jesus. He quite clearly stated that the night before he was crucified (knowing he was going there for us). I meant that we are not supposed to judge each other, that's for the Lord to do.(At least that's what He said) He had a human form, but unlike we mortals, he was never tempted by sin. The Devil attempted to tempt (that sounds funny) him in the desert, but no go.
Toby, maybe you could find that passage in the Bible where Jesus took the time to argue with someone and tell me where it is. I can't seem to find it. (I think the "turning over of tables" you mention was in reference to the time he overturned the moneychangers tables inside the temple. As I said he was known for being able to demonstrate anger. He didn't argue then though, he just said his piece and moved on.
Toby, Bill/Pix didn't hit you (as far as I know, or do you guys have a history?), he posted something. Your analogy does not make sense. You were never in danger of physical harm. Why the hostile tone?
Toby, as to what's "natural" in conversation- observe people talking. Most people generally don't parse sentences and deconstruct other peoples conversations while speaking to them. Conversation (when people talk) flows in nonlinear fashions, building on what has been said and thought by all parties. It is usually circular in pattern. I did not dictate that. I observed that. Others have too. They have written books on it. Social scientists develop theories about it and teach about it at universities. What we are doing here is not "natural", meaning induced by our natural surroundings. We have gone out of our natural world and into a (brave) new man-made one. Man-made = artificial = not natural.
Toby, your remark about my remark being patronizing is interesting- How do you know what I meant? Because you read something as patronizing doesn't make it written so(a poll on how many who read those remarks and did, or did not take them to be patronizing would be interesting). I read (and wrote) my remarks as earnest and heartfelt, you read them as patronizing. Am I right and you wrong, or are am I wrong and you right? Who decides thr truth of the matter? You, me, independent non-partisan judge, or everybody involved by consensus? I apologized for the way you read it. That, and trying to explain my intent is all I can do. Patronizing someone means that you feel in some way superior to someone and I don't believe I have ever said, or implied that I thought I was better than you, or anyone, at any time on this board.
Were you being patronizing about your "condolences", or was that a joke?
I find it very interesting that you are expressing yourself in this way. Does it bother you for someone to disagree with you? I had a contrary opinion, why deconstruct it and in the name of "truth" insult me?
By the way, you might not believe it, but consensus is actaully pretty integral to civilization. With out consensus we can't choose leaders, agree on a common language, settle on a medium of exchange, or as a people go forward- much less choose a restaurant.
IMHO "The search for a Truth" is usually a solitary task, and better that way- it's less likely you will disagree with anyone. Also when the Truth changes, less people have to learn how to think different.
Michael
Also, I know how to do quotes, I was joking.

Last edited by BobbyMike on 02-18-2001 at 03:12 AM

02-18-2001 01:49 AM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
Dick, the other guys were meant to be Plato, et al. (My readings of their lives made me believe rightly, or wrongly that they were pretty ornery and didn't get along with hardly anyone and were persecuted and not really appreciated much during their own lives)

Whether they were great or not during their own lives has no bearing on their greatness being achieved by argument.

quote:
...Dick, I know we are supposed to follow in the footsteps of Jesus. He quite clearly stated that the night before he was crucified (knowing he was going there for us). I meant that we are not supposed to judge each other, that's for the Lord to do.(At least that's what He said) He had a human form, but unlike we mortals, he was never tempted by sin. The Devil attempted to tempt (that sounds funny) him in the desert, but no go.

I don't know how to respond to this. It's absolutely foreign to me that someone can think that Jesus wasn't tempted. Where the hell is the Glory in not sinning if you don't want to in the first place? If Jesus wasn't tempted then His life has no meaning to me because He simply can't relate to my human condition. Let's imagine that you're God (for the sake of argument) and the infinitely inferior products of your creation are nailing you to a cross and you have to put up with it because of the limitations you put on yourself. You wouldn't be tempted to end it? Dying on the cross wasn't the only way God could redeem our sins. He could have done it with a thought. He's God for Christ's sake! So why do it that way? What's the point of dying on a cross if not to blatantly show how much He loves us? And if it's easy for Him (ie He experiences no temptation) then He obviously doesn't love us enough to suffer for us -- and there is no point to getting nailed on a cross. I don't think sweating blood gives credence to your claims that Jesus wasn't tempted. The fact that God had the power to stop His crucifiction and didn't is the same as if He had nailed Himself to the damn tree. And to think of the molestation done to His message in the name of Religion just irritates me. I was at church this weekend and they were selling blessed candles inside. How is that different than the money changers selling doves for sacrifice inside the temple? How is the arrogance of Catholicism, Lutheranism, or any of the other myriad of religions claiming to hold fast the message of Jesus while killing others any less hypocritical than the Pharisees in Jesus' time? But I'm getting way off topic here. My views on this and other exciting topics to be unveiled when I get my web page up and running. Suffice it to say that if Jesus wasn't tempted then His life was pointless to me (and the rest of humanity) and I would no longer follow Him. His claim of love for me rests on the proof of His suffering.

quote:
Toby, ....

I think I'll sit this last round out. I'm not Toby. I will toss out the thought that the gospels were designed to sell a burgeoning religion and would not necessarily include information contradictory to the message being sold. I will also mention that other accounts of Jesus' life exist and are not included in the Bible (more than likely due to inconsistencies with information being taught by church leaders, inconsistencies with the more or less credible accounts that had been written down, and/or inconsistencies with accepted dogma of the time).

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

02-18-2001 05:37 AM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

How far off topic does a thread have to get before it's moved? Just curious.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

02-18-2001 05:40 AM

BobbyMike
Member

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: "Children are a gift from God, they are a reward"
Posts: 1049

Went off topic on the Christ stuff. Did not mean to say that Jesus was never tempted. I don't feel I'm an expert on what his inner feelings were. The Bible never says much about his inner state, mostly because the books were written by others. They just relate what he said, from their interpretation. They often relate the same incidents differently.
My mention of the fellows you talked about was meant to illustrate that while argument may have it's place, I didn't think it was particularly useful in interpersonal relationships. It's often serves as just another way to drive a wedge between people. Not saying that's right or wrong. Just the way I see it.
I don't think, upon reading your last post trhat we would be horribly apart on this subject and I look forward to seeing what you have to say on your website. I, in my own circular way, was just trying to bring some civilty to the board. I apologize if I came across as high handed. This board is the first board I've ever posted on. Most of my weighty conversations take place face to face, where I can see the person I'm conversing with.
I read this particular post at first because I was curious to see if the Prism (which I want) had issues with the 8mb module (which I currently use w/ my VDX and I find invaluable). Now I know it doesn't.
Perhaps this form (posting) can replace the letter writing of history. I think with informal rules of common civility it can. Unfortunately, we don't get those skills taught to us in school, they're learnt out here in real time.
See you guys later, unless someone has a direct question from me about something I said, I don't plan on posting on this topic again.
Michael Walters

02-18-2001 07:27 PM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
Went off topic on the Christ stuff. Did not mean to say that Jesus was never tempted. I don't feel I'm an expert on what his inner feelings were. The Bible never says much about his inner state, mostly because the books were written by others. They just relate what he said, from their interpretation. They often relate the same incidents differently.

Except the gospel of John, which was written for an entirely different reason than the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark Luke).

quote:
My mention of the fellows you talked about was meant to illustrate that while argument may have it's place, I didn't think it was particularly useful in interpersonal relationships. It's often serves as just another way to drive a wedge between people. Not saying that's right or wrong. Just the way I see it.

I agree arguing is a poor way to develop interpersonal relationships, but I don't think this thread was going to promote any grand interpersonal relationships before the arguing started to begin with.

quote:
I don't think, upon reading your last post trhat we would be horribly apart on this subject and I look forward to seeing what you have to say on your website. I, in my own circular way, was just trying to bring some civilty to the board. I apologize if I came across as high handed. This board is the first board I've ever posted on. Most of my weighty conversations take place face to face, where I can see the person I'm conversing with.

You should keep up with weighty conversations on discussion boards. You do rather well.

quote:
I read this particular post at first because I was curious to see if the Prism (which I want) had issues with the 8mb module (which I currently use w/ my VDX and I find invaluable). Now I know it doesn't.
Perhaps this form (posting) can replace the letter writing of history. I think with informal rules of common civility it can. Unfortunately, we don't get those skills taught to us in school, they're learnt out here in real time.

I agree that civility isn't being taught in school, but then again it doesn't have the same place in society that it once did. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Take relationships, for example. Husbands and wives who couldn't stand to be in the same room together stayed married until they were dead by being civil to each other. I think the positive side the 50% divorce rate (which is flawed because it doesn't take time into consideration, or the number of people married vs. those that are getting divorced -- it merely looks at the # of marriages and the # of divorces per year) is that people are realizing they don't have to stay in relationships that are neither healthy nor productive. The pisser is relationships like that shouldn't advance to marriage to begin with. The pisser with freedom from the constraints of civility is road rage and things along those lines. It's a hell of a call no matter how you slice it.

quote:
See you guys later, unless someone has a direct question from me about something I said, I don't plan on posting on this topic again.

And you and Toby were hitting it off so well. I was interested in seeing how the argument regarding perceptions vs. intentions played out.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Last edited by dick-richardson on 02-19-2001 at 05:34 AM

02-19-2001 05:26 AM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water, I finally get some free time to respond...

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
Dick, the other guys were meant to be Plato, et al. (My readings of their lives made me believe rightly, or wrongly that they were pretty ornery and didn't get along with hardly anyone and were persecuted and not really appreciated much during their own lives)

So why exactly was that a problem? Jesus was also pretty ornery and didn't get along with hardly anyone (relatively speaking) and was persecuted (and prosecuted) and not really appreciated much during his own life.

quote:
Toby, I don't feel it's necessary to go with the flow, or do what's easy. I have always hoed my own line (a Southern term meaning to go my own way).

Why exactly would you think I couldn't figure out what "hoed my own line" meant? Sure, "hoed my own row" or "toed my own line" might have made more sense, but it's not like most of us are idiots here.

quote:
I don't work for a major, or minor corporation. I don't have a mortgage on my home. I homeschool my kids. I am a committed Christian. I'm an art school drop out( most of my friends from that time all became scientists- turbine rotors, robotics, and chemical engineer/chip designers) who went into the USMC (where I chose the Presidential Service unit over crypto school). All three of my boys were born at home. All of those decisions have meant going against the crowd of people around me. all of them were right for me though, so as hard as they were I did them.

Then why exactly do you seek to tell others how they should deal with things?

I'm really not going to deal with the majority of the religious stuff here...

quote:
{...}
Toby, maybe you could find that passage in the Bible where Jesus took the time to argue with someone and tell me where it is. I can't seem to find it.

You could try the book of Mark (somewhere around chapter 11, IIRC). With some reading between the lines, Jesus having a good spirited debate with the representatives of the Sanhedrin sounds exactly like what could have happened (I say could because I'm not one that believes the Bible is a literal and true document as being a proven fact).

quote:
(I think the "turning over of tables" you mention was in reference to the time he overturned the moneychangers tables inside the temple. As I said he was known for being able to demonstrate anger. He didn't argue then though, he just said his piece and moved on.

Except by doing this, it provoked one of the very instances which I'm referring to. Also, WRT "argue", I almost never connote that in the schoolyard "am not" "are too" sense.

quote:
Toby, Bill/Pix didn't hit you (as far as I know, or do you guys have a history?), he posted something. Your analogy does not make sense.

My analogy makes perfect sense. When someone commits an act of violence upon you (you obviously believe that words can be violent, or your statements here would be moot), what does it matter if they've never done it before?

quote:
You were never in danger of physical harm. Why the hostile tone?

If there's no danger, then why should you care what I tell someone else? Why exactly did you feel the need to take anyone to task if you felt that words were harmless? As far as my tone is concerned, we're not talking. You have no frame of reference to tell what tone I'm using. Please don't try to project hostility where it isn't present. Pretend that Commander Data is reading my words (I'd pick another INTP, but I think the humor value of sounding like Commander Data is speaking for me is more fitting).

quote:
Toby, as to what's "natural" in conversation- observe people talking.

I do. I even participate on occasion. Why exactly would you think I've no clue as to how people talk?

quote:
Most people generally don't parse sentences and deconstruct other peoples conversations while speaking to them.

Most people also don't talk for several paragraphs worth of material at a time and expect people to respond in the same diatribe type format. One person says a sentence or two, and the other responds to that and conversation progresses. Actually, if you read my posts conversationally, they'll probably sound much more natural than most of the rant or diatribe posts that people typically post. That might also help to remove the "debate" stigma that you seem to hold and impose upon my words.

quote:
Conversation (when people talk) flows in nonlinear fashions, building on what has been said and thought by all parties.

Yes, it does, but it also (hopefully) weaves and flows into a clear message. It is not a hodgepodge of monologues.

quote:
It is usually circular in pattern. I did not dictate that. I observed that. Others have too. They have written books on it. Social scientists develop theories about it and teach about it at universities.

Yes, and I have read many of those books and taken many of those classes. However, I'm also a thinking human being who can synthesize all of those thoughts into a coherent whole and form my own conclusions.

quote:
What we are doing here is not "natural", meaning induced by our natural surroundings.

It's as natural as any other gathering place. If I go to a PUG meeting, that's just as "unnatural" as coming here.

quote:
We have gone out of our natural world and into a (brave) new man-made one.

I'm sure the first men to build homes and plant crops thought the same thing.

quote:
Man-made = artificial = not natural.

Man-made != artificial != not natural. People are man-made, so that does not de facto mean artificial or not natural. Artificial means a product of skill or "artifice". This skill and artifice may most certainly be natural. AAMOF, one could even argue that it was designed in there by whatever created us. What could be more natural?

quote:
Toby, your remark about my remark being patronizing is interesting-

Oh goodie! Two people in the same thread trying to psychoanalyze me. With all this free counseling, who needs shrinks?

quote:
How do you know what I meant?

Honestly, I've no idea what you meant unless you tell me. I just know what you said.

quote:
Because you read something as patronizing doesn't make it written so

And because you didn't mean for something to be patronizing doesn't mean that it wasn't. By posting what you did, you were taking the position that you understood what was going on better than those involved. Furthermore, you stated that they (we) were wrong (no, you didn't state it directly, but there really isn't much of another conclusion implicated in what you said).

quote:
(a poll on how many who read those remarks and did, or did not take them to be patronizing would be interesting).

It might be interesting, but it really wouldn't be useful.

quote:
I read (and wrote) my remarks as earnest and heartfelt, you read them as patronizing.

Those two concepts are not mutually exclusive. I didn't say that you might not honestly believe that you were justified in saying what you did. To minorly touch upon the religion thing again, many Christians try to convert the "unwashed" in a heartfelt and earnest manner, however, this does not make their remarks any less patronizing to the non-Christians. It's just the "white man's burden" manifesting itself again in a different way.

quote:
Am I right and you wrong, or are am I wrong and you right?

Maybe one...maybe the other...maybe both...maybe neither. I'm couldn't really care less about "right" or "wrong" in this instance. If communication is acheived, that's about the best that can be done at this point.

quote:
Who decides thr truth of the matter? You, me, independent non-partisan judge, or everybody involved by consensus? I apologized for the way you read it. That, and trying to explain my intent is all I can do.

I'm pretty sure that I understood your intent. I didn't think it was malicious. I remember an old saying about the road to Hell, though.

quote:
Patronizing someone means that you feel in some way superior to someone and I don't believe I have ever said, or implied that I thought I was better than you, or anyone, at any time on this board.

If you didn't think that you knew a "better" way to handle things, then why even say anything?

quote:
Were you being patronizing about your "condolences", or was that a joke?

Neither. I can't see how people who don't like to/can't work on their own PCs even bother with the things. I know what I'm doing with the things, and they're extremely frustrating at times, so I can't see how non-PC tech oriented people bother with them.

quote:
I find it very interesting that you are expressing yourself in this way.

I find it interesting that you find it interesting. ;>

quote:
Does it bother you for someone to disagree with you?

Depends on their manner of disagreement, and how well it's backed up.

quote:
I had a contrary opinion, why deconstruct it and in the name of "truth" insult me?

I'm not sure exactly what you're taking as an insult "in the name of 'truth'", but whatever it is, I apologize.

quote:
By the way, you might not believe it, but consensus is actaully pretty integral to civilization.

Yes, and it's also a source of many problems with civilization. Consensus does not make something "right".

quote:
With out consensus we can't choose leaders, agree on a common language, settle on a medium of exchange,

{...}institutionalize racism and prejudice, kill a bunch of people over religious/political/cultural reasons, etc. {...}

quote:
or as a people go forward- much less choose a restaurant.

Again, consensus doesn't mean much, in and of itself.

quote:
IMHO "The search for a Truth" is usually a solitary task, and better that way- it's less likely you will disagree with anyone.

It's also less likely that you'll find the truth that way. The concept of truth (or religion or science for that matter) rests upon the simple concept that there are absolutes outside of the influence of our perceptions. This is why scientists have peer reviews, and religious scholars have debates. It is not so much consensus that they are looking for as much as trying to get as many to test their theories as possible. They are trying to prove them in the more archaic sense of the word (as in "it's the exception that proves the rule").

quote:
Also when the Truth changes, less people have to learn how to think different.

The truth doesn't change. We only find out that what we thought was the truth was wrong or different from our perceptions.

quote:
Also, I know how to do quotes, I was joking.

White man really do speak with forked tongue.

03-27-2001 04:48 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
{...} And you and Toby were hitting it off so well. {...}

Well, I really don't hold any animosity towards Mike over this, so we're not exactly "hitting it off" badly AFAIC.

03-27-2001 05:04 PM

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