Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1883

quote:

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Originally posted by John Nowak

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As my father allways says: If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all....

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Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Elkins Park, Pa
Posts: 577

Here's a clean issue to discuss- in November 2004, I'll be 17, annd some of my friends will be 18. First of all, forget about them. Why shouldn't a seventeen year old not be allowed to vote? Because I can't make the right decision? That's bs. And it's a great way to solve these voter turnout issues, get someone started early, they'll keep doing it. Although I don't go to public school here in Philadelphia, I know there is a major fight with the state trying to privatize the schools. I know the students don't want this. They should have a vote!

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-Bernie

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
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Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Nebraska- the Good life
Posts: 695

quote:

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Originally posted by ernieba1
Why shouldn't a seventeen year old not be allowed to vote? Because I can't make the right decision? That's bs. And it's a great way to solve these voter turnout issues, get someone started early, they'll keep doing it. Although I don't go to public school here in Philadelphia, I know there is a major fight with the state trying to privatize the schools. I know the students don't want this. They should have a vote!

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Do what you can, with what you have, where you are at!

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Redwood City CA
Posts: 472

quote:

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Originally posted by Madkins007

I sorta like Heinlien's idea that only people who have served in the military having a vote (although I would make it any of several forms of national service).

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Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Washburn University in Topeka, KS
Posts: 450

I am 17 and am very glad I was able to vote, even if it was because I will be 18 by November. I feel this is the way it should be, too. A lot of my friends did not vote, though they were old enough, and in some cases, registered, because there were no exciting races going on in the primary, except the mayor of our town, which they did not care about. I voted because it was my right and privelage and my ability to say - I voted for you because of this, or vice-versa.

We even had our local congressman come to our school before the election. Still no turnout. If there was a race for President, or a competitive race for a smaller office, I'm sure they would of voted.

The vast majority of people 17-30 that can vote do not. They simply don't care about the process. This won't change by making the voting age younger. This is terrible, IMHO, because we are the group that will be affected by today's big topics, such as nuclear arms reduction, or Social Security. The elderly that do vote, will not be around to see the long-term results of the actions we make today. We will be. It is up to the young voters to help make sure this country is going to be put on its right track for when we enter the workforce and will be heavily paying taxes, fighting the countries wars, taking social security (which was never intended to last this long), etc. What we need is some way to encourage everyone to vote.

The only reason 18 year olds currently have the right to vote is because that is the age that they were drafted during Vietnam (please let's not start that discussion up...). The draftees correctly felt that they were being disillusioned in the process since they could be drafted to die for their country, but they could not vote for the people that make the decision.

America currently has a average voter turnout hanging around 50% for presidential races. For the local primary in April I voted in, voter turnout state-wide was about 15-20%. France was complaining a few months ago about their record-low turnout of 75%. This is what we first must change.

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Now onto Victory 2004 - FOUR MORE YEARS

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Out of my skull, back in five minutes
Posts: 1435

Originally posted by terrysalmi
The vast majority of people 17-30 that can vote do not. They simply don't care about the process.
There are other reasons people do not vote. Some organizations have made it difficult for people to register or just to vote if they were registered (remember the 20 election and how most black voters in Florida were treated when they went to the polls?).
During his 1987 or 1988 tour Frank Zappa made voter registration a top priority, and made arrangements -- or tried to -- in every municipality they went through to include a registration booth at the venue. In several instances, there was a great deal of resistance to the idea. Probably due to the public perception of Zappa as a freak. (this is of course long before the recent emphasis on voter registration.)

I have voted in every election since I've been able. However, I did not vote in this past November election because I could not get any information about who was running in the elections for my township. There was no TV coverage for the races. The two local papers completely ignored them. My request for a sample voting sheet (a chart showing the names and parties of all persons running for election) from the election board went unanswered. I felt I and my township would be better served if I did not vote, than if I voted randomly.
Between work (2 jobs) and commuting I only had a half-hour in which to go vote, but that isn't really a factor as my polling location is two doors away.


The only reason 18 year olds currently have the right to vote is because that is the age that they were drafted during Vietnam
My mother was directly affected by that. The same year she reached voting age, it was reduced.

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Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Washburn University in Topeka, KS
Posts: 450

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick
[B]Originally posted by terrysalmi
[B]I have voted in every election since I've been able. However, I did not vote in this past November election because I could not get any information about who was running in the elections for my township. There was no TV coverage for the races. The two local papers completely ignored them. My request for a sample voting sheet (a chart showing the names and parties of all persons running for election) from the election board went unanswered. I felt I and my township would be better served if I did not vote, than if I voted randomly.
Between work (2 jobs) and commuting I only had a half-hour in which to go vote, but that isn't really a factor as my polling location is two doors away.

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Friends don't let Friends vote Democrat
Victory 2002 - Republicans Win Control of the Senate
Now onto Victory 2004 - FOUR MORE YEARS

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Elkins Park, Pa
Posts: 577

quote:

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Originally posted by Madkins007
My gut feeling, one shared by many older people, is that a large youth vote would simply hasten this process. Young voters are often the majority, and are (if you will excuse me) pretty easily manipulated. Maturity gives you SOME tools to combat manipulation with (mostly in the form of bad experiences).

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Gee, thanks. Sure there are some- ok, a LOT of minors like that. But there are also some who aren't. Let me also say that the are probably plenty of voters who are the same. Put yourself in a 17 year old's shoes and think about how it feels to be told that you are easily manipulated. Some of us youths read the paper, watch the news, participate in visorcentral discussion boards , and think for ourselves.

quote:

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Another element to think about is where the line gets drawn. If 17 year olds get to vote, what about 16 year olds? If a 17 year old can understand the issues, etc., surely many 16 year olds can as well? And if many 16's can, how about 15's?

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Well, this is solved by making the cutoff age somepoint in the middle of the summer where most schools would cut off the grades. That way, we could say instead of being 18 to vote, you need to be a high school senior. Of course, students get held back or moved up, so strike that and make it "age of the average high school senior". I realize this might not make a big difference in the vote, but it makes us happy .

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-Bernie

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
-Dan Quayle

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Elkins Park, Pa
Posts: 577

Yikes, I'm starting to use the "quote and rebute" method !

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-Bernie

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
-Dan Quayle

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1883

quote:

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Originally posted by ernieba1
Yikes, I'm starting to use the "quote and rebute" method !

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Don't worry, that is an adult thing

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Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1883

quote:

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Originally posted by ernieba1

Gee, thanks. Sure there are some- ok, a LOT of minors like that. But there are also some who aren't. Let me also say that the are probably plenty of voters who are the same. Put yourself in a 17 year old's shoes and think about how it feels to be told that you are easily manipulated. Some of us youths read the paper, watch the news, participate in visorcentral discussion boards , and think for ourselves.

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Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 236

Yeah, look at Miradu, he is 15/16? and he is a contributing writer and reviewer for Visor/Treocentral. Man what I would give to be in his position....mmm Treo 90....and yes I know it's a volunteer job.
Alex.

Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 236

quote:

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Originally posted by terrysalmi


There have been voter registration booths at my high school during lunch, and there *was* information about the races.

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Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Washburn University in Topeka, KS
Posts: 450

In a slight attempt at defense: They did not actively promote different party's at all. That was left up to us. And believe me, Nebraska has its share of liberals, mainly in the form of the kid-molding teachers. I had quite a share of debates with my high school teachers.

Yes, I did follow my family. However, I still form my own opinion. On some individual subjects, I differ from my family. However, the overall viewpoint is the same. Whether this is direct strategy or not, it works. And in the high school I went to, there were quite a bit of liberal students - mainly because they believe everything the teacher says to be true. It could also be because I live in a suburb of Omaha that differs from the rest of the state because of Offutt Air Force Base two miles away (home of the Strategic Command, Air Force Weather Service, and the 55th Wing), and families always coming and going, but you could also argue military families usually also tend to be Republican.

I am active with the Victory 2002 Campaign for our Gubernatorial, Congressional, and Senatorial races coming up in November. There has been no campaigning towards youth as of yet. Anything I have seen has been the county, acting non-partisan.

By the way, don't forget Nebraska has the really screwed up non-partisan Unicameral.

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Friends don't let Friends vote Democrat
Victory 2002 - Republicans Win Control of the Senate
Now onto Victory 2004 - FOUR MORE YEARS

Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 236

Ah yes, the unionist teachers...man o man the debates I've gotten into with my teachers. In Canada though, they're worse, they're downright socialists. Not to mention the fact that our province has had a socialist party (The NDP) in power for the last 8 years (Shudder!!!) and the unions have a hell of a lot of power. Evil Unions. Come to think about it, we do share a lot of view points, I consider myself to be more of a capitalist than a liberal and I love the Canadian Conservative party, the equivalent to the Republicans. I believe that there is nothing wrong with getting rich and, while I believe in helping out the little guys, I don't like being forced to through taxes and social programs. I believe in a fair percentage based tax system and that the rich shouldn't get taxed more than the poor just because they are more successful than the poor. Does that mean there is something WRONG with being rich??? I hate communism with vengance, I believe it is heavily flawed and will NEVER work. I only see it ever working in the future when through technology we are able to finally get rid of supply and demand, the basis of the economy, and therefore money. Until then let the best man win.
That said, I DO think that some of the things Bush and his party have done are a little crooked, but, oust the Bush family and all their corporate friends taking advantage of the unknowing American populous and I think you would have another (albeit foreign) Republican.
Alex.

P.S. Since I started this post by openly question your support, I call a truce?

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Washburn University in Topeka, KS
Posts: 450

quote:

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Originally posted by tantousha
Ah yes, the unionist teachers...man o man the debates I've gotten into with my teachers. In Canada though, they're worse, they're downright socialists. Not to mention the fact that our province has had a socialist party (The NDP) in power for the last 8 years (Shudder!!!) and the unions have a hell of a lot of power. Evil Unions. Come to think about it, we do share a lot of view points, I consider myself to be more of a capitalist than a liberal and I love the Canadian Conservative party, the equivalent to the Republicans. I believe that there is nothing wrong with getting rich and, while I believe in helping out the little guys, I don't like being forced to through taxes and social programs. I believe in a fair percentage based tax system and that the rich shouldn't get taxed more than the poor just because they are more successful than the poor. Does that mean there is something WRONG with being rich??? I hate communism with vengance, I believe it is heavily flawed and will NEVER work. I only see it ever working in the future when through technology we are able to finally get rid of supply and demand, the basis of the economy, and therefore money. Until then let the best man win.
That said, I DO think that some of the things Bush and his party have done are a little crooked, but, oust the Bush family and all their corporate friends taking advantage of the unknowing American populous and I think you would have another (albeit foreign) Republican.
Alex.

P.S. Since I started this post by openly question your support, I call a truce?

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Friends don't let Friends vote Democrat
Victory 2002 - Republicans Win Control of the Senate
Now onto Victory 2004 - FOUR MORE YEARS

Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 236

Yeah, I guess it was the realization that the Republicans are just like Conservatives in British and Canadian politics (or the Tories if you want to be unofficial). And, in hindsight, I am beginning to agree with what Bush is doing. B.C. has had a socialist government for the past 8 years and in the last election we elected the BC liberals (Canadian liberals mean almost Republican but not quite) and we are undergoing a drastic change as the government tramples over the the Union's monopolies. Many people (especially those darn teachers) are outraged, but I say it's about time. I am a proud Union unsupporter! I have watched Unions singlehandedly kill a business owned by a friend of my dads and watch them drive away SO much business under the NDPs power. So Kudos to Bush and keep up the Union trampling! and go Corporate America...the only other last thing I don't really like about America is that large fast-food chains scarring the world. Going to UNESCO heritage sights and seeing a McDonalds there. I do understand it is their business but still..oh well..gotta live with it. I also think Microsoft is NOT a monopoly. I mean look at the whole Netscape vs. IE thing. Netscape claimed the end users were the ones being hurt. No we're not. both IE and Netscape are being distributed for FREE! where is the user being ripped off????
Alex.

P.S. did you know that Unions were actually started by organized crime in the 40s? Figures. It's still organized crime! I mean, if you don't like your working conditions...GET ANOTHER JOB! I've done it, my friends have done it, why don't you!!!! GRRR Now I am feeling feisty!!
The last thing I don't agree with with Bush is his anti-environmentalist stand. I am not a tree-hugger, nor do I like or believe in Greenpeace or anything else, but I do think it needs to be addressed, even in just a minor way.

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Washburn University in Topeka, KS
Posts: 450

Ok - This is odd - you are actually going too far to the right for me! Unions in idea are not bad, but the way they control everything today is. President Bush does not need to trample the unions, as they have done many good things (and many bad, too); but he should keep them in line.

And, your fact about unions being started in the 1940's by organized crime is dead wrong. Unions were started around the turn of the century after such incidents of the triangle shirt fire, where many workers were killed because of the terrible conditions, and they got big during strikes of mining communities around the same time. Unions were already alive and well by the 1940's.

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Friends don't let Friends vote Democrat
Victory 2002 - Republicans Win Control of the Senate
Now onto Victory 2004 - FOUR MORE YEARS

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Out of my skull, back in five minutes
Posts: 1435

Originally posted by terrysalmi
Now you will never agree 100% with anybody except yourself,
even that can be a problem sometimes ...

... though this thread has gotten remarkabely calm the last page or two...
have to do something about that.



bridge? what bridge?

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Registered: Apr 2000
Location: St Petersburg Fla
Posts: 224

Little known science

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick
Originally posted by terrysalmi

... though this thread has gotten remarkabely calm the last page or two...
have to do something about that.

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