Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 200

I just read on the front page:

3Com Slashes Palm VII Price by $100
10/4/99 10:33:26 AM
Competition from Handspring is forcing 3COM to drive down the price of their Palms - before Visor is even shipping.

But handspring does not have a wireless full integrated model. Not for now.

The only competition I can see is Visor VS. IIIx - where Visors OS can not be upgraded and it won't take too long that there will be many application not running on it.

I am 100% sure that the appearance of the Visor will increase Palm's sales too! It's still a win/win situation which is good for everyone and which will bring us users more products to choose. Of course serious user would never consider a Visor - but it's important to have the choice!

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 103

If you don't like the Visor, don't buy one. If you think it's such a joke and 'Serious users wouldn't buy one', then why are you here? Some of us like the Visor / Springboard idea and the price definately doesn't hurt. Stick with your Palm. If the visor doesn't cut it, then give me the old "I told you so". If it does become a contender, you won't hear "I told you so" from me, instead I'll just let you sit and regret as to why you didn't order one. Have a nice day.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 54

HipHop said: "The only competition I can see is Visor VS. IIIx - where Visors OS can not be upgraded and it won't take too long that there will be many application not running on it."

Oh? You really think so? That's funny, because I have an original Pilot 5000 with the Professional upgrade card that's running OS 2.0.5 with a whopping 1MB of memory, and I have yet to find a single Palm program that won't run on it. Right now, I've got AvantGo, a couple games, DateBk3, and some other miscellaneous stuff crammed on to it. It's a tight fit, but it works just fine. No backlight, no IR, no flash RAM, no fancy 8MB warranty-voiding upgrades.

Then HipHop said: "Of course serious user would never consider a Visor - but it's important to have the choice!"

Wha? Define "serious user". I mean, what does any of the Palm III or Palm V series have over the Visor that makes it the choice of the "serious user"? Is it because the Palm V looks really cool? Does that mean the "serious user" chooses form over function? I don't know about you, but this serious user chose a unit that had the capabilities he wanted for the lowest price.

Maybe now that 3Com spun off Palm, we'll see Palm units come down in price. I have a feeling that's a ways in the future though, while Handspring is offering a more capable unit right now at a cheaper price.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Modesto, CA USA
Posts: 599

A serious user would never consider a visor. Well, I wonder how much longer it will take 3COM to beg Dubinsky et al to liscense the springboard technology for Palm? I'd bet that most of the people that have to date ordered the Visor are convertees from Palm devices because 3COM did not listen to the masses about what the masses wanted in the device of choice.
Oh, and how about lowering the price of the PalmVII by $100. I bet that made all of the New Yorkers real happy about that marketing issue.

Look out Palm the serious machine is about to hit the streets.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 200

Interesting topic, eehh?

I don't think too many Palm III owner will switch to Visor. The difference is just too small. The 8Mb you can get from Palm (or 3rd party). Most Visor buyers will be first time buyers and very early Palm owners.

I guess Palm made a killing with its PDAs. I don't think the production cost is tripple digit (I work in assembly). With selling several millions they could give away a few 100,000 and still have profit.

The new Palm IIIx price of $299 is also closer to the Visor then before. It could be lower then $250 if it goes to online retail.

But I think Palm (or 3com) was too complacent in the past and too slow with new products. Windows CE devices have audio and color. The Visor for now will be a mild competion for the Palm. I am pretty sure that Palm will speed up its future developments and come out with new products more frequently.

The Visor hype reminds me a bit on when Windows 95 came out (yes, I am old eneugh to remember). If Handspring would open a shop tomorrow I am sure that there would be an overnight line. To me the Visor looks more like a massmarket product, but anyway, it will lead to a faster development and that's good for all of us.

Agree!?

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Modesto, CA USA
Posts: 599

OK, I'll agree that the competition will make a better product for all...regardless of Palm, Visor, Windows CE and regardless of market appeal.

Hey, Dubinsky and Hawkins, listening? Now go kick some b... in the market place and bring us a color version of the product by Spring 2000.

I believe a lot of Palm User's jumped camp. A million (which is the estimate user base) no, but I'll say this much regarding "older" Palm users....as a beta tester for the Professional 3COM was not interested in the software (either destop or handheld) they could have captured a lot more market share if they would have paid attention to the details. The Visor has a lite version of Datebook3 which if Palm would have packaged it with their units, they would surely have appealed the device to the mass markets. Visor has done a one up by adding color cases that definitely appeal to the masses. Have you watched the debate in this forum regarding color? It adds the individual factor. Does everyone drive a black car like Henry Ford suggested back in the 1900's...no. 3COM didn't see the market potential for color versions until after they knew that Handspring was coming out with them.
Competition ....it's a good thing.

[This message has been edited by RSGMOOSE (edited 10-05-1999).]

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Salem, OR, USA
Posts: 91

HipHop's post is a personal insult, and should be taken as such. All the people here who ordered a Visor are only insignificant 'amateur' users, while a serious professional user like HipHop would never even consider buying a cheap, piece-of-junk Visor. That's the attitude being conveyed here folks. One of contemptuous disdain for all of us on the bleeding edge of cheap, tacky, low end consumer electronics. It seems all HipHop is concerned with is how much more money Palm will make from the introduction of the Visor. The only place Palm will be making money is with their OS, unless they seriously rethink their strategy.

There is a fight ahead, and my money is on Handspring.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Spokane, WA, USA
Posts: 114

Maybe HipHop is just trying to get a rise out of everyone. It seems to be working.

As for that stupid "we can't upgrade the OS" issue, I still say that any massive/major upgrades will _most_likely_ require new hardware (e.g. a new processor and/or new display)... so even a IIIx/V/Vx/VII won't be running stuff. Big flippin' yip. The Visor/IIIx/V/Vx will still be functional for the given hardware specs. So enough already with the OS-upgrade-panic-attack. I think it's an issue that gets blown way out of proportion by people who just don't know any better or who haven't watched technology trends very closely. It's quite tiresome.

As for "serious" users... I'm on a IIIx with FlashPro, using DateBk3, BrainForest, JFile Pro, QuickSheet 4.0, RPN, AvantGo, iSilo (html/doc viewer), Star-Pilot, and a small array of other utilties (ok, and a couple of games)... I use just about every main app quite regularly, and beam DateBook events and docs to a small circle of coworkers regularly. I'm the guy who got five of my coworkers to get the Palm machines in the first place. So am I a "serious" user? You decide.

Regardless, I own a Palm IIIx and am still planning on upgrading (yes, I said "upgrading") to a Visor Deluxe. I think every app I used on my III worked just fine on my IIIx, and I haven't seen them become OS 3.1-exclusive. So I'm going to bank on the Visor doing just fine for my needs. Besides, I like the better screen and the doubled memory. End of story. Sorry for dragging on, but that's my two cents (5 cents Canadian)

- Chazzz Fishburn

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 200

Handspring will be serious competitor if they have a low price Palm V clone.

I presume very strongly that Handspring will lower prices after X-mas.

And hey, I wanted to buy a Visor. I really wanted. But being not sure when it really comes out (keep in mind it's not out yet!) and the other trouble of not sending Visor overseas (but at least allowing overseas customers to pay with credit card and ship to a 3rd party address in the USA), this made me thinking.

I never considered the Palm V coz of it's steep price.....but then out of heaven a oppertunity came on to buy a 2nd hand IIIx with 8Mb.

If you havn't orederd you Visor yet and get in offer for a cheap IIIx would you go for it or not?

I don't think the difference is really big.

(but after using the Palm IIIx for 24hours I understand why people pay so much more for the much smaller Palm V).

Handspring! Beat Palm Vx and I am with you (please add color and sound too).

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1883

well Hiphop,
I'm sorry to inform you that the PAlm V is dead (but it just hasn't realised it...)

Ok, it looks pretty cool, but there a lot of things wrong with it.. see: http://www.pdabuzz.com/Features/ED_PalmV.html for a great editorial about the V.

Let's face it, for the VII the 'stepped back' to the III design....

So I think the Visor will be a big competitor for PAlm..

There's one think I agree with, Handspring should get there international shipping in order ASAP...I think there are a lot of potetial buyer world wide who are willing to buy, but simply can't...

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 200

Toolkit, I had a quick look at the article. I get the point. At that time Palm made a big hype about the new 'Razor' - whjat came out was an exact Palm III copy - only thinner, but the same function. At that time I was a bit dissapointet (when was that anyway?). With such a price tag I don't really understand why they put in only 2Mb.

Well now there is the Vx...

After owning a 2nd hand IIIx (I couldn't wait for the Visor) I think a smaller PDA would be MUCH better. The Vx is on my wishlist.

I think it depends how you look at things. I always like to compare to cars, as both are in the toy category...

There is no reason to buy a Porsche, still, it sells well. Same for the Palm V.

Palm makes a Porsche, Handsprings makes a Honda, which will sell difinitly well and will satisfy lots of users. I would have bought one if it where out then.....

Now I have an IIIx (BMW, older model), but still like the sleek Porsche....

I like to use my IIIx for language learning (Flash!) so I would really like sound. As minimum requirement I try top get hold of an i-vox voice recorder - thats the one function I really miss...

Palm need to give out more OS licenses to establish Palm OS with a wider basis to protect its market from Gates.....

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 74

Hey guys, HipHop always does this look at the other threads. He Visor bashes at VisorCentral, I think it is for attention. Just read his posts, more than half are fictitious babbling, the other 30% is geared to get a rise out of people.

I personally haven't seen him provide a useful answer to any question posted, just his opinion.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1883

OK, i'll bite once more...

If we start to compare PDA's with cars than I agree with you that the palm V would be a porche (good looking but not realy practical and EXPENSIVE)
I would compare the Visor to a MPV with a Ferrari engine, road handling of a german car for the price of a Honda...
the only real car that compares (if you don't look at the pricetag..) would be the lambourgini LM 007 or (a bit cheaper) the AUDI S6 Avant.

It would be the perfect car to me! but still, there will always be people who insinst that a porche is better...

[This message has been edited by ToolkiT (edited 10-05-1999).]

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 200

Toolkit,

make it easy...

Off roader VS. Sports car

I agree, there is no justification for a V - other then style.

Anyway, I think the new Palm prices will put pressure on Handspring too to reduce prices further and sooner then the planned. Lets see, it has even not started.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 69

No doubt about the competetition thang...

I just got an email from Computers4Sure.com...

They're offering the PalmV for $299 and the IIIx for $219.

Hmmm...

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Bellevue, Wa, USA
Posts: 72

Try F350 Superduty or Dodge Ram 3500 v.s. a Porche Boxter. More cargo room, and the best towing capacity in it's class....

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posts: 195

No matter how much they drop the prices on the Palms, they still don't come with 8MB, a Springboard slot, or cool colors (I know. It's only a minor perk.). Once you upgrade to 8MB, you've still paid more for less, cause you don't have the Springboard slot. All hail the Visor!

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: US Military in Germany
Posts: 46

HipHop is a pain in the a$$ at times yes but does bring valid points. I still think most of the arguments are the products of a closed mind.

I owned a Palm III, loved it, sold it to buy a Palm IIIx when I found out about the Visor. Didn't buy the IIIx but placed an order for the Visor, it has been hell this past month without my PDA and watching the friend I sold it to use it.

The Palm and Visor are not exactly competitors anyway, read the papers and some of Dubinsky's stuff. Palm is not only just spun off into a separate company but is moving primarily into licensing of it's OS. Think that sounds like what HipHop suggested. The Visor was CREATED to be more of a mass market device but they definately did not leave out much in the way of power user features. Tell me what you can do on a Palm that you cannot do on a Visor except upgrade the OS. That, for a mass market item is very small, for many, this will be their first PDA so they will go through the normal learning curve and will not be looking to upgrade the OS for some time. Also, Handspring needed to bring a product out before Christmas season to give them an infusion of capital. There is still a strong possibility that they will offer a buy back program for any upgrades that come out immediately following the release of the initial product such as OS 3.3 or a flash ROM memory Visor.

As far as memory is concerned I am sure they wanted to initially keep the prices low to capture a good market coming in.

If things go as I see them, they will release a flash ROM model not long after the initial Visor but if they are reading this forum please take this advice. The flash ROM issue has been the primary issue on this site, if you make a model that is flash ROM upgradable, please offer a buyback or trade up option to those who supported your company when it was in it's infancy. Take care of your customers and they will take care of you.

As for color screens I still think the technology for color LCD screens will still need to become less power intensive, one of the primary selling points of the Palm/Visor is long battery life.

This is one of the reasons the Palm V was a step backward in my book, it is tethered to a charger. If they had designed it to use NiMh AAA batteries and be charged while in the cradle and given it some more memory I would have bought it as soon as it came out. Yes I know that would have made it a little thicker (not a real problem to me) but I travel all over the world (literally) and packing a charger and having time to use it, if it even works on 220 in europe and japan's odd power system is a pain. I have yet to find a country that I could not find a AAA battery in, even in the middle east and carrying an 8 pack is a lot easier than carrying the charger.

HipHop also always seems to leave out the spring board issue. It is the other prime reason for me buying a Visor, it offers an easy path to other features and is limited only by the imagination of programmers and hardware designers which we all know to be limitless. Hell, look at a game boy, who would have ever thought it would have a printer and camera??

[This message has been edited by Trace Myers (edited 10-05-1999).]

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: US Military in Germany
Posts: 46

Sorry about the length of the last post, HipHop's constant nagging was getting to me too I guess.

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Bel Air, MD
Posts: 41

I'm new to both this forum and to PDA's, the Visor Delux I ordered on 9/14 will be my first, but it seems to me that there is alot of discussion about which is better Palm or Visor. Isn't there room for both?

There are literally hundereds of PC manufactures on the market, some admittedly better then others, but several of them, all supporting the same OS, consistantly maintain the same market share.

Why should the PDA market be any differnt? I submit that there is a place for the Visor and for the Palm Pilot. I don't think that only one of these systems will ultimately survive they will most likley both do well.

Slam it if you must, but I had to state my opinion.