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Hey K.C., welcome to the party. If you hadn't been in the other room all that time, flirting with your husband, you could have added some of that much needed "quality K. Cannon attention"!

"1. God has tainted himself by dealing directly with evil, according to the Bible, as he had a conversations with Lucifer regarding Job and his faithfulness and how to test same;"

That was one of the times I was referring to. He can't be tainted though, as it also says of God that he is "Good, all of the time."
What Lucifer was trying to prove to God was that even Job, one of his most faithful servants, was only loyal to God because he had been blessed. God knew better and allowed Lucifer to test Job. Now Job lost everything material, but he never lost his love for the Lord. Lucifer lost the argument.

"I wasn't referring to Newton's law. I was dealing with it's elder sibling."

Was that Fig?

"the kegs are tapped out and all the cute guys are gone!!"

Don't you mean all the available cute guys?

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Originally posted by K. Cannon
...and all the cute guys are gone!!
I'm still here. and I'm available. but you're not
just 'cause there's no flesh on my head and I lack a body doesn't mean I'm not cute.

1. God has tainted himself by dealing directly with evil, according to the Bible, as he had a conversations with Lucifer regarding Job and his faithfulness and how to test same;
There's "blood" on His hands, eh?

Originally posted by dick-richardson
I wasn't referring to Newton's law. I was dealing with it's elder sibling.
explain please. Newton's is the only "actions have consequences" law I know of. Thanks.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick
Newton's is the only "actions have consequences" law I know of. Thanks.

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By Yorick:
**Again, by no means am I a theology scholar. I was of the impression that the snake and the apple was a test. If Adam and Eve did not partake of the apple, then they were worthy of His love and His gift of the garden, and if they did so, if they broke His rule, they were to be cast out and have to make it on their own.**

Many things I have missed since yesterday. This stuck out as the most important in my mind. Without understanding what happened in the Garden, it is tough to really understand why Christ had to die.

Scripture never said it was an Apple, nor did scripture say it was a Snake. Scripture said it was "fruit of a tree" and a serpent that beguiled Eve. It also said that the Serpent was the most subtile beast of the field, obviously intelligent, as it talked to Eve. In addition, it could walk upright. God laid down the curse, that is what sent the serpent to its belly and removed its limbs.

I do not honestly believe that Eve "ate an apple" and brought the fall of man.

As for the story of Job, in no way do I believe God tainted Himself. The most important thing to get from that, is Satan is still subject to God. Satan had to come to God and get permission before he could hurt Job, and even then, he was never allowed to kill Job. Does this mean God allows hurt, absolutely. That is obvious. God created Satan and knew what Satan would turn out to be. However, the sum of all things put together is for God's benefit.

I also have heard mention that many people use religion as a crutch. Now maybe that is true of religion, but it is not true of Born Again Christians. If anything, in this world, true Christians are looked down upon. We are considered weak, losers, freaks. Whatever people want to label us. Now my question is this, how does that equal a Crutch? Sounds more like a broken leg. It takes a strong person to stand up in this world and say they are a Christian. Each and every day that gets harder to do, of course, even that is fulfilling scripture.

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quote:

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originally posted by dick-richardson
So it's possible to be a Catholic Buddhist?

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Originally posted by Yorick:
Now I feel a little like part of an experiment. God sets up three environments: one of all good, one of all evil, and one comingled, and sees which suceeds. We're motes in a petri dish.

Actually, I'd find that idea easier to believe than some beliefs advanced by religions. Sorta reminds me of the Riverworld series that I'm probably going to re-read soon.

I'm reminded of Star Trek's "mirror universe" concept, where those considered "good" in one reality (Kirk, et al.) are "evil" in the other reality, and vice versa. Tho, the "evil" characters there seemingly had different agression levels, so perhaps not a good analogy.

I preferred "Spooky Fish"'s handling of this issue.

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Originally posted by BobbyMike:
You both are close with these comments. First you Toby, God created us in his image- I take that to mean that he gave us free will.

Then you must therefore also take it to mean that God is not 'wholly good'. He must also be capable of 'evil'.

He would have to put limits on his creations.

Hasn't he already done that? If we are created in his image, he's obviously placed 'flaws' in us that differentiate us from him. We have physical bodies which wither and die.

If he doesn't have limits on his free will, how could he truthfully create something in his image that did?

If he doesn't have limits on his powers, how could he truthfully create something in his image that did?

AI proponents have been going through the same quandrary. HOw can you create something that thinks for itself, yet will also do what you want?

Impossible, IMO, which is why I think that AI in general is a bad idea.

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Originally posted by K. Cannon:
God has tainted himself by dealing directly with evil, according to the Bible, as he had a conversations with Lucifer regarding Job and his faithfulness and how to test same;

Tainted himself or already possessed the capacity?

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"Then you must therefore also take it to mean that God is not 'wholly good'. He must also be capable of 'evil'."

My take on what I've read out of the Bible is that he can't be evil, he's all good. He gave his creations free will. Some choose to be disobedient, like Lucifer. Evil means going against God's will. It's impossible for him to be schizophrenic - he's perfect!

"Hasn't he already done that? If we are created in his image, he's obviously placed 'flaws' in us that differentiate us from him. We have physical bodies which wither and die."

Actually we didn't start to wither and die until we began sinning. The supposition is that if we had remained sin-free, we would have lived forever (imagine the overcrowding!). So the aging thing results from mankind's original sin.

"If he doesn't have limits on his powers, how could he truthfully create something in his image that did?"

Who says we do?

"Impossible, IMO, which is why I think that AI in general is a bad idea."

My general feeling also. There has been some people who say true AI would mean the end of the human race as we know it. (Ray Kurziwek? ck. sp)

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Originally posted by dick-richardson:
Damn! More information I have to learn about. Got any good links?

Try this or this.

So it's possible to be a Catholic Buddhist?

Quite possible.

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Originally posted by BobbyMike:
My take on what I've read out of the Bible is that he can't be evil, he's all good. He gave his creations free will. Some choose to be disobedient, like Lucifer. Evil means going against God's will. It's impossible for him to be schizophrenic - he's perfect!

So God is just like a parent that expects his kids to do what he says because he said so, and that they should do as he says and not necessarily as he does. That God is the reason I'm not a religious person. He has no logic or reason.

Who says we do?

God does evidently. Wasn't another part of Satan's sin the fact that he thought himself worthy of being a God as well?

My general feeling also. There has been some people who say true AI would mean the end of the human race as we know it. (Ray Kurziwek? ck. sp)

Kurzweil just like the synthesizer he created.

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"So God is just like a parent that expects his kids to do what he says because he said so, and that they should do as he says and not necessarily as he does. That God is the reason I'm not a religious person. He has no logic or reason."

No, actually God follows the same code of ethics that he expects us to. He won't 'break' any of his own rules. He is very much 'into' cause and effect. You do something and you get a repeatable effect. If you follow his precepts blessings will follow, if you go against his precepts calamity will follow.
He wants acknowledgement for what he has done, and he wants our love. We might like what he asks of us, but I can't think of him being illogical (or reasonable). That seems to come from humans that profess to working on his behalf. His world encompasses logic, reason, and faith. I think a lot of people get disappointed because it's not particularly easy to 'get' Christianity without a 'leap of faith'. You can't just 'think' your way into faith, it also has to 'feel' right. Left brain plus right brain.

"God does evidently. Wasn't another part of Satan's sin the fact that he thought himself worthy of being a God as well?"

His sin was of denying God. He tried to replace God. He didn't want to be "a God", but rather "The God".

"Kurzweil just like the synthesizer he created."

Thanks for the spelling! I am at work and all the articles I have written by him are at home.

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On second thought, I think I'm going to take myself out of this particular part of the thread, since I'm not particularly willing to continue on a line that I'm sure would start offending people quite shortly...

edit: removed response

Last edited by Toby on 07-16-2001 at 07:39 PM

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OK, although If you want to respond directly to me I won't be (my mom once told me that only offensive people get offended!).

I just finished reading the last three 'Space Oddessy' books, and while I don't agree with Clarke, I found his thoughts on the subject interesting.

I find that Religion is best left to discussing with people who(m) you have a prior relationship with and who(m) you can't really offend. Very few paople are passive about the subject and quite a few can get quite peturbed by some one expressing a contrary view.

My sister once gave me a book by Asimov on God/The Bible. It got packed up last November in the move and I still haven't had a chance to set up the library (Yes! I actually have a room in our house that we have put aside as a library/music room!), but I'll try and find it as I can't remember the title.

BobbyMike

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quote:

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
Very few paople are passive about the subject and quite a few can get quite peturbed by some one expressing a contrary view.

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Originally posted by BobbyMike:
OK, although If you want to respond directly to me I won't be (my mom once told me that only offensive people get offended!).

Well, I wasn't worried about offending you per se, but I see it as unlikely that either of us would be approaching this from a point of view that would change the other's mind (since 'faith' is not a valid part of a decision making process for me), so I didn't see any point in continuing it when I'm sure that a casual reader would wind up being offended before it was over.

I just finished reading the last three 'Space Oddessy' books, and while I don't agree with Clarke, I found his thoughts on the subject interesting.

*shrug* I mainly like his laws. I personally prefer my heathen authors more along the lines of Sam Clemens. Letters From The Earth has been on my mind through the course of the discussion.

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I'm sure you're right Toby. Thanks for the sharp stick though. I appreciate having to think about my views, as opposed to just having them.

Yorick, don't forget food 'taboos'. Across cultural divides there may be no quicker way to pissing someone off then by turning your nose up at their main feeds!

I know people who won't eat sushi (raw fish, yuck!), but will scarf down cracklin's (If you don't know, don't ask). I've eaten both, but I won't eat escargot! (I do like home-made goose liver pate', so if you're French, don't berate me!)

I grew up poor, so I'll try anything once!

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Reading Toby's response has raised some questions in my mind, I have to say. Can Toby make it to heaven given his unbelief? Jesus only laid out two commandments:

• To love God with the entirety of a person's being.
• To love one's neighbor as one's self.

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Originally posted by dick-richardson:
Reading Toby's response has raised some questions in my mind, I have to say. Can Toby make it to heaven given his unbelief?

Unbelief in what, though, might be the question. I purposefully haven't advanced any particular belief or unbelief.

Even given the example of Doubting Thomas,

Well, Thomas is my father's name.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Toby
Unbelief in what, though, might be the question. I purposefully haven't advanced any particular belief or unbelief.

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