Discussion > Other Areas of Interest > All Handhelds > Did Palm learn anything from Sony's S500c mistake?
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It's not only the screen...
By: Fat_Man @ 08:51 AM
You've made some very good points, Brad. You are right in that you cannot really judge the m505's screen until you use it for a few days. So I guess that an in-store judge may not be entirely fair. I first saw a m505 last saturday, and truthfully the screen did not change my opionion (maybe I was bias beforehand). Under the florescence lights of Office Office, I had slight difficulty viewing the screen, it appears that to get the maximal reflective brightness, I had to angle the m505 slightly to view the screen. The backlight helped slightly.
My second point is that I agree with Mikedemo. Palm has seriously lagged behind its licensees, namely, Handspring and Sony. The m505 and m500 was suppose to be Palm's "next generation" of Palm V's, full of improvements and innovations.
However
If you trace the origins of the major new features of the m500 and m505, they did not come from Palm, but they came from Palm's licensees.
Major m505/m500 features (first developed in)
1. 33 mhz processor (Handspring Prism/Platinum)
2. 16-bit color (Handspring Prism)
3. SD card slot and VFS access (Sony Clie)
4. reflective screen (Sony Clie S500C)
I thought that Palm should be leading in the research and development division, not sitting back and leech off its licensees.
That would mean that Palm will always be 6-8 months late to offer any new/re-created features into their next handheld. In other word, Palm will always be late in the cutting-edge features market.
That's a bigger disappointment than the screen.
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Re: It's not only the screen...
By: mikedemo @ 04:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fat_Man
. . . Palm has seriously lagged behind its licensees, namely, Handspring and Sony. The m505 and m500 was suppose to be Palm's "next generation" of Palm V's, full of improvements and innovations. . .
. . . I thought that Palm should be leading in the research and development division, not sitting back and leech off its licensees. . .
Ditto 
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Re: It's not only the screen...
By: dalamar70 @ 07:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fat_Man
I thought that Palm should be leading in the research and development division, not sitting back and leech off its licensees.
I think most people take Palm for granted and don't give them enough credit for innovation:
1. Palm invented the thin PDA (V/Vx). It took HS quite a while to come out with the competing Edge product, for example.
2. Integrating everything together is an innovation in itself. Otherwise you'd have to buy a Prism, a Clie and a Vx to get all those things you mentioned.
3. Palm is still the only company that has a PalmOS PDA with integrated wireless connectivity, and that will be updated soon.
4. They're doing all that ARM-based PalmOS 5 stuff.
Of course the licensees have done a lot of great work too. But I don't see any reason why Palm should be the "main" innovator -- and if they were, then people would just turn around and complain that HS/Handera/Sony weren't leading!
Re: Re: It's not only the screen...
By: Toby @ 07:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dalamar70
I think most people take Palm for granted and don't give them enough credit for innovation:
1. Palm invented the thin PDA (V/Vx). It took HS quite a while to come out with the competing Edge product, for example.
3. Palm is still the only company that has a PalmOS PDA with integrated wireless connectivity, and that will be updated soon.
I'm not so sure that it's fair to consider these Palm's innovations since they weren't done under the leadership of the current Palm people. They were done under the leadership of _Handspring's_ current people (although the Palm VII was supposedly done under duress).
By: Slot_Machine @ 08:40 PM
The current Palm Chief has made some comments that make him sound like "Joe CEO" who is just doing a stint at Palm before he moves on to bigger and better things. He'd drop Palm and run a watermelon company if the price was right.
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By: yaz320 @ 09:09 PM
quote:
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised Yaz320! Wait till you see how much the OS mimics the real Windows!
As a matter of fact I borrowed my friends iPaq for a week, and it was awesome!!! Whats wrong with windows??? I bet your are most likely on Windows.
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By: Gameboy70 @ 10:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by yaz320
As a matter of fact I borrowed my friends iPaq for a week, and it was awesome!
Great. There's nothing wrong with liking a product.
quote:
Whats wrong with windows?
The context. On a 3" screen, hierarchical menus, start buttons (regardless of how they're disguised), splash screens (a disease that's infecting more and more third party Palm apps as well), etc. are more disruptive than helpful, at least for me.
quote:
I bet your are most likely on Windows.
Irrelevant. Linux Mandrake 7.1 is my primary desktop, but I have almost no interest in Linux handhelds. And on a 19" monitor, the Palm OS would suck.
Re: Re: Re: It's not only the screen...
By: dalamar70 @ 12:13 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Toby
I'm not so sure that it's fair to consider these Palm's innovations since they weren't done under the leadership of the current Palm people. They were done under the leadership of _Handspring's_ current people (although the Palm VII was supposedly done under duress).
True, but then you could be the devil's advocate and also say that HS wasn't innovative because Springboard, USB, 33MHz, 16-bit color, etc. were done by _Palm's_ old people. (Just being difficult. 
)
Well
By: bblue @ 02:43 AM
Right on D70. Mr. Stankowski at Palm has already stated that Palm's not gonna explore the boundries. They're gonna build the foundation for it's licensees, and improve off of their products
The Five-Series form factor? Nobody does it better than Palm. The expansion? Sure, Handspring & Sony have done this before, except these "supposed" SD modules will be something amazing if they ever come out. You'll never see that from Handspring or Sony. Maybe something close.
And Palm wants to stick to the basics, without falling hideously behind. And to be honest, they've done this extraordinarily well. Look at how Palm has progressed the Handheld insdustry software-wise! The Mobile Internet Kit? The Cute-but-pointless Faceplates? Palm simply doesn't want to be the Handheld Giant. It wants to be just "another company" and focus more in on something more important: the Palm community. Not just Palm Users, Handspring users, HandEra Users, Kyocera Users, and Sony Users.
That is why I think the Palm OS will never be overcome by PPC.
Oh, BTW, some notes:
I'm running Mac OSX!
Dubinsky? Yankowsky? Boris Yeltson! (j/k) ha ha ... not funny
And how much longer do you think it is before Jeff Hawkins leaves to form another start-up PDA company?
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By: Fat_Man @ 05:05 AM
quote:
The Five-Series form factor? Nobody does it better than Palm.
I agree, the Palm V form factor is pretty cool, but the emphasis is the Palm V form factor. The shape of the m500/m505 IS more than two years old, how long does Palm expect to keep that shape without it becoming boring? I would like to see Palm do it again...come up with another trend setting shape. Again, it has being over two years! Is it not about time for an update?
quote:
The expansion? Sure, Handspring & Sony have done this before, except these "supposed" SD modules will be something amazing if they ever come out. You'll never see that from Handspring or Sony. Maybe something close.
I would like to add more to that statement. Do you realize that there are no SD modules except memory in existence yet?
From PalmInfocenter:
"The models from Palm use the SD standard and the SD Card Association hasn't yet finalized the specification needed to let input/output devices work. This will delay any SDIO devices until at least this Fall.
Palm has been showing an array of mock-ups of SD slot peripherals for months but all appear to be non-functional and none of them has even a projected release date or price."
In other words, not only are the SD modules not on the drawing board, the drawing board is not even there yet!!
Read further: http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_...7&MODE=FLAT
Sony also has memory stick modules schedule to be ready in the fall. In fact, IMHO, their arsenal of modules rival that of, if not surpass, Palm's.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_...8&MODE=FLAT
Handspring, on the other hand, has over 40 working modules on the market, their springboard slot was design for expansion, making them more versatile. So clearly, Handspring has the upper hand in the expansion market.
quote:
And Palm wants to stick to the basics, without falling hideously behind. And to be honest, they've done this extraordinarily well. Look at how Palm has progressed the Handheld insdustry software-wise!
Yeah, then explain to me why m500/m505 users have to use software develope by Clie users to access files and programs stored in the SD card?
quote:
And how much longer do you think it is before Jeff Hawkins leaves to form another start-up PDA company?
I think the more appropriate question is: How much longer before Hawkins and company overtake Palm and buy it?
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Well...
By: bblue @ 05:24 AM
Well, here's where I think you're wrong. The 5 series form factor is so good, the only thing Palm could have done was to fine-tune it. And that's what they did. They got rid of the excess bulk, and rounded off some of its corners. The 5 series form, while old, still looks chic. And someone else has yet to improve on it (Handspring!)(Sony!) . I think if you actually SAW an M505/M500 right next to say... an iPaq, you'd be quite impressed what Palm has done to it. You really cannot judge it by the photos.
Now, keep in mind the Pam also uses MMC cards. We may thank our Napster-hating RIAA for causing such a mess with this SMDI khrap. Truth is, within 3 days of its release, there will be a code to crack it, and you can bet that it will fit nicely within a loophole of the DMCA. However, MMC is already supported. I think in the future, the SD slot will be wonderful. If you need something now, it's either Handspring or Sony.
And finally, just because some apps used for the Memorystick are still useful for the palm M5X series doesn't mean they don't push the envelope on software innovation on their OS. Just because Mac OSX doesn't have an included hack for the dock bar on the bottom of the screen doesn't mean it isn't to date the World's most advanced desktop capable OS. (Note: desktop capable.) The same goes for Palm. They're trying out something new, and it's still got bugs.
Once again, you're nitpicking at Palm.
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By: bkbk @ 06:17 AM
Yeah, it's pretty hard to top the V.
If it never happens, I won't really be surprised.
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By: dalamar70 @ 06:43 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Fat_Man
I agree, the Palm V form factor is pretty cool, but the emphasis is the Palm V form factor. The shape of the m500/m505 IS more than two years old, how long does Palm expect to keep that shape without it becoming boring? I would like to see Palm do it again...come up with another trend setting shape. Again, it has being over two years! Is it not about time for an update?
First, they did come up with another trend-setting shape, the m100 series, which has supposedly been quite popular. Second, they probably want to stick with something recognizable as a high-end Palm, and something suitably "executive looking" and not too wild. I don't know how many leopard m100 face plates or orange imacs end up in executive offices... Finally, I agree with bblue that you're really picking the nits here. Apple hasn't updated their iMac or PowerMac in a couple of years either.
quote:
Originally posted by Fat_Man
I would like to add more to that statement. Do you realize that there are no SD modules except memory in existence yet?
How many springboard modules were available two years ago? Although I agree that SB is better than SD for expansion, we should see what Palm&Co come up with first before condemning them.
Finally, again I don't know that being the innovator is worth that many points to most consumers. If you're too innovative people will be afraid to buy -- worries of incompatibilities, new learning curve, broad industry support and standards, bugs in the initial releases. How long will it take the Itanium to actually work well, or for people to buy Pentium 4's, or for Apple to phase out OS9.1 and earlier? People are more willing to buy something more stable, which is what Palm provides. It's a tough market out there especially these days.
Re: Well...
By: Fat_Man @ 07:08 AM
quote:
And finally, just because some apps used for the Memorystick are still useful for the palm M5X series doesn't mean they don't push the envelope on software innovation on their OS. Just because Mac OSX doesn't have an included hack for the dock bar on the bottom of the screen doesn't mean it isn't to date the World's most advanced desktop capable OS. (Note: desktop capable.) The same goes for Palm. They're trying out something new, and it's still got bugs.
Again, I really hate to "nitpick", but Palm is NOT "trying out something new"!! The SD/MMC card access through the VFS (virtual file system) was developed by Sony. That was my point, Palm is {B]NOT[/B] pushing the envelope in anything, their licensees are, and Palm is merely copying it. That's why software that worked in the Clie worked in the new Palms.
quote:
The 5 series form factor is so good, the only thing Palm could have done was to fine-tune it.
I agree, the Palm V form factor is good, but I think it is unwise to remain stagnant and fixated on a particular form.
quote:
Now, keep in mind the Pam also uses MMC cards.
Ok, so the palm can use MMC cards. Are there any modules? I'm asking cause I don't know, but I have not read about any MMC palm compatible modules.
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By: Fat_Man @ 07:23 AM
quote:
How many springboard modules were available two years ago? Although I agree that SB is better than SD for expansion, we should see what Palm&Co come up with first before condemning them.
I agree, and I don't have any condemnation toward the SD modules. The point I wanted to stress was on the other end of the spectum. BBlue made a statement that the SD module will be something "amazing". I was only trying to point out that we don't know that they "will be amazing" because they have not yet been developed yet.
quote:
Second, they probably want to stick with something recognizable as a high-end Palm
That's also a good point, I guess Palm can retain the Palm V shape for product recognition, like the grill on a BMW. That is a good reason for retaining the shape. Good point!! I take my stagnant image back. 
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