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I think it is too generic to be a spoiler. It does not give away any plot lines for Reloaded.

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Originally posted by KRamsauer
You should have put a spoiler warning on that one.

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My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?

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I think you are on onto something here Toby. If I say anything more it would ruin it for someone that haven't seen the movie as yet. I will send you a PM.

quote:

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Originally posted by Toby
or perhaps what they think is the real world is simply another level to the matrix. ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by yardie
I think it is too generic to be a spoiler. It does not give away any plot lines for Reloaded.

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quote:

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Originally posted by KRamsauer
Think so? It gives away the ending and the lead-in to the final movie.

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Oh come now, it doesn't do any such thing. What machines? He didn't say. The only way anyone would have a clue as to what he meant was if they've seen it already. It's not like revealed that Trinity dies. Oops.

Registered: Apr 2002
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Posts: 734

quote:

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Originally posted by Toby

Oh come now, it doesn't do any such thing. What machines? He didn't say. The only way anyone would have a clue as to what he meant was if they've seen it already. It's not like revealed that Trinity dies. Oops.

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quote:

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Originally posted by KRamsauer
Nor does he mention the big broadway musical dance scene at the end where they join hands with the Sentinels and sing.

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Registered: Mar 2003
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Great movie overall.

Finally, I was able to watch it yesterday. The CG, FX, and the martial arts stunts are amazing. As for the dialogue, I think it's not as good as the first matrix movie. Also, in the celebration scene, I think they show too much footage of the crowd and not enough of the romantic dialogue between trinity and neo.

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joe

Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 7

SPOILER!!!! - Do NOT read if you haven't seen the movie.



!!!!!! SPOILER !!!!! - STOP READING


*********** This is a S P O I L E R ! ! ! **************


Ok. Not ripping on anyone here - just wanted to make sure nobody read this who didn't see the movie. I hate reading spoilers myself so I didn't want to do that to anyone.

Neo was able to stop those machines because EVERYTHING we saw in the two movies was the Matrix. No one EVER got out. The Architect explained that two versions - not one as explained in the first movie - failed before this one. The first one, explained in the first movie, was a perfect world and was rejected by the human mind. The second one was like the real world but eventually crashed because no one had choice which caused the human mind to reject it as well and caused it to crash. The current version created the illusion of choice by creating a Zion that humans could think they could escape to. Once too many get there though, the program becomes unbalanced and needs to be reset and started over again. A person gaining powers such as Neo was part of the cycle and signalled when the program needed to be reset. That's why the machines were so confident they would destroy Zion. They had already done it 5 times before. That's why the Architect said that Neo was version 6. Once destroyed, a dozen or so people would be put in Zion again to start the cycle over. This explains my own question from the first movie which was who the heck built Zion in the first place and how the heck did the first human freed find it? It also explains how Agent Smith was able to go through the phone to infect someone in Zion. The real questions are: what can Neo do about this in the next movie, and is The Oracle in co-hoots with the Architect? I think she is because the Architect said that the Oracle came up with the free choice solution. And how else could she hide from the Agents for so long?

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Thanks! That's really informative.

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<a href="http://www.kurtramsauer.com">KurtRamsauer.com</a>

Registered: Jun 2002
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Actually, I didn't even see the movie. It looks pretty good though.

Registered: Feb 2000
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Huh? How could you have said all that without actually watching the movie?

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob-C
Actually, I didn't even see the movie. It looks pretty good though.

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My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?

Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Philadelphia
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Was only kidding. I saw it on the first night. Should've started a rumor that the new Treo was cameo'd in the movie instead!

Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Shanghai, China
Posts: 24

When I saw what happened at the end, I was a bit disappointed. I was hoping for an original ending, but if it turns out how I think it will, the story has already been told in a different movie. But the funny thing is, that movie came out after The Matrix! Highlight between the arrows to see the name of the movie. >>The Thirteenth Floor<<
IMDB info on the other movie

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: "Children are a gift from God, they are a reward"
Posts: 1049

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob-C
SPOILER!!!! - Do NOT read if you haven't seen the movie.



!!!!!! SPOILER !!!!! - STOP READING


*********** This is a S P O I L E R ! ! ! **************


Ok. Not ripping on anyone here - just wanted to make sure nobody read this who didn't see the movie. I hate reading spoilers myself so I didn't want to do that to anyone.

Neo was able to stop those machines because EVERYTHING we saw in the two movies was the Matrix. No one EVER got out. The Architect explained that two versions - not one as explained in the first movie - failed before this one. The first one, explained in the first movie, was a perfect world and was rejected by the human mind. The second one was like the real world but eventually crashed because no one had choice which caused the human mind to reject it as well and caused it to crash. The current version created the illusion of choice by creating a Zion that humans could think they could escape to. Once too many get there though, the program becomes unbalanced and needs to be reset and started over again. A person gaining powers such as Neo was part of the cycle and signalled when the program needed to be reset. That's why the machines were so confident they would destroy Zion. They had already done it 5 times before. That's why the Architect said that Neo was version 6. Once destroyed, a dozen or so people would be put in Zion again to start the cycle over. This explains my own question from the first movie which was who the heck built Zion in the first place and how the heck did the first human freed find it? It also explains how Agent Smith was able to go through the phone to infect someone in Zion. The real questions are: what can Neo do about this in the next movie, and is The Oracle in co-hoots with the Architect? I think she is because the Architect said that the Oracle came up with the free choice solution. And how else could she hide from the Agents for so long?

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
[...] I see the Smith/Bane infection as something more akin to something like Neal Stephanson used in Snowcrash, or basically that the human mind is nothing more than a very fast computer that can be hacked and is susceptible to viruses. [...]

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In human terms, they would be referred to as memes. I don't recall if Snowcrash used the term (it's been a while), but a meme is a human algorithm (like baking bread, religion, etc. ).

quote:

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[...] Merovighian [...]

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Merovingian.

Registered: Feb 2000
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You can find an interestinf article that talks about Matrix 2 and 3 here: http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

And for those like me that that did not fully understand what the architect said: http://www.leesmovieinfo.net/specia...adedSpeech1.php

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My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Toby
In human terms, they would be referred to as memes. I don't recall if Snowcrash used the term (it's been a while), but a meme is a human algorithm (like baking bread, religion, etc. ).[B]Merovingian.

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Last edited by BobbyMike on 06-03-2003 at 03:01 AM

Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 7

I'll have to watch the movie again but I had thought the Architect had said the opposite. That every version of Neo had chosen the girl and that if any had chosen differently they could've crashed the entire mainframe and saved Zion. But that none had been able to overcome their love for the girl. I was watching the first movie again this weekend and thought that played into the Oracle telling Trinity that she would fall in love with Neo before she had even met him. The implication of both instances being that every version of Trinity had done the same before just as every Neo had done the same saving the girl over crashing the mainframe and that there was really no free choice. Only illusion.

In the first movie, Morpheus also explained that when the Matrix started there was one who could change the Matrix to his will and that he freed the first few. The Oracle had predicted his return and that's who they thought Neo was. Obviously the Oracle new this from it having cycled through several times previously. This coincides with the Architect telling Neo he would get to choose the first few to re-populate Zion after it fell. If she was really an ally I think she could have explained this to everyone long ago. Instead she concealed the truth and perpetuated the myth of a Messiah who in reality just resets the program to ultimately keep the system running.

I believe the Agents call Neo the Anomaly because they are unaware of the cycle and are reset everytime the Matrix starts over. In the first movie it was explained that the Agents were sentient programs. Later, Trinity asked Neo how he could move like them when he dodged the bullets. This has now made me start to wonder if Neo is even human or just another program like the Oracle, Agents and Architect just fullfiling his programmed role in the system. Neo also flatlined in the first movie and was brought back by Trinity kissing him. Unless this was just a bad cliche, the only explanation for this as well was that everything depicted in the movie has been happening inside the Matrix.

Too bad I don't play video games anymore. It sounds as if the Enter the Matrix game could provide some extra info. Maybe the Animatrix DVD will. If not I'll just have wait until Revolutions.

Bob

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 734

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob-C
Neo also flatlined in the first movie and was brought back by Trinity kissing him. Unless this was just a bad cliche, the only explanation for this as well was that everything depicted in the movie has been happening inside the Matrix.

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*****Major Spoilers here*****

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob-C
I'll have to watch the movie again but I had thought the Architect had said the opposite.

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Yes, you really should see it again given what you've said so far in the thread. You should really watch the first one again too.

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That every version of Neo had chosen the girl and that if any had chosen differently they could've crashed the entire mainframe and saved Zion.

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No. Neo was given functionally one option. He was to return the code he carried to the Matrix and pick 23 individuals to rebuild Zion (16 female, 7 male) because Zion was about to be destroyed by the sentinels. Failure to comply would lead to a cataclysmic system crash of the matrix killing everyone connected to it. This combined with the impending destruction of Zion would lead to the extinction of the human race.

quote:

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But that none had been able to overcome their love for the girl.

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You've got it exactly backwards. If the Architect is to be believed, the previous Ones had obviously chosen Zion because of their affinity with humanity (and Zion and the Matrix still existed). The Architect was also intrigued because while the previous affinity with humanity was more general, Neo's was quite specific 'vis-a-vis love' to Trinity.

quote:

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I was watching the first movie again this weekend and thought that played into the Oracle telling Trinity that she would fall in love with Neo before she had even met him. The implication of both instances being that every version of Trinity had done the same before just as every Neo had done the same saving the girl over crashing the mainframe and that there was really no free choice. Only illusion.

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If the mainframe were crashed by the previous Ones, then there wouldn't have been subsequent Ones.

quote:

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In the first movie, Morpheus also explained that when the Matrix started there was one who could change the Matrix to his will and that he freed the first few. The Oracle had predicted his return and that's who they thought Neo was. Obviously the Oracle new this from it having cycled through several times previously. This coincides with the Architect telling Neo he would get to choose the first few to re-populate Zion after it fell.

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The question that really should bake your noodle is whether or not he would have become the One if the Oracle hadn't predicted it.

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If she was really an ally I think she could have explained this to everyone long ago. Instead she concealed the truth and perpetuated the myth of a Messiah who in reality just resets the program to ultimately keep the system running.

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Ahh, but the real question is whether or not she's on the Architect's side or not. That's not been established yet. AAMOF, I think the hints suggest she's a rogue program.

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I believe the Agents call Neo the Anomaly because they are unaware of the cycle and are reset everytime the Matrix starts over.

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Doubtful. If they didn't know at least part of the big picture (as the Architect relays it), how would they know about an anomaly in the first place? I think their usage of the term suggests they at least know he has a role somewhat important to the Architect.

quote:

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In the first movie it was explained that the Agents were sentient programs. Later, Trinity asked Neo how he could move like them when he dodged the bullets. This has now made me start to wonder if Neo is even human or just another program like the Oracle, Agents and Architect just fullfiling his programmed role in the system.

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It's not totally clear what Neo is yet. I think the brothers are seeding some doubt purposely.

quote:

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Neo also flatlined in the first movie and was brought back by Trinity kissing him.

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No, that was for fairy tale effect. Neo didn't die simply because he stopped accepting the 'reality' of the Matrix.

quote:

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Unless this was just a bad cliche, the only explanation for this as well was that everything depicted in the movie has been happening inside the Matrix. [...]

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No, the explanation is that you only die in the Matrix and in real life if you totally accept that the Matrix is real. "Do you believe that my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles in this place? Do you think that's air you're breathing now?" "The body cannot live without the mind."