Registered: Dec 1999
Location: "Children are a gift from God, they are a reward"
Posts: 1049

Toby wrote:
"How is it any worse than oil waste? They haven't come up with a safe way to do _that_ yet. They just shuffle it off to some backwater town with a name that Ed Bradley can't pronounce correctly, and hope that no one notices."

I didn't say it was worse, I just don't think it's better. Three bad things are not better than two. I would love to see it work out from the stand point of no emissions are produced into the atmosphere (just steam right?).

RGMOOSE wrote:
"Except that Mom then drives around all day shopping or another 10 miles to work in a 14 mpg versus a 28 mpg Honda Accord."

C'mon, talk about stereotyping! You are sadly mistaken if you believe Moms drive around shopping all day. Blaming even part of society's problems on someone else, anyone else, is an easy way to duck out of your own complicity in the problem. We here in America built a society based on wide open spaces. Until someone develops an engine that can drive a wide variety of vehicles (people in this country deserve the responsibility of choices) then we're stuck with internal combustion (just like our present political parties). It's just the most efficient way to move lots of separate vehicles the average distance Americans drive. If you truly believe internal combustion is evil and can't develop an alternate engine for everyone to use you could still always scrap your car, buy a bike, horse, llama, donkey, etc.(Don't fool yourself into thinking an electric car car is better- I don't think it's possible to make or run one of those without involving I.C. engines of some type, somewhere in the process). Eat only food that you grow yourself (cuts out trucking in food) or local produce. Etc. etc. etc.
Ok, ok, I know that's a little extreme for most people. I also think that for most people higher gas prices won't necessarily be a bad thing. People will drive less, saving their gas for important trips, maybe even spending less money on luxuries like cable, imported ice cream, and alcohol.

RGMOOSE also wrote:
"God I love this country, at least we can still talk about stuff like this and not worry about the KGB or some other secret police force knocking down our doors."

I agree totally. Couldn't have said it better!

Toby:
Me, quote:
[...] And worse of all it pits the two groups against each other.

You, quote:
Well, usually more than two, but yeah.

I usually have seen it boiled down to us vs. them, but I guess there is always going to be divisions even in those two groups. (I guess I have seen the worth of quotes, eh?)

Michael

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Modesto, CA USA
Posts: 599

Let me make this perfectly clear.

quote:

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
Toby wrote:


RGMOOSE wrote:
"Except that Mom then drives around all day shopping or another 10 miles to work in a 14 mpg versus a 28 mpg Honda Accord."

C'mon, talk about stereotyping! You are sadly mistaken if you believe Moms drive around shopping all day. Blaming even part of society's problems on someone else, anyone else, is an easy way to duck out of your own complicity in the problem. We here in America built a society based on wide open spaces. Until someone develops an engine that can drive a wide variety of vehicles (people in this country deserve the responsibility of choices) then we're stuck with internal combustion (just like our present political parties). It's just the most efficient way to move lots of separate vehicles the average distance Americans drive. If you truly believe internal combustion is evil and can't develop an alternate engine for everyone to use you could still always scrap your car, buy a bike, horse, llama, donkey, etc.(Don't fool yourself into thinking an electric car car is better- I don't think it's possible to make or run one of those without involving I.C. engines of some type, somewhere in the process). Eat only food that you grow yourself (cuts out trucking in food) or local produce. Etc. etc. etc.
Ok, ok, I know that's a little extreme for most people. I also think that for most people higher gas prices won't necessarily be a bad thing. People will drive less, saving their gas for important trips, maybe even spending less money on luxuries like cable, imported ice cream, and alcohol.
Michael

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Moose Man
I may be from the LEFT coast but that's not the correct political view in my mind!

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

BobbyMike said:

quote:

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Don't fool yourself into thinking an electric car car is better- I don't think it's possible to make or run one of those without involving I.C. engines of some type, somewhere in the process

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For now, you are correct. But they already are better in terms of efficiency. The Honda Insight is a hybrid car that gets 70mpg. Toyota has their hybrid car out too.

Is it any surprise that the first mass-produced electric cars are NOT from American auto companies

RSGMoose said:

quote:

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The bottom line is: change will not be implemented to internal combustion engines towards a replacement until the consumer forces the issue and complains about the cost of gasoline being too high. Then Detroit will respond to both the consumer pressure and the governmental pressure.

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EXACTLY! The big wave of public interest in alternative energies happened in the oil crisis of the 70s. People actually started to embrace small cars, good gas mileage, and things like solar and wind power.

Then what happened? Gas got cheap again...and since we're lazy Americans and we just went back to our old habits.

Just think where we'd be today if we would have kept the same pace in exploring alternative energies and higher efficiency transportation as we did in the 70s.

Recently, Amtrak FINALLY came out with their bullet train on the NE corridor. I believe Tommy Thompson was the one who announced the amazing new train that could hit speeds of something like 100 mph.

It must feel good to have transportation technology as advanced as Europe circa 1970.

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Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Modesto, CA USA
Posts: 599

Yea

One other thing, albeit a small item, most of the Detroit designed engines now are more efficient then the Japanese. We have done a good job in figuring out how to get the most out of our engines because we are so dependent upon cars and gasoline.

The average price of a Japanese car in the 70's was 9,000 and the average domestic vehicle was about 12,000.

That has now reversed and the average domestic vehicle is about 17,000 with the average Japanese being about 21,000. This because the Japanese saw what was happening to the lazy American's and decided to put out the Acura, Lexus and Infiniti brands which we were hungry to accept.

Now more bad news, the cost of gas is going up again and the first people to the market are the Japanese with the high mileage hybrid vehicles.

Detroit might yet again be behind the curve, as they were in the 70's. Yet, they didn't learn from History. How sad!

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Moose Man
I may be from the LEFT coast but that's not the correct political view in my mind!

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 99

quote:

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Originally posted by broache
If you look at the voting map, it sure looks like Bush won by a TON. I know that it is really a representation of land area votes, but Bush won the heartland of America, which I truly feel represents what most people think.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:

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Originally posted by jeffbeerman2
[...] Yes, I guess George Bush won the cow vote, but what is the point in that?

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

The thing that I find most interesting in this whole debacle is how clear it is that we can never escape our points of view. I'm a liberal, and despite believing intellectually that there was no conspiracy involved in the election--it was just close and Bush won the tactics game--I still feel cheated. And I fully believe that I shouldn't feel cheated. And on the other side, conservatives can't help but feel self-righteous about the whole thing...

...thing is, if the situation had been reversed, we'd be saying the exact same things, only the people saying them would be flipped. As much as this election illuminates politics and the electoral system, it shines the brightest and most interesting light on us.

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Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

dietrichbohn:

Well put.

We'd all be better off if we listened to each other more and actually accepted the idea that our minds COULD be changed.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:

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Originally posted by dietrichbohn
The thing that I find most interesting in this whole debacle is how clear it is that we can never escape our points of view. I'm a liberal, and despite believing intellectually that there was no conspiracy involved in the election--it was just close and Bush won the tactics game--

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location:
Posts: 447

I just want to spark a little life into this thread. My opinion? The only good thing that came out of the election was the show "That's my Bush!" But...it's going to be cancelled soon, so....

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Elkins Park, Pa
Posts: 577

I thought they closed this thread. Hmmm. What do you all think of this new Stem Cell decision?

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"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Maryland Go Terps!
Posts: 59

I thought that the decision that Bush made was right on. I am pro-life, and I am against the destruction of embrios (sp?) for research purposes. By allowing reasearch on the lines of stem cells that have already been extracted, he is in no way compromising his beliefs. As he stated, the Life and death decision has already been made, so we should use the information to our benefit. It is just like the Nazi's medical testing in WWII. Although it was sick and wrong, I feel as though it would be an insult to those who died not to use that research to benefit society. I do not agree with the decision to kill for medical testing, but if the killing has already occured, we should make the best of a bad thing, and allow it to benefit society. I feel as though Bush made the perfect decision.

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

I agree with chuckster.

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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Modesto, CA USA
Posts: 599

Agreement

I agree with Chuckser and Dick-Richardson on this issue.

Cloning of entire human beings though is something I can not endorse but since the stems cells were already in existence then research should proceed.

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Moose Man
I may be from the LEFT coast but that's not the correct political view in my mind!