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JHromadka
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Texan in Calgary for a while
Posts: 1361

Discuss the CompactFlash module and its ramifications here.

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James Hromadka
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02-01-2001 02:59 PM

Hoser_back_home
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: bright side of the moon.
Posts: 996

an answer to your question: 'What will happen to the TRGPro now'

well, until somebody develops the ability to run apps right off the CF and a speaker on the visor that can be used to dial phones, not much. The former would be the ultimate TRGPro killer feature. The sound feature isn't so important, in comparison.

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02-01-2001 03:12 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by JHromadka
Discuss the CompactFlash module and its ramifications here.

I've still yet to build mine, although I've got the parts for two of them. The only things that are missing to make it a killer app (as opposed to a useful and cool one, as it currently is) are 1) a jpeg viewer along the lines of the one that is supposed to come with the Memplug and 2) an app like TRG's AutoCF which would allow databases to be read directly from the CF (or more accurately the relevant bits copied to and from RAM on the fly). The first would obviously be useful for those of us that have CF cameras. The second would probably drive the demand for these things _way_ up.

02-01-2001 03:15 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by Hoser_in_USA
an answer to your question: 'What will happen to the TRGPro now'

well, until somebody develops the ability to run apps right off the CF and a speaker on the visor that can be used to dial phones, not much. {...}

I can't see why someone hasn't come up with a DTMF springboard by now. Hmmm...I wonder if any of the voice recorders could serve the purpose. That would be phreaky cool.

02-01-2001 03:19 PM

george_vc
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Here
Posts: 213

Not more memory, only more storage

The ultimate for me would be the ability to add "real memory" to the visor with the CF card and leaving the springport availability to I/O devices. This is a nice interim step, but not the solution needed in my personal opinion.

02-01-2001 04:57 PM

Nuncio
Member

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Norton, MA
Posts: 4

CF wishes...

I agree -
What I want most out of CF is the ability to move the card from my camera to my Visor and view the pictures.
Having the apps be able to read from the CF on the fly (like the 8MB Flash Springboard Module) would be wonderful.

Ideally, though, I'd like to be able to directly expand the memory (RAM) of my Prism.

Any takers?

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
quote:
Originally posted by JHromadka
Discuss the CompactFlash module and its ramifications here.

I've still yet to build mine, although I've got the parts for two of them. The only things that are missing to make it a killer app (as opposed to a useful and cool one, as it currently is) are 1) a jpeg viewer along the lines of the one that is supposed to come with the Memplug and 2) an app like TRG's AutoCF which would allow databases to be read directly from the CF (or more accurately the relevant bits copied to and from RAM on the fly). The first would obviously be useful for those of us that have CF cameras. The second would probably drive the demand for these things _way_ up.

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02-01-2001 06:47 PM

mmendo1
Member

Registered: Jan 2001
Location:
Posts: 125

I have what may sound like a stupid question but here it goes: Does this new CF hardware/software combination mean visor owners can now use compact flash modems? Thanks for any response.

Marty

02-01-2001 08:57 PM

dkessler
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Plant City, FL
Posts: 385

quote:
Originally posted by mmendo1
I have what may sound like a stupid question but here it goes: Does this new CF hardware/software combination mean visor owners can now use compact flash modems? Thanks for any response.

Nope. Storage cards only. Check out http://kopsisengineering.com/cf_compat.html for more info.

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<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>

02-01-2001 09:19 PM

miradu
TreoCentral Staff

Registered: May 2000
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 1429

Very nice review!

I don't think the visor will replace the TRG pro anytime soon, becasue each device (clie, visor, palm, trg) all have their respective groups. Each device fills the need for different people, where I can't see any use for Palm, TRGpro, and clie have their neiche.

OFFTOPIC:

I need supplys to build my short adaptor compact flash board. This is not immediate (my money supply will be up enough by Feburary) but I am looking for springboard cases, and the short adapter. E-mail me!

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02-01-2001 09:34 PM

Gameboy70
Member

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Metro Station, Hollywood and Highland
Posts: 1018

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
I can't see why someone hasn't come up with a DTMF springboard by now. Hmmm...I wonder if any of the voice recorders could serve the purpose. That would be phreaky cool.

I assume DTMF stands for some type of dial tone device. I read an explanation somewhere that a tone dialer requires the ability to generate two frequencies simulateously, where the Visor's speaker can only generate one at a time. But maybe, as you've suggested, a voice recorder type of module couple play polyphonic "samples" of dial tones.

02-02-2001 12:05 AM

Hoser_back_home
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: bright side of the moon.
Posts: 996

hey, i just thought of something! if anybody has a voice recorder module, try recording the sounds from your telephone earpiece of a telephone number. save that recording as " phone number" then put the mouthpiece of the phone on the speaker and play the recording. we might be able to use the voice recorder software as a makeshift phonebook!

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02-02-2001 01:15 PM

bkbk
Member

Registered: Jun 2000
Location:
Posts: 594

Kopsis / Kessler are true gods of the Palm Economy.

02-02-2001 01:35 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by Gameboy70
I assume DTMF stands for some type of dial tone device.

Dual-Tone Multi-Frequency and yep, exactly.

quote:
I read an explanation somewhere that a tone dialer requires the ability to generate two frequencies simulateously, where the Visor's speaker can only generate one at a time.

This is exactly correct. I believe someone was working on an app that could fake it by approximating a single tone, but they were never successful AFAIK.

quote:
But maybe, as you've suggested, a voice recorder type of module couple play polyphonic "samples" of dial tones.

I would think that this would be feasible, but I haven't had a chance to try it with a tone generator of any kind yet.

quote:
Originally posted by Hoser_in_USA
hey, i just thought of something! if anybody has a voice recorder module, try recording the sounds from your telephone earpiece of a telephone number. save that recording as " phone number" then put the mouthpiece of the phone on the speaker and play the recording. we might be able to use the voice recorder software as a makeshift phonebook!

It won't work. That was the first thing I tried when I got the module and found out there was no DTMF software (other than TRGs extra libs which only work with their hardware). The volume seems to be the biggest problem. Of course, it may also be a frequency response problem. I didn't check the frequency range of the My-Vox to confirm, though.

02-02-2001 02:44 PM

saiful
Member

Registered: Jan 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 7

THE BEAVER-DUDE is right

quote:
well, until somebody develops the ability to run apps right off the CF and a speaker on the visor that can be used to dial phones, not much. The former would be the ultimate TRGPro killer feature. The sound feature isn't so important, in comparison.

WHY CANT THEY MAKE SOFTWARE THAT WILL ALLOW APPS TO RUN STRAIGHT FROM THE GOSHDARN CF!!! HOW HARD IS THAT? I MEAN, SPRINGBOARDS HAVE THEIR OWN SOFTWARE THAT CAN RUN DIRECTLY FROM THE SPRINGBOARD. SOMEONE THROW ME A FREAKIN BONE HERE.

I NEED ANSWERS....

02-02-2001 03:36 PM

Gameboy70
Member

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Metro Station, Hollywood and Highland
Posts: 1018

Re: THE BEAVER-DUDE is right

quote:
Originally posted by saiful
WHY CANT THEY MAKE SOFTWARE THAT WILL ALLOW APPS TO RUN STRAIGHT FROM THE GOSHDARN CF!!! HOW HARD IS THAT? I MEAN, SPRINGBOARDS HAVE THEIR OWN SOFTWARE THAT CAN RUN DIRECTLY FROM THE SPRINGBOARD. SOMEONE THROW ME A FREAKIN BONE HERE.

I NEED ANSWERS

DKessler explains why here.

02-02-2001 05:39 PM

dkessler
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Plant City, FL
Posts: 385

Re: THE BEAVER-DUDE is right

quote:
Originally posted by saiful
WHY CANT THEY MAKE SOFTWARE THAT WILL ALLOW APPS TO RUN STRAIGHT FROM THE GOSHDARN CF!!! HOW HARD IS THAT? I MEAN, SPRINGBOARDS HAVE THEIR OWN SOFTWARE THAT CAN RUN DIRECTLY FROM THE SPRINGBOARD. SOMEONE THROW ME A FREAKIN BONE HERE.

I NEED ANSWERS....

Well, I'll tell you how hard it is ... it means writing patches for between 50 and 100 PalmOS system calls! And doing it without any access to the PalmOS source code. TRG had full access the the PalmOS source code when they did it.

The memory on a Springboard module that holds it's drivers is very different than the memory in a CF card (even though they may both be called "flash"). If you really want to understand why, stop shouting and check out http://kopsisengineering.com/flashadapter_faq.html#q8

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02-02-2001 05:43 PM

saiful
Member

Registered: Jan 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 7

Re: Re: THE BEAVER-DUDE is right

quote:
Originally posted by Gameboy70

DKessler explains why here. [/B]

THANKS, BUT I ALREADY KNEW THAT. THE REAL QUESTION IS HOW DOES THE TRG-PRO DO IT, AND ALSO, SPRINGBOARDS THAT HAVE SOFTWARE MOUNTED. BOTH HAVE THE ABILITY TO RUN APPS FROM THE SPRINGBOARD/CF.

02-02-2001 07:31 PM

saiful
Member

Registered: Jan 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 7

Re: Re: THE BEAVER-DUDE is right

quote:
Originally posted by dkessler
Well, I'll tell you how hard it is ... it means writing patches for between 50 and 100 PalmOS system calls! And doing it without any access to the PalmOS source code. TRG had full access the the PalmOS source code when they did it.

The memory on a Springboard module that holds it's drivers is very different than the memory in a CF card (even though they may both be called "flash"). If you really want to understand why, stop shouting and check out http://kopsisengineering.com/flashadapter_faq.html#q8
[/B]

Sorry about the shouting, but I think the CF Module is a major breakthrough for Handspring.

Question, can we run a shell (similar to MegaLauncher) that will be the bridge to the CF Adapter - in the end, combine the space on the Visor and the CF?

02-02-2001 07:48 PM

dkessler
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Plant City, FL
Posts: 385

Re: Re: Re: THE BEAVER-DUDE is right

quote:
Originally posted by saiful
THANKS, BUT I ALREADY KNEW THAT. THE REAL QUESTION IS HOW DOES THE TRG-PRO DO IT

TRG does just what I described in my previous message. When an application tries to open a database that is stored on the CF card, an operating system extension (also known as a "patch") intercepts the request and uses the CF driver software to copy the data that was requested from the CF card to the unit's internal RAM so that the application can have access to it. This is what their AutoCF program does. Applications on the TRGPro don't run from CF ... AutoCF just makes it look like they do.

This is extremely difficult software to write since it requires very detailed knowledge of how the system calls in the Palm operating system work. TRG has all the source code for the Palm operating system which makes it a lot easier for them ... and they still didn't have the AutoCF capability until long after they released their hardware.

quote:
AND ALSO, SPRINGBOARDS THAT HAVE SOFTWARE MOUNTED. BOTH HAVE THE ABILITY TO RUN APPS FROM THE SPRINGBOARD/CF.

Springboards that allow you to run the software from the Springboard module itself do not have anything in them that even vaguely resembles CompactFlash. If the CPU in the Visor could see the memory in a CompactFlash card, it could run programs off it just like it can run programs off a Handspring 8MB flash module. But the Visor's CPU can't see the memory in a CompactFlash card. To the Visor's CPU the CF card looks like it contains zero memory. I don't know how to explain this any better. As far as the CPU in the Visor is concerned, a CF card contains no memory!

The Visor can't run apps off the CF card because it can't see them without going through special driver software. And since the Palm OS doesn't know anything about that driver software, the OS has to be modified using OS extensions to give it that capability. Kopsis, Inc. is trying to develop software that will do just that, but it's very difficult software to write and even if everything goes well, it's going to take a while. I hope that answers your question ... if not, perhaps someone less technical than myself will have to take a shot at it.

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02-02-2001 08:14 PM

EricG
Member

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Alive and well on VisorCentral.com
Posts: 861

All things considered and difficulties aside, I think the ideal thing would be to have a CF adaptor with flash ram (i.e. 8 MB), the CFAutoloader could copy the data from the CF card to the flash ram instead of the visor's main ram.. this would better simulate the way people would expect the automover to work and solve some of the complaints. In essence the cards flash ram would be scratch area for the automover to shuffle things in/from the CF card to visor ram (if need be). Obviously, some things won't work properly in flash ram, but that's another hurdle. (just my 2 cents)

02-03-2001 12:02 AM

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