Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick
How long was the unibomber out there?
Theodore Kaczynski was out there for 17 years, but he was probably "out there" for much longer.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

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Originally posted by agraham999
First of all Dick...I don't like the suggestion that my remarks infer that I am a coward. Don't appreciate that at all.

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Well, personally, I don't appreciate the fact that your remarks infer that you're the only person considering the potential possibilities here. Personally, I've realized for a long time that things were not only possible, but that they were a realistic eventuality. Ultimately, though, one cannot live one's life worrying about what might come next. There is nothing that can be done to stop a highly motivated individual or group of individuals from inflicting some act of violence upon others before it happens.

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Secondly...perhaps my use of the word paranoid was a little strong...but my point is that there is nothing wrong with a little extra caution in this time...and going on with our lives with blind indignance is not necessarily a good thing.

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Are you sure that indignance is the word you're looking for?

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Now for my comment about them possibly shutting down the postal system temporarily if these continue. I bet none of you ever thought that the entire airline industry would be grounded.

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You'd lose that bet. The airlines have been operating in or on the borders of bankruptcy for a long time (ever since the fare wars tried to make airline travel available to the 'common man'). They've been asking for trouble for a while.

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Let me tell you this...if these letters continue to pop up or some other contagion being used via the postal system...they WILL stop mail delivery until law enforcement can evaluate the situation.

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There goes the economy. We've already given the terrorists what they wanted with the airline system. Why not give them what they want with the mail system. Friggin' sheep (not necessarily you personally).

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I mean let's think about this...right now you can send a dangerous biological weapon through the US mail system and infect or kill people all for the price of a $.32 stamp.

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You haven't mailed anything in a while, have you? They put a $.32 stamp on there, it'll get returned to them.

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For $1000 you could mail 3,000 pieces of mail...which could contain smallpox. They've done computer modeling and let me tell you if smallpox hits an area...the chances of stopping it would practically impossible...meaning within days 30% of the population could be infected. You think they would keep the mail working then?

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Why stop it at that point (other than the fact that lots of mail carriers would probably have it too)?

Last edited by Toby on 10-15-2001 at 03:35 PM

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:

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Originally posted by agraham999
[...] Sure call me anytime...read away. I consider bullying those who choose to disagree with another individual by lowering the discussion to insults and innuendo. Honesty...your attribute? Big difference between honesty and arrogance...and you have that in spades.

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location:
Posts: 134

I don't really care anymore. I thought this would be an interesting debate...maybe a good conversation...but I really don't appreciate being called a coward.

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:

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Originally posted by agraham999
I don't really care anymore. I thought this would be an interesting debate...maybe a good conversation...but I really don't appreciate being called a coward.

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Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 604

Yorrick wrote:

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wait a freaking second here. You noted that if an Afghani were in the wrong place at the wrong time because our country is bombing the hell out of his country, it's his own lookout. The people in the World trade center were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm not comparing anyone's actions here. Anyone can be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Redwood City CA
Posts: 472

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick
With apparent indiscriminate bombing the U.S. is behaving poorly.
[/B]

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Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Connecticut USA
Posts: 2682

do we need a time-out here?

Ok, everyone, let's dial it down a notch or two. We don't need to bash each other around in here. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and doesn't need to be ridiculed for it.

If we can't play nice, the toys will be put away and the sandbox is gonna get closed...

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God bless America, my home sweet home...

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: "Children are a gift from God, they are a reward"
Posts: 1049

I thought that this was a good editorial (coming out of SF of all places), sorta relevant to the conversation.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...16/MN100051.DTL

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Out of my skull, back in five minutes
Posts: 1435

thanks, BobbyMike.

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Registered: Sep 1999
Location: at work...
Posts: 736

quote:

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Originally posted by homer
Yes! It seems to me that perhaps the first step in attempting to stop the fundamentalist
muslim terrorists would be to STOP PISSING THEM OFF!
Granted, it may be unrealistic to do so, but I've hear very little dialog in regards to that in
the media.

Originally posted by foo fighter
Yes that is unrealistic. The only recourse now is to KILL those responsible, on both a personal and national level, lest we encourage more "copycat" attacks.

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Last edited by Rob on 10-17-2001 at 07:16 AM

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: "Children are a gift from God, they are a reward"
Posts: 1049

It seems that the problem that we have with these countries isn't necessarily what we do or don't do, it seems that they're angry because we exist (we seem to piss them off because we are rich and because the majority of us they perceive as Godless and/or hypocritical). Short of nuking Israel, I can't see what we could do to get on their good side. You have to remember that these are countries that don't tolerate other religions very well. Most of these countries persecute anyone evangelizing any other religion, and/or differing sects in the Islamic fold.

The Islamic problem is not something we can fix. It is a problem endemic with the way they perceive modernism and their relationship to it. You have several countries where the majority of the people are extremely poor and the wealth is controlled by a few families. Their societies are rigidly controlled and there isn't much hope for the common man to raise himself up. Couple that with rising amounts of young men who get free educations and you have a problem. These kids aren't going home after school and the cities can't support them, not enough jobs. In that situation, where the world doesn't offer anything of value they're told if they give their lives to the Cause they'll go to Heaven, what do we expect?

I'm sure some of you are old enough to remember the idealogical terrorists of the 70's. I can remember going through the Rome airport in 1979 and seeing large amounts of armed soldiers (w/ locked and loaded weapons) on the alert. The Europeans finally dissolved that threat by ruthlessly hunting down and killing anybody in those factions. It stopped being enticing and romantic to be a terrorist.I can't say that the same thing will work this time because now we have religion added to the mix, but it reminds us that terrorists are exetremists and what makes someone a terrorist is usually a mixture of things not easily controlled.

Of course I don't have a solution, and as a Christian I can't condone violence. I'm just sure that until we as a country come together and we don't elect to react with knee jerk responses we will be right where the terrorists want us. We can't solve the terrorists by becoming less free here.

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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It seems that the problem that we have with these countries isn't necessarily what we do or don't do, it seems that they're angry because we exist (we seem to piss them off because we are rich and because the majority of us they perceive as Godless and/or hypocritical).

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Cincinnati, OH USA
Posts: 107

A Bit of History

Friends,

Here is an interesting piece by Chris Matthews of MSNBC about the history of the region as it relates to the nations there today. May help enlighten this discussion.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/595296.asp

Otherwise, regarding fear:

"JOHN 14:1 Jesus said, `Do not let anything trouble your heart. You believe in God and you must believe in me also.
...
"JOHN 14:27 'Peace is what I leave for you. I give you my own peace. People of the world also say, "Peace" to you. I do not say it as they say it. Do not let anything trouble your hearts. Do not fear.'
....
"JOHN 16:33 'I have told you these things so that you may have peace. I give you peace. The world will trouble you much. But be glad. I have power over the world.'

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MANY BLESSINGS!
Peace and Every Good!


Michael W. Cristiani
[email protected]

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

With all due respect, I don't see what bible verses have to do with this debate.

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Registered: Dec 1999
Location: "Children are a gift from God, they are a reward"
Posts: 1049

"To a point. They are also pissed at us for very specific reasons as well, ie: we are currently occupying their holy land, we tend to support minority leaders, we're looking out for our oil interests first and foremost, etc... "

Actually we're not 'occupying' their Holy land, we've been invited by the rulers of their country. We were asked to be there. The Nazi's occupyied Poland. Big difference. Their beef is that 'infidels' are in the Holy land. As to the rest, lots of countries are pissed at us for supporting interests in their respective area and they have found other ways to deal with it.

"Whoa whoa whoa...this isn't an 'islamic' problem...it's a problem with a small fundamentalist sect of that particular religion."

No, it's endemic to their entire culture. All the Arab countries have had enormous problems adjusting to change. The vast disparity of incomes and lifestyles in these countries shows this. They have problems reconciling modernity into their lifestyles. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, etc. all have been, and will continue for some time to have problems. I'm not saying that they are backward, I'm saying that they have problems assimilating change into their culture.

"With all due respect, I don't see what bible verses have to do with this debate."

With all due respect my friend, it has
everything to do with this discussion. We won't get through this mess without the majority of people wanting peace. Don't dismiss the sentiment because you might have a problem with the source. We all need to lighten up and be more open minded.

edited right after I posted to remove dyslexic grammar

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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Actually we're not 'occupying' their Holy land, we've been invited by the rulers of their country. We were asked to be there.

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We were asked to be there by their ruling government...which we support. The ruling government is not necessarily the people's government.

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As to the rest, lots of countries are pissed at us for supporting interests in their respective area and they have found other ways to deal with it.

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I'm not saying what they are doing is right. They certainly SHOULD find other ways to deal with it. WE should explore ways to accomodate their needs as WE explore other ways to deal with it.

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No, it's endemic to their entire culture. All the Arab countries have had enormous problems adjusting to change.

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Yea. So what?

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I'm not saying that they are backward, I'm saying that they have problems assimilating change into their culture.

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Why should they be forced to change?

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With all due respect my friend, it has
everything to do with this discussion. We won't get through this mess without the majority of people wanting peace. Don't dismiss the sentiment because you might have a problem with the source. We all need to lighten up and be more open minded.

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Ok, it was a nice sentiment from Jesus...fair enough. That does not mean it has everything to do with this discussion, though.

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Registered: Dec 1999
Location: "Children are a gift from God, they are a reward"
Posts: 1049

"We were asked to be there by their ruling government...which we support. The ruling government is not necessarily the people's government."

Make up your mind. Either we can, or can, (or should, or should not) influence other countries and how they are run. Your sentiment seems to be that we should help to overthrow those governments that we deem are not fully supported by their people (and who is 'we' anyway?).

As to whether or not they should change. That's up to them. No one says that they have to accept things like the telephone, internet, or credit cards into their society. It's probably impossible not to change though. One must learn to deal with new technologies and changes in the world outside. To ignore or attempt to deny that the world is in constant flux is stupid and not realistic. They are difficulties keeping up with the world outside because the people in charge (religious and political) don't really want the common citizen to have full access to the outside world. That's a short sighted view in my own opinion, but they want to maintain control.

And as to accomodating their needs, why should we? We live in America. Not the United Nations. We have to keep our interests first. That's what countries do. If we can do so without harming others great, but everybody will not always be happy. Someone will always be angry because we supported a side of an issue that they didn't. To keep them(Islamics in M.E.) happy should we allow the Arab states to destroy Israel? Should we stop buying oil so we can starve those in charge of the governments out? Should we raise our boycott on Iraq because they're fearless ruler is starving his own people? We as a country can't even prevent one of our own states (Nevada) from denying the IRS access to bank records.

Gotta go finis later....

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
[...] As to whether or not they should change. That's up to them. No one says that they have to accept things like the telephone, internet, or credit cards into their society. It's probably impossible not to change though. One must learn to deal with new technologies and changes in the world outside. To ignore or attempt to deny that the world is in constant flux is stupid and not realistic. [...]

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OTOH, one could always adopt the ways of the Amish.

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: "Children are a gift from God, they are a reward"
Posts: 1049

"OTOH, one could always adopt the ways of the Amish."

Uh, I sell cars for a living now... that might decrease my income somewhat. I don't think they allow pda's either. or the occasional beer.

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."