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bkbk
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Registered: Jun 2000
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Re: Be wary, but be fair

quote:
Originally posted by dvIceT
I realize we need to be vigilant but let's not repeat the mistake of unfairly hazing new members simply because we *suspect* they may be PR plants. .... So let's please cut the guy some slack for now.

Yes, but at the same time, let's be sure that we all feel free enough to call a spade a spade when we feel we see one. (I've never liked that homily, and tried to think of another one that fit, but could not.)

Both sides of this point should be well taken, I guess, for the moment.

FWIW, as I've noted elsewhere, I think for most people (i.e., non-power-users), the more plug-&-play your solution, the more people will gravitate toward it. (I know Kopsis is due to come out w/something more plug-&-play any moment now, as well.)

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05-21-2001 11:19 PM

dvIceT
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Registered: Dec 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by bkbk
I've never liked that homily, and tried to think of another one that fit, but could not.

Yeah, I think we should stand clear of that one and the connotations it carries.

We should just call'em like we see'em. (within reason)

05-22-2001 09:30 PM

dvIceT
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Registered: Dec 2000
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Posts: 152

accidental double post, stupid IE

05-22-2001 09:30 PM

gentzel
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Registered: Dec 2000
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Posts: 25

spade == shovel

quote:
Originally posted by bkbk

Yes, but at the same time, let's be sure that we all feel free enough to call a spade a spade when we feel we see one. (I've never liked that homily, and tried to think of another one that fit, but could not.)

Why not? It's a perfectly good and useful expression.
Any "negative" connotations are purely revisionist and silly.

See http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxtocall.html .

05-22-2001 09:43 PM

dvIceT
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Registered: Dec 2000
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Re: spade == shovel

quote:
Originally posted by gentzel

Why not? It's a perfectly good and useful expression.
Any "negative" connotations are purely revisionist and silly.

See http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxtocall.html .

I actually looked up the same URL. Still, I think that whatever "revisionist and silly" things have come to pass, it still carries that taint for many people. If people use it in a clearly non-racial context, that's fine. The problem is when it's used by "clever" people as a surreptitious slurring of someone. In any case, I'm heartened to see at least some ambivalence about its use.

05-22-2001 11:39 PM

bkbk
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Registered: Jun 2000
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Yeah, I read the full text of the page in the URL ref., and while the 1st 1/2 is what I'd hoped, the 2nd 1/2 is what I feared. Even if something is tech. "PC," you gotta respect the "well-founded" fears of those who can potentially misunderstand the use of the phrase.
"Call 'em as I see 'em" would've been the one I'd've preferred, if I'd thought of it at the time.

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"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds." -- Albert Einstein

05-24-2001 01:26 AM

gentzel
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Calling a pointy-thing a pointy-thing

quote:
Originally posted by bkbk
Even if something is tech. "PC," you gotta respect the "well-founded" fears of those who can potentially misunderstand the use of the phrase.

By doing that, you are somewhat taking the "easy" way out and letting the narrow-minded side win. I prefer to try to educate those who may be offended. If they are still upset, then they are too close-minded to try to satisfy.

Sure, some things eventually acquire so much negative meaning that the original is lost, even if the origin is innocent. And those must be treated with care and sensitivity. But this hardly qualifies for that extreme level.

Are we going to start hearing of pressure on the playing card companies next? "I bid 7 pointy-things."

05-24-2001 04:34 PM

dvIceT
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Registered: Dec 2000
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Posts: 152

Re: Calling a pointy-thing a pointy-thing

We are definitely OT, but ...
Point taken, but if it "Walks like a duck" and we can "Call'em as we see'em" and "Tell it like it is," we can definitely keep the expression in our lingual toolkit. It's just a question of whether and when to use it.

quote:
Originally posted by gentzel
By doing that, you are somewhat taking the "easy" way out and letting the narrow-minded side win. I prefer to try to educate those who may be offended. If they are still upset, then they are too close-minded to try to satisfy.

I'm going to give the above quote the most generous interpretation possible, because statements like it generally are valuable only if the utterer sees the potential for both education and self-education.

Last edited by dvIceT on 05-24-2001 at 09:22 PM

05-24-2001 09:17 PM

gentzel
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Registered: Dec 2000
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Posts: 25

Re: Calling a pointy-thing a pointy-thing

quote:
Originally posted by dvIceT
Point taken, but if it "Walks like a duck" and we can "Call'em as we see'em" and "Tell it like it is," we can definitely keep the expression in our lingual toolkit. It's just a question of whether and when to use it.

I'm somewhat (perhaps overly) sensitive to PC linguistic issues. I work as an editor and proofreader with publishers who reprint old, pulp-era (1920's & 1930's) fiction. There is always pressure to "update" the works to satisfy modern sensibilities. This is, to me, little different than those who painted fig leaves on classic art.

So please take my somewhat inflexible stand on this issue from that context. I realize that casual conversation is different from literature, but it's a sore spot for me. And I guess we should get back on topic now anyway...

05-25-2001 03:44 PM

dvIceT
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Registered: Dec 2000
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Posts: 152

Re: Re: Calling a pointy-thing a pointy-thing

quote:
Originally posted by gentzel

I'm somewhat (perhaps overly) sensitive to PC linguistic issues. I work as an editor and proofreader with publishers who reprint old, pulp-era (1920's & 1930's) fiction. There is always pressure to "update" the works to satisfy modern sensibilities. This is, to me, little different than those who painted fig leaves on classic art.

So please take my somewhat inflexible stand on this issue from that context. I realize that casual conversation is different from literature, but it's a sore spot for me. And I guess we should get back on topic now anyway...

OK, now I see exactly where you're coming from. My apologies. I appreciate your principled stand in maintaining artistic integrity.

... And now back to our previously scheduled topic . . .

05-25-2001 09:08 PM

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