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Discussion > Other Areas of Interest > All Handhelds > Did Palm learn anything from Sony's S500c mistake?

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By: Slot_Machine @ 04:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Fat_Man
surely Palm could have done just a little more.

Joe CEO doesn't want anything more.

Let's join Joe's thought process, already in progress:

quote:
Joe CEO:
"Looks good, feels good, kind of "colorish", and the case matches my paltinum Rolex.... "

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"That IS a Palm III form-factor in my pocket, AND I'm happy to see you...."

By: gbgood @ 04:26 PM

I recently purchased the Prism after looking at the m505 in the store. You may have read my earlier post where I said that when the salesperson at Staples pulled the m505 out of the box for me to look at, he turned it on, and asked me if I knew where the contrast button was.....Well, you know and I know, there IS no contrast button.
I am an original Vdx user from way back, you know, during the 6 week wait time. I loved my Vdx. But I really wanted to go color. I thought I was unbiased. I thought I was open-minded.

But, geez, when the FIRST thought of the salesperson is-'Where is the contrast button?"....

I went Prism. Yeah, the price will probably come down now. Staples graciously did an exchange for my ****ty IIIc(can't read graffiti...see I CAN be a switch hitter)
and they did a price match $405.

The color screen is great, graffiti is great, SplashPhoto is my new favorite app. I already had a backup mod, modem, keyboard, now memplug on order, 64mb SM on order,

I wanted the m505 form, but I don't think it's time yet.
Maybe next year.....I can wait, my Prism is easily filling the giant shoes left by Vdx.

CONS:
1.outdoor sucks, I don't remember Vdx being impossible to read. But, I figure I can get a case with a flip cover maybe to fix this.
2.battery life is scary, I just never thought about it with Vdx. I will HAVE to invest in the ac adapter & car charger I found at talestuff.com just so I can travel in peace & w/o laptop.

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By: mikedemo @ 04:43 PM

Here's part of a review from the Gadgeteer.com I read about the Palm M505.

Right about now, I can hear everyone saying "ok, ok, enough about the boring buttons, and dimensions, tell me about the color screen!".... Well, ok then! The m505 color display is VERY similar to the color display that the iPAQ uses. It is also a reflective display which makes it very easy to read outdoors in the full sunlight. Unfortunately, it also makes it hard to read in normal indoor conditions. First of all, let me say that I own both the Visor Prism and the Palm IIIc. Both of these units have color displays that are non-reflective. These units are very bright and easy to see in any lighting conditions EXCEPT outdoors in the sun. I also have an iPAQ and it took me awhile to get used to its display because it is dimmer than the Active Matrix TFT displays like the IIIc, and Prism have. Now that I am used to it, I'm glad for the ability to sit out in my car on sunny days reading ebooks. Indoors, I can turn on the backlight and have several brightness settings to choose from which makes viewing very comfortable. I sometimes still wish for the bright IIIc / Prism screen though. The colors are so much more vibrant than those on the iPAQ even at its brightest setting. Ok, so why am I talking so much about the iPAQ? Mainly because of the fact that the m505 display with no backlight turned on is pretty much like the iPAQ display with no backlight turned on. With this setting it works great outdoors in sunlight. But inside even under office florescent lighting, I found myself tipping the PDA at different angles in order to catch the light for better viewing.

By holding down the power button, you can turn the backlight on. With the backlight on, the screen is still pretty dim. I would compare the brightness to an iPAQ on the lowest bright setting. I typically use my iPAQ on the highest brightness setting. The m505 only has one bright setting, on and off. When it is on, the screen looks somewhat washed out. The colors aren't very vibrant at all. They have more of a milky cast to them. The display isn't horrible by any means, but it is disappointing. Actually in certain lighting conditions I would say that the m505 with the backlight off is much harder to read than the m500 mono screen.

If you are basing your PDA purchase on the quality of the color display, I personally would not choose the m505. It just isn't bright enough to suit me.

You can read the complete review at http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/m505-review.html

-Sulu I said On screen!!! Uh, it is sir.-

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-Mikedemo
It's all about how you spend the money.

By: mikedemo @ 04:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Slot_Machine

Joe CEO doesn't want anything more.

Let's join Joe's thought process, already in progress:

Joe CEO probably doesn't even know how to use it.

I work in a F500 company and let me tell you that its a laugher for me in these meetings seeing these guys trying to beam business cards. Most never even knew they could beam. Ofcourse I don't laugh out loud .

__________________
-Mikedemo
It's all about how you spend the money.

By: Slot_Machine @ 05:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mikedemo

Most never even knew they could beam.

Yup. Much less work with digital photos, etc. That type of user is the lowest common denominator. But Palm loves 'em....

__________________
"That IS a Palm III form-factor in my pocket, AND I'm happy to see you...."

By: Fat_Man @ 06:00 PM

As much as I'm disappointed in Palm's current products, I do support the Palm OS in general. This is raised another issue of concern, Clearly Palm now is not the Palm a year or two ago. I'm sure people remember how Palm stood up to Microsoft when they (MS) were poised to invade the handheld arena with the Pocket PC. Palm not only withstand the MIcrosoft giant, they kick their a$$!! That was Palm in the height of it's glory.

Now with reports that Palm is losing its marketshares, inventory problems, consumme dis-satisfation with the m505 etc... AND news of the Pocket PC 5.0 (I think) looming in the horizon, can Palm withstand another Microsoft assult?

Remember; HandEra, Handspring, and Sony(at least the Clie) all are intimately tied to the Palm OS, so if Palm goes, so will they.

Wonder why Jeff Hawkins hinted that Handspring may not use the Palm OS exclusively, and that another OS may be in the future. Now recently Handspring has partnered with MS....

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Fat's

By: mikedemo @ 06:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Fat_Man
. . . Wonder why Jeff Hawkins hinted that Handspring may not use the Palm OS exclusively, and that another OS may be in the future.

That may be a good thing. Palm is moving way too slow. Jeff want to push the envelope and still have it expandable and affordable. I say cool deal, do whatcha gotta do.

-its all good-

__________________
-Mikedemo
It's all about how you spend the money.

By: Toby @ 06:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Fat_Man
Remember; HandEra, Handspring, and Sony(at least the Clie) all are intimately tied to the Palm OS, so if Palm goes, so will they.

What makes you think that they wouldn't just start a development project of their own? HandEra has some pretty good programmers from what I've observed of their TRG products. Handspring has the guy who came up with the original thing. Maybe PalmOS would suddenly become open source after somebody buys up Palm's assets on the auction block (that's assuming the worst-case would happen).

quote:
Wonder why Jeff Hawkins hinted that Handspring may not use the Palm OS exclusively, and that another OS may be in the future. Now recently Handspring has partnered with MS....

MS_N_. Not quite the same thing. This is like saying that if somebody appears on a show on MSNBC that they're suddenly in bed with Bill Gates.

But...
By: bblue @ 10:01 PM

BTW, the US models to do have brighter screens than the Hungarian ones.

Personally, I think some of you don't understand the Palm philosophy: keep it simple, stupid. You're thinking that simply because Microsft is cramming as many features as it can into a PocketPC, Palm is now going too slow with innovation. The main reason Palm is losing market share is because of this: Palm now refers to the entire Palm-OS community, and it is no accident.

Well, if you look back at things, Palm never really invented anything! It just improved upon what existed. The first REAL palm-like PDA was the Newton, which Palm basically copied, and improved upon! Same goes with the 5 series, they simply took their old Palm, and made it better. Now, Palm is letting its licensees do the same. Since you all seem to be adept at whining about Palm's lack of innovation, you seem to be forgetting, that THAT is not the route Palm is taking: the sole innovater for the Palm OS platform. You continuously accuse Palm of "copying" ideas from Handspring/Sony. Perhaps you need to do some research on Palm's idea of licensing out its OS. It's no mistake. Palm continues to innovate (whether you admit it or not) , but simply because other companies innovate on the platform too (unlike PPC as of now) you seem to think this is spelling out Palm's doom.

While Palm WILL continue to lose market share, I think they have also planned this. If Palm always innovated ahead of every other company, there would be no Handspring, Clie, or HandEra, certainly not as we know them now. You see, now we have a CHOICE on the Palm OS platform.

Also, if Palm would end up going, I'm sure the software OS division would always remain, but I doubt its hardware division would be going anywhere soon. In my opinion, the M505 is perfect for those of us who use it for organization / note taking, who will want to be able to snap on some chic devices (when they arrive this fall... if ever..) with something that looks superb, has good color (US version), nice battery life, and fits unobtrusively in your pocket. Not those who want to impress their friends with how many features you can cram into a bulkier PDA that costs as much as a mini-laptop! (Although, while I hate Sony, they're giving us the best of both worlds!)

I think Handspring has too much sense to go with the PPC platform. Down the road, more options will be availible (I wanna see a NewtonX module!) for an OS, and that's what I think Handspring is referring too. But will the Palm OS vanish? Not anytime soon, and certainly not as a result of Microsoft! PocketPC's will always maintain a portion of the market if you must compare them, but despite people's whining over the PalmOS platform, it's got far more potential now than PPC does, since companies like Kyocera and Sony are proving that it can be taken to new limits, without being excessive (or ugly!)

But

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By: Fat_Man @ 10:07 PM

quote:
What makes you think that they wouldn't just start a development project of their own? HandEra has some pretty good programmers from what I've observed of their TRG products. Handspring has the guy who came up with the original thing.

Nothing. I agree with you completely. I'm only saying that HandEra and Handspring both rely on the Palm OS at the moment. It is completely possible that HandEra and Handspring can come up with their own OS, but in the present whatever that affects Palm will ultimately trickle down to the licensees. So if Palm drops the ball, the whole team losses.

I hate to be the forcaster of doom and gloom. I'm only saying what might can happen. IMHO, Palm needs to wake-up and shape-up. At its present condition, I don't think Palm can take on Microsoft again. If the Pocket PC 5.0 prove to be even somewhat competitive, easier to use, and better software support, Palm's market share could be in trouble. If software developers start see Palm on the decline, they may switch their future investment and developement to the Pocket PC.

STOP!!! I am not supporting the Pocket PC, don't flame me!!!

My full support is with the Palm OS, I just think that Palm needs a wake-up call before it's too late.

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Fat's

By: Fat_Man @ 11:01 PM

quote:
Personally, I think some of you don't understand the Palm philosophy: keep it simple, stupid.

I don't think that you understand, "Keep it simple, stupid." is not philosophy, it's a catch phrase!

Palm has evolved way beyond keeping things simple. SD cards, MMC cards, glowhacks, reflective screens, rechargable lithium polymer battery, audible, flashing, and/or vibrating alarms... Maybe the right phrase is "keep it earier to user than a Pocket PC."

quote:
Well, if you look back at things, Palm never really invented anything! It just improved upon what existed. The first REAL palm-like PDA was the Newton, which Palm basically copied, and improved upon! Same goes with the 5 series, they simply took their old Palm, and made it better. Now, Palm is letting its licensees do the same. Since you all seem to be adept at whining about Palm's lack of innovation, you seem to be forgetting, that THAT is not the route Palm is taking:

There is no way that a technological hardware company can survive if it takes the route "improving" other's innovations. One of the biggest reason is the consumer base. Think about who really buys these handhelds. Not the average Joe, if they needed something to organize their schedule, they can go and get a DayPlanner for $10. People who buys these PDA's falls into two catagories. First, people are people who are electronically savvy (gadget-lovers), who keeps up with technology. The second group are those who just the the latest and greatest out there (I think Slot_Machine called them "Joe CEO's").

Now if Palm takes the path of basically improving existing innovations, their products will always be 6-8 months behind on features. Now will "Joe CEO" want to buy that? No! Joe would want to latest and greatest! So Palm will lose sales from at customer base. Now will electronically savvy people want a product that's 6-months behind?

quote:
Gadget lover
Hmm...the m505 has 16-bit color and 160x160 resolution, I've seen that in the Prism already. Hmm..the Clie has 320x320 resolution, jog dial, multimedia, and an MP3 player? Well, I have not seen that in a palm machine before!!

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m505 spasms
By: Slot_Machine @ 12:56 AM

Well I finally had a hands on with the m505. Have you all ever taken a full-color page from the newspaper and left it in the sun for a few days? Well that's how I would describe the display. You could tell there were a lot of colors, but they were yellowed and dull-looking. I was constantly tilting the screen and my head to try to get the right viewing angle. Probably looked like I had Terets syndrome....

Even Joe CEO should think twice....

__________________
"That IS a Palm III form-factor in my pocket, AND I'm happy to see you...."

By: yaz320 @ 03:12 AM

I'm sorry to say this guys but I am buying an iPaq, because of the lack of innovation. I like the Palm OS for the programs, but its not good enough.

I'm computer savvy so getting around PPC won't be a problem, but it is kinda cool to have 206 mhz in your pocket.

Activesync is great, and how can you beat 32mb built in? The Sony Clie NEEDS a memory stick for mm, but the iPaq doesn't.

I'm not saying one is better hten the other, I am just saying I like it better more and it floats my boat better then the CLIE.

If handera had color mmmm i could use htat.

I don't care if you don't like an iPaq, its whatever YOU like you shoulda buy.

IF I don't like my iPaq when I get it, I can always "ebay" it and get a Palm. But after using my friends iPaq...that things was like butter...mmm....

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By: mikedemo @ 03:54 AM

I too am disappointed in Palm too, but not that disappointed. To get a PPC yet.

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-Mikedemo
It's all about how you spend the money.

By: dalamar70 @ 04:55 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Fat_Man

There is no way that a technological hardware company can survive if it takes the route "improving" other's innovations.

I still don't know what exactly counts as an "innovation"... Is the iPaq "innovative" because it has an MP3 player? I've had one on my PC for a couple of years already. A 200MHz processor, which existed five years ago? Is HE innovative for their landscape mode, which Radius monitors used to do like 10 years ago?

quote:
Originally posted by Fat_Man

Now if Palm takes the path of basically improving existing innovations, their products will always be 6-8 months behind on features.

But as I said before, you won't get stuck with new features that don't pan out. What if the HE330 is a flop and nobody uses or programs for a 240x160 Palm screen anymore? Fat lot of good that "innovation" does you. Innovation can be a dangerous thing. Agenda is really brave in making an "innovative" Linux PDA, but come on. How many of you are secretly laughing at them?

And, Palm's products have ALL (well, they were supposed to) of those "old" features. The m505 is supposed to have all the best things from the Vpl (fast CPU), Prism (16-bit color), Vx (form), Sony (small memory expansion), and some extra software thrown in. You could've bought any one of those 6-8 months ago, but it wouldn't have ALL of those innovations.

I'm not defending the m505 itself, but I'm saying that innovation for the sake of innovation is overrated in the marketplace. Look at the new iBook. There is NOTHING special about it that can't be found somewhere else, but the package as a whole will probably sell like hotcakes (where the heck does that analogy come from anyway).
Most PCs are basically just parts from different manufacturers slapped together, but companies like Dell were still making pretty good money (for a while).

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