Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Posts: 1571

The Terrorists win either way

Even if the masterminds of Tuesday's terrorist attacks get bomb to bits...they win. Think of all the "firsts" that took place and how bad thigns got:

All FLights cancelled - Both in the U.S and in Canada
President had to be kept aloft in Air Force one throughout the crisis
Baseball games cancelled
NFL games cancelled
Stock Markets close for almost a week
Entire U.S capital is evacuated (on Tuesday)

The list goes on and on and on.

I would have expected somethign like this to happen during a war with a major military power..not from a bunch of fanatics that hijacked and crashed four planes.

The U.S will NEVER be the same after this incidence.

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

I agree.

I think it is important for America to realize that we can't *win* this war...we can only try to stop it. And radical group that is willing to take their own lives in the name of their cause is a very dangerous and volatile group that has little to no logical rational behind their actions.

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Registered: May 2001
Location: NY metro area
Posts: 219

There already is enough misinformation going around that we should all try to get our facts straight before spreading more.

quote:

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President had to be kept aloft in Air Force one throughout the crisis

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Jonathan

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: "Children are a gift from God, they are a reward"
Posts: 1049

"The U.S will NEVER be the same after this incidence."

We are not defined by what happens to us, but by how we react to what happens to us.

The U.S. was never the same after skateboards either.

As to "winning the war", we're not in a war unless we have another country to be at war with and Congress issues a declaration of war. If this group wants to act in a hostile manner, I guess we could capitulate to whatever demands they wanted (if they ever declare them), but I don't think that's likely. Without destroying totally this group, I can't see how we could possibly "stop" this. I don't think talking softly is going to quiet this beast. I'm afraid that there will be more widows and orphans before we see any kind of closure.

As a formerly active Marine I admit to a desire for a military strike at an appropriate target (when the perps are found), but that strikes directly against my beliefs as a committed Christian.

Michael

PS from WIRED today 9/14/01

EPHEMERA...

One-Track Minds
Here's the dilemma: A runaway train will kill five people unless you flip a switch, sending it onto another track where it will kill only one. Most people say flipping the switch is moral. But what about pushing a passer-by onto the track to stop the train? Most people say that's not moral. That difference in response has long puzzled philosophers. Now research published in the journal Science shows that the key to tough moral judgments is emotion, not analytical reasoning. Princeton University researchers scanned volunteers' brains as they pondered ethical questions -- producing images where emotion-related areas of the brain literally lit up. According to psychologist Jonathan Haidt, "we carry out our lives as though our moral judgments are based on reason," but the study, he said, illustrates that people act on "gut feelings and make up reasons post hoc."

Let's pray that those with the big sticks have good gut feelings....

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
One-Track Minds
Here's the dilemma: A runaway train will kill five people unless you flip a switch, sending it onto another track where it will kill only one. Most people say flipping the switch is moral. But what about pushing a passer-by onto the track to stop the train? Most people say that's not moral. That difference in response has long puzzled philosophers. Now research published in the journal Science shows that the key to tough moral judgments is emotion, not analytical reasoning. Princeton University researchers scanned volunteers' brains as they pondered ethical questions -- producing images where emotion-related areas of the brain literally lit up. According to psychologist Jonathan Haidt, "we carry out our lives as though our moral judgments are based on reason," but the study, he said, illustrates that people act on "gut feelings and make up reasons post hoc."

Let's pray that those with the big sticks have good gut feelings....

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Well, if one puts any stock in Type theories, then 'thinkers' make up a really small portion of the population anyway (the Jungian/MBTI 'rationals' are less than 10% of the population), so their study really didn't necessarily prove anything. That's not even considering the fact that it only studied volunteers. No self-respecting Rational would give himself over as a guinea-pig.

Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Pembroke,MA
Posts: 307

Another thing to think of is that I'm sure the terrorists didn't plan on the good that's come out of this tragedy. In my 38 years on this planet, and in the US, have never seen the country so patriotic and centric as it is now. Last night on CNN one commentator made a off the cuff comment saying that it's really weird that the person you would have been cutting off in your car on Monday, you're hugging today.

I vividly remember the space shuttle tragedy, and that's the closest I've seen to this type of outpouring I'm witnessing now. Jeepers, the store can't even keep flags in stock. In my town, just driving through today, the houses that didn't have decorated trees, flags, or painted sheets as banners, were the vast minority. It actually brought a tear to my eye seeing one banner saying the simple words "...gave proof through the night that our flag was still there". Makes me damn proud to be here.

Terrorists winning? I don't think so by a long shot. The inconveniences we will have to endure are far outweighted by the solidarity, fortitude, and compassion that's sprouted in the past 4 days... and keeps on growing.

God Bless America! We are united once more!

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Enumclaw, Wa
Posts: 268

Terrorists will never win no matter what the outcome of this tradegy turns out to be. If justice is not prevailed on earth it will be with god.

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God bless the USA! The country I love, and will support at all costs.

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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Terrorists will never win no matter what the outcome of this tradegy turns out to be. If justice is not prevailed on earth it will be with god.

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We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
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Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Enumclaw, Wa
Posts: 268

That may be what they believe while on earth, but I KNOW they are wrong. So even though they died believing they were serving god, thats not the case and the lord will bring them to justice.

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God bless the USA! The country I love, and will support at all costs.

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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That may be what they believe while on earth, but I KNOW they are wrong. So even though they died believing they were serving god, thats not the case and the lord will bring them to justice.

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Give me a break.

This kind of extreme 'god is on our site and hates your side and I am always right because my god said I was' trite is what causes these types of stupid wars.

Just watch...you'll get pissed at me for saying that and say something back at me. I'll get all 'holier than though' on you and defend my stance and next thing you know, we'll both be at war with each other. (I'm a pacifist, though, so I'll let you win.)

Besides, MY god can beat up YOUR god. So there.

But hey, if you KNOW they are wrong, then so what...why are we worrying about going to war with them if God will take care of them in the end anyways?...

(Which brings be to another little rant...if I see the 'god bless america' thing one more time I might just swear off organized religion all together. IF there is a god, wouldn't he be bless all of the people of the earth...INCLUDING the countries that these terrorists are from? And what about Allah, and Buddah, and Ron Hubbard, and Mother Nature, and all of the other higher beings that we have the freedom to worship in this country...why are we excluding those? Am I overreacting?)

Ok...I've probably insulted enough people in those last few paragraphs already...let the flaming begin...

(And, btw, it is all in the name of good, healthy debate...)

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
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Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

Oh yea...and speaking of 'God's Will'...everyone needs to read what Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have to say on the tragedy:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2001Sep14.html

Sometimes I'm embarrased to be an American...

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We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
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Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Enumclaw, Wa
Posts: 268

Homer, maybe I was unclear in what I said. But I think you were extremly out of line in what you said, and it was also extremly rude.
I am actually a very sensible person, and am not very religous. Ive been to church three times, so I would really prefer not to get into a religous debate because it is for the most part unknown territory to me.

God will take care of those responsibe for this, but it is necessary to go to war with or eliminate those responsibe so that something like this will never happen again.

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God bless the USA! The country I love, and will support at all costs.

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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Homer, maybe I was unclear in what I said. But I think you were extremly out of line in what you said, and it was also extremly rude.

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__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
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Registered: Dec 1999
Location: "Children are a gift from God, they are a reward"
Posts: 1049

"No self-respecting Rational would give himself over as a guinea-pig."

Not even if it was logical to do so?
I added that bit 'cause I thought you would respond to it Toby. I hope the hurricane didn't get your feet wet.

Homer, I understand your frustrations and concerns. When anybody ties together war and religion, I cringe. I've been pleased so far with the lack of that kind of rhetoric so far. Most of the Christians I've spoken to/heard have been more concerned with those that have perished and their loved ones than retaliation. The majority that have said anything about the terrorists have actually done so in prayers of forgiveness.
I think that you're right saying that if we Christians start to call for a "holy war", than we've committed just as grievious a sin as those misguided terrorists. A big part of the Islamic religion concerns protecting the weak, and I can't see how a sane person could disconnect all those innocent civilians from that word. This is not about Christians versus Muslims, it's about sane, rational, caring people against psychotic, illogical, anger filled people.
No one race/religion/country has a monopoly on idiots. We must all strive to remember this, and not let what they do make us into something akin to them.

Michael

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

quote:

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Originally posted by homer
In their God's eyes, they dished out justice by killing Americans.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:

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Originally posted by LarryN
[...] Last night on CNN one commentator made a off the cuff comment saying that it's really weird that the person you would have been cutting off in your car on Monday, you're hugging today. [...]

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
Not even if it was logical to do so?

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Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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Is that really what their God calls justice or is it what they THINK he calls justice?

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Registered: May 2000
Location:
Posts: 209

Getting somewhat back on the topic title...

...those of us who carry many electronic gadgets aboard may now face additional scrunity...

Although this article appearing online at sfgate.com and in print in the San Francisco Chronicle broadly describes the new guidlines in airline travel, I can forsee how security can react to the devices and accessories we (or at least I) carry.

This paragraph from the article is perhaps a sign of the new air travel:

"Minimize carry-on baggage. It will be inspected more closely than before, and this will slow down you and those behind you."

In the national media, they're reporting on the many airports now conducting "dump checks"-- they empty your baggage, sift through the contents and leave you to re-pack.

I know there are some in the global audience who have said that "it's about time" the U.S. beefed up air security and/or that America's air travel was blessed/naive/[pick your favorite term for saying "not waking up"). Whether it's justified or not, I don't think I can ignore the fact that the events on Tuesday will affect how and what I pack as well as what I carry onboard... I'm the type of person who will try to avoid adding inconvenience by being informed (and if you haven't learned the layering method of packing, that might assist greatly should you get selected for the dump check).

With past postings here on VisorCentral asking, debating and using our PDAs on planes, we might find that our ability to do so may alter in the coming months. Time will tell as there's no certaintly that the new guidelines are permanent.

Thoughts?

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

I'm not sure how bag searches, banning steak knifes on flights, and restricting carry-ons are a security beef-up.

Terrorists aren't stupid. They aren't going to go 'gee, they are searching everyone's back packs. There goes my whole plan to hijack the plane.'

ANYTHING can become a weapon. Smart terrorists can conceal pretty much anything. All that these searching of bags is doing is inconveniencing the innocent traveler.

There are clear alternatives. I believe it is France who always has an undercover, armed agent on board at all times. They could seal the cabin so that once the plane is in the air, there is no way to gain access. They could develop ways to prevent jet fuel from fireballing upon impact. They could develop remote systems to alert ground crews when and how a plane is hijacked. Improve Auto-pilot functionality. They could develop plane parachutes (like they currently have with personal aircraft). Etc.

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We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
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Last edited by homer on 09-17-2001 at 11:33 PM