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fixitgal
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Pleasanton, CA
Posts: 253

Whooowweeee...

It's been such a long time since we could have a flame war with a wacko...

I was kind of enjoying the peace and quiet

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01-23-2001 07:32 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by linguas
{...} I believe that true "thinking" people come to their own conclusions based on their life-experiences, and not because they read it in some book or hear it from some fanatic.{...}

I believe that true "thinking" people wouldn't be that limited either. Basing your opinions on _any_ single source (be it your own anecdotal experiences, a book, a fanatic, ad nauseum) is a recipe for non-thinking, IMO.

01-23-2001 08:08 PM

linguas
Member

Registered: Jun 2000
Location: South Lake, FL
Posts: 103

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
<...>Basing your opinions on _any_ single source (be it your own anecdotal experiences, a book, a fanatic, ad nauseum) is a recipe for non-thinking, IMO.

Of course, a person's own life-experiences are not anecdotal to them, are they? I pluralize "experiences" because I do not consider them to form a single source, but rather an accumulation of lessons and gained wisdom.
I do agree with your point, though, and it is well taken.

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01-23-2001 09:30 PM

Toby
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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by linguas
Of course, a person's own life-experiences are not anecdotal to them, are they?

They should be.

quote:
I pluralize "experiences" because I do not consider them to form a single source, but rather an accumulation of lessons and gained wisdom.

They are still from a single source, though (that person). They are subject to whatever observational biases that person allows themself to have. They are also subject to skew from the limited experiences (no matter how extensive an individual might think they are) of that individual. I've done a lot in my life, but it would be foolhardy and _un_wise for me to think that I've experienced any more than 1/6,000,000,000th of the potential experiences available on the planet. Even someone who goes through an identical chain of events as I might have doesn't necessarily experience the same thing. I'm not suggesting taking any psycho's word for things, but without taking the experiences of others into account, our worldview is still extremely limited from a "true thinking" perspective.

quote:
I do agree with your point, though, and it is well taken.

Well, you didn't seem to agree, but OK.

01-23-2001 09:44 PM

linguas
Member

Registered: Jun 2000
Location: South Lake, FL
Posts: 103

quote:
Originally posted by Toby

quote:
Originally posted by linguas
Of course, a person's own life-experiences are not anecdotal to them, are they?

They should be.

Actually, a person's experiences cannot, by definition, be anecdotal to them.

quote:
it would be foolhardy and _un_wise for me to think that I've experienced any more than 1/6,000,000,000th of the potential experiences available on the planet.

Obviously. Nobody is ever going to experience all there is to experience. And yet, we come to conclusions based on what we do know nonetheless. How could you have any opinion at all otherwise? Unless you are implying that you never come to any conclusion about anything.

quote:
Well, you didn't seem to agree, but OK.

I agree with your point about basing one's opinion on a single source being non-thinking.

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01-23-2001 10:14 PM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

Basing a viewpoint on one's own life experience is limiting. How limiting is determined by how much that person has experienced. Forming an intelligent opinion requires expanding one's point of view. This can be accomplished by reading, doing, listening, ad infinitum. It does require an open mind and an imagination. We bring part of ourselves to anything we read, do, hear, etc. and if we're unable to conceive something different then reading, doing, or listening do absolutely nothing for us. That's why life experiences weigh very heavily on forming an opinion. It doesn't require much imagination. It does limit our forming an opinion to tangibles, however. Reading gets around this, but requires a much greater level of imagination. I don't think bkbk has much imagination because he reads something that coincides with a life experience he may have had and that text becomes his imagination for him. He seems unable to conceive anything other than what those texts he holds so dear encompass. If we're going to consider bkbk as being limited then one's life experience(s) don't count much toward expansion because he has had his own life experiences.

Good to have you join in, Toby! It's about time. It's nice to see linguas in this hodgepodge as well. This'll be good, clean fun!

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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

01-23-2001 10:53 PM

linguas
Member

Registered: Jun 2000
Location: South Lake, FL
Posts: 103

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
Basing a viewpoint on one's own life experience is limiting. How limiting is determined by how much that person has experienced.

Quite true. Maybe the choice of the words "life-experience" was a poor one. I'm not at all suggesting that people should be empirics and rely solely on their own experiences to formulate opinions - that leads to conclusions such as bkbk's that "all cops are corrupt pigs." He has obviously put himself in confrontational situations with law-enforcement that have colored his view, but he doesn't (and obviously doesn't want to) look beyond his own experience when forming his opinion (except when he finds one that agrees with his own.) This is why he is so disdaining of the concensus.

quote:
Forming an intelligent opinion requires expanding one's point of view. This can be accomplished by reading, doing, listening, ad infinitum.

All of which form part of one's own experiences! Reading and listening to others' experiences is essential to forming an opinion since it provides a way to check our own against a wider sample. My problem with bkbk's rantings is that he has stopped looking for answers. He doesn't add the experiences and views of others to his pool (puddle?) of knowledge, and therefore has little from which to form rational opinions.
Unfortunately, when a person gets to the point where they are "stating truths" as opposed to "suggesting views," it becomes pretty pointless to try to discuss anything with them.

quote:
It's nice to see linguas in this hodgepodge as well.

What?!?! You can see me?!?! You're him aren't you!!

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01-24-2001 02:38 PM

fixitgal
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Pleasanton, CA
Posts: 253

Half the fun...

quote:
Originally posted by linguas
This is why he is so disdaining of the concensus.

It's the open exchange of ideas that seems so hard for some people to grasp. When a person forms an opinion and then closes their mind to other interaction, it limits the growth of intellectual understanding.

Accepting other people's ideas, then examining and understanding them, could idenfify knowledge that can be added to your own knowledge base. Likewise you can also reject those ideas, but it is the willingness to listen and keep an open mind that is important. That's what makes going to school so fascinating.

...and having discussions such as this one.

You folks never cease to amaze me, such a wealth of wit and humor.

Carry on.

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01-24-2001 03:04 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by linguas
Actually, a person's experiences cannot, by definition, be anecdotal to them.

I don't mean anecdotal in the sense of being told a story. I mean it in the sense of anecdotal evidence, i.e. observations or experience of an unscientific nature (which applies to how most people live their lives).

quote:
Obviously. Nobody is ever going to experience all there is to experience. And yet, we come to conclusions based on what we do know nonetheless. How could you have any opinion at all otherwise? Unless you are implying that you never come to any conclusion about anything.

No, I'm saying that coming to a conclusion based solely on my own experiences is an incomplete conclusion. I don't need to build an airplane to understand how it's done. I don't need to have cameras monitoring my every activity to know that I wouldn't particularly like the idea.

01-24-2001 03:05 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
Good to have you join in, Toby! It's about time.

Dude, I'm an INTP. We get sucked into these kind of esoteric discussions like flies to fly paper.

quote:
Originally posted by linguas
Quite true. Maybe the choice of the words "life-experience" was a poor one. I'm not at all suggesting that people should be empirics and rely solely on their own experiences to formulate opinions - that leads to conclusions such as bkbk's that "all cops are corrupt pigs."

Exactly!

quote:
{...} This is why he is so disdaining of the concensus.

Well, I'm not usually much on consensus in general either (as necessarily being correct), but they do manage to get things right sometimes.

quote:
All of which form part of one's own experiences!

Aha! I see where the fork happened. Very few people consider reading a book or talking about something an experience. If you consider such things as falling under the umbrella of experiences, then we have very little (if any) disagreement.

quote:
Reading and listening to others' experiences is essential to forming an opinion since it provides a way to check our own against a wider sample.

It also opens up new avenues of thought which we may not have explored originally.

quote:
My problem with bkbk's rantings is that he has stopped looking for answers.

*tsk tsk* A most unscientific way of living.

quote:
Unfortunately, when a person gets to the point where they are "stating truths" as opposed to "suggesting views," it becomes pretty pointless to try to discuss anything with them.

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong." - Arthur C. Clarke (1st Law)

01-24-2001 03:20 PM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by linguas
What?!?! You can see me?!?! You're him aren't you!!

Wouldn't that put the fear of eternity into bkbk! I doubt the Almighty is as snide as I am. I'm just one of His more obstinate creations. He's got patience to put up with me. I'm hoping for a sense of humor as well.

Forgive the ignorance, what's an INTP?

[Edited by dick-richardson on 01-24-2001 at 11:52 AM]

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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

01-24-2001 04:37 PM

linguas
Member

Registered: Jun 2000
Location: South Lake, FL
Posts: 103

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Very few people consider reading a book or talking about something an experience

I consider everything I do, see, hear, smell, touch, taste, feel, think, read, write or say to be part of my experience!

quote:

It also opens up new avenues of thought which we may not have explored originally.

Precisely why it is so important.

quote:
"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong." - Arthur C. Clarke (1st Law)

I like that!

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
I doubt the Almighty is as snide as I am. I'm just one of His more obstinate creations.

No, no - not Him him... Big Brother-him!
You and me both with the obstinate thing, though

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01-24-2001 06:08 PM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by linguas
No, no - not Him him... Big Brother-him!
You and me both with the obstinate thing, though

I'm trying to change the subject. I get uncomfortable when someone hits that close to the truth. How about them Celtics?

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

01-24-2001 06:14 PM

Bane
Member

Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 103

quote:
Originally posted by bkbk
" GOD LIKELY LOOKS DOWN FROM HEAVEN EVERY DAY OF HIS LIFE, AND SAYS: "WHY CAN'T MORE PEOPLE BE LIKE BKBK" "?

Well in that case. Lets round up the angery villagers with the torches and the farm impliments and form the Bkbk army or you can get a grip and join real life and have a pop tart (Lucy Charms rule applies).

Bane
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[Edited by Bane on 01-25-2001 at 04:08 PM]

01-25-2001 09:02 PM

Bane
Member

Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 103

quote:
Originally posted by Bane
or you can get a grip and join real life and have a pop tart (Lucy Charms rule applies).

If you dont like lucky charms the universe does not give a ****.

Bane
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Evil Geniuses Kick Ass

[Edited by Bane on 01-25-2001 at 04:10 PM]

01-25-2001 09:06 PM

bkbk
Member

Registered: Jun 2000
Location:
Posts: 594

Vindicated.
SixPack never existed, never will exist.
So much for truth in advertising.
InnoGear is scum.

02-02-2001 05:59 PM

dick-richardson
Member

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

quote:
Originally posted by bkbk
Vindicated.
SixPack never existed, never will exist.
So much for truth in advertising.
InnoGear is scum.

I disagree. Where's your class-action lawsuit? Not many have disagreed that Innogear sucks. A few felt there was even going to be a SixPak. Almost everyone thinks your class-action lawsuit is a pile of crap. Re-read the first posts before your first ramblings about a class-action lawsuit. After your grand posts people defended innogear because most of us don't want to have to pay through the nose because some fanatic jacked our prices through the roof with threats of lawsuit. Your egoism shines brightly.

[Edited by dick-richardson on 02-03-2001 at 12:18 AM]

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-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

02-03-2001 04:39 AM

bkbk
Member

Registered: Jun 2000
Location:
Posts: 594

Gee, it's amazing that the only respondent is the man for whom God has nothing better in life than to wipe peoples' asses.

02-04-2001 09:31 AM

matty
Member

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: brooklyn
Posts: 268

quote:
Originally posted by bkbk
Gee, it's amazing that the only respondent is the man for whom God has nothing better in life than to wipe peoples' asses.

not being a religious man, it's hard for me to know for certain... but isn't god a fan of humility?

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02-04-2001 03:16 PM

MarkEagle
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Connecticut USA
Posts: 2682

quote:
Originally posted by bkbk
...the only respondent is the man for whom God has nothing better in life than to wipe...

I hope, for your sake, that you're never in the position of needing that service yourself...

While it may not be as glamorous as whatever it is you do, it is a worthy profession none the less. Having had friends and relatives in need of that level of care, I can really appreciate the wipers. They are much larger heroes than you or I...

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02-04-2001 03:34 PM

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