Registered: Feb 2001
Location:
Posts: 134

dshorter,

If I remember correctly...what he hated was the Palm VII. If I also remember correctly, Jeff Hawkins team developed it. If I also remember correctly...Jeff said he didn't want to build it either...but the management pushed it. I do think attitude has a lot to do with it...we all know MS...they want this space...they'll do anything to get it...and we expect it. If they are jerks...we don't really care because we don't have much of a choice...with Windows controlling the world and Mac relying on MS products...they are a necessary evil. But what I don't expect...is the lame attitude from Palm who has more to lose than MS. The fact is they no longer appear hungry. Someone here made a really good point...they have become a reactive company. MS doesn't care about what Palm has...they are pulling out all the stops with supporting devices like iPaq and their new ebooks and tablets.

My only point is that I expected more out of Palm than we got. If they don't start turning things around...in a year...this will be a very different space. I don't want to write for iPaqCentral.

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I saw that everyone else had a signature and I felt left out, so here is mine.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: LA, Boston, MO. its different every 6 months
Posts: 56

my email

my email would be [email protected]. feel free to disparage me in any way you feel necessary via a personal email or more comments right here.


here is the description posted on the front page. when i first skimmed the article, i saw nothing to do with palms lack of innovation:
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article: "Dear Palm, I hate you." -- Bill Gates
Thursday April 12 - 7:20 PM EST
Alan is up in arms over recent news on Microsoft's upcoming Windows XP operating system
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then when i read the first 2 points (usually this technique is used to summarize the article), again i saw no mention of palms lack of innovation:
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1. Microsoft announced that they will not support USB 2.0 in their soon to be release Windows XP. They will instead support Apple's Firewire technology.

2. Microsoft announced that they will not support Bluetooth in XP, but instead will support 802.11, the wireless protocol embraced by many computer manufacturers, and popularized by Apple.
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after rereading the article, i do understand that palms lack of innovation is the thrust of the article. i apologize for the misunderstanding. i normally skim articles first to see if they appear to be something i want to read. based on the title and the first 2 points, i had decided that i did not want to read any more, as the title and 2 points made me take you for an uninformed writer who was ranting about microsofts next OS. i see now that this is not necessarily the case, so i apologize. and ill stop being a jerk


as far as the mention about slashdot and the ignore feature, i was quite serious. it did have somewhat to do with your article, but there have been articles in the past that i would have liked to ignore.

Registered: Feb 2001
Location:
Posts: 134

Personally I am not interested in giving you a hard time. I came here to debate. I had said earlier that I should have elaborated more in the piece...and by the way...though the title was mine the summary way not. What has amazed me is how hot a topic this has become so it seems to me that a nerve has been struck. One of my issues...things that has upset me is that while Palm is sitting out there waiting for Bluetooth...we could have had 802.11 support. I have it in my house...I would love to use it with my handheld. Both technologies are good ones...but only one is available and has been for a long time now. I am tired of waiting for Palm to do anything.




If anyone is interested in discussing forums in general...I've posted a new thread over here and I would love to have people participate...I'd like some input.

http://discussion.visorcentral.com/...&threadid=14027

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I saw that everyone else had a signature and I felt left out, so here is mine.

Registered: Dec 2000
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Innovation-- No reading on the scopes, Capt.

Really, palm doesn't have any clue what the public wants because they have been repackaging everything with near to no wizzy bang tricks they taught their new handhelds to make them seem better than their predicessors. In my opinion, this new "Expansion" is a gimmick. You CAN'T PLUG A MODEM IN!! YOU ADD AN INCH ON THE BACK OF IT JUST TO SURF THE WEB. VISOR HAS THINMODEM, WHICH ADDS NO THICKNESS WHATSOEVER! HANDSPRING HAS THE HAND OVER PALM, BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING SO DOWN BABY!!

SunVisor

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SunVisor

Registered: Dec 2000
Location:
Posts: 384

Palm is hurting

Palm really screw-up this time, this is a part of a report from PalmInfocenter:

"Palm is struggling to cut costs and come up with cash wherever it can. They are trying to renegotiate those troublesome component contracts and are trying to cut corners wherever possible. "Even a dollar saved on packaging translates into millions of dollars," Chief Marketing Officer Satjiv Chahil said. "Anywhere there is room to save a penny we are looking at it."

They have trimmed back their workforce and are considering ways to free up the $238 million in cash they have tried up in what was going to be their new company headquarters.


"Even a dollar saved on packaging translates into millions of dollars"..."trying to cut corners"

That's not sounding good . Man, they are even talking about sell some of the land on their new headquarters, or even selling their headquarter all together. That sounds even worse !!!

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Fat's

Registered: Feb 2001
Location:
Posts: 134

Okay...In order to keep the piece and issue my Mia Culpa...I have reworked the objectionable intro of the piece associate with this thread (you'll find it on the index)...I hope that from this moment on we can ditch the former arguments (which I could care less about) and continue with the current theme. I hope this serves as a sufficient statement of regret...as I am very sorry for this thread going bad in the first place. I want to reiterate that I did not do anything wrong and I was fully within my rights. I have sent a formal letter to the Chinese and they have accepted it. If you still do not find it acceptable, I suggest you register a complaint with the UN.


Regards,

Alan Graham
Secretary of Offense

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: I'm not sure, but I see lots of lights everywhere.
Posts: 1287

Re: Palm is hurting

quote:

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Originally posted by Fat_Man
They have trimmed back their workforce and are considering ways to free up the $238 million in cash they have tried up in what was going to be their new company headquarters.[/i]

"Even a dollar saved on packaging translates into millions of dollars"..."trying to cut corners"

That's not sounding good . Man, they are even talking about sell some of the land on their new headquarters, or even selling their headquarter all together. That sounds even worse !!!

---

Heh... Microsoft failed to destroy Palm, but maybe a slowing economy will! Wouldn't that be sick irony if PocketPC wins by default, simply because it's the last man standing? The thought of Ben Waldman standing atop Palm's ashes is....well, scary.

Despite the fact that I prefer PalmOS devices in general, I can't honestly say I feel any real sympathy for Palm in their current situation. They made their bed....now they must lay in it!

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My blog: Pocketfactory

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 200

I'd be interested to know how different possible extensions (larger screen, more RAM, ...) would affect costs and availability. For instance, HS always said adding flash ROM would increase the cost of the Visor more than it would be worth... so they came up with the "innovation" of removing flash ROM (which Palm has also followed).

Some new technology, like MP3 playback, are things that not everybody wants. In this regard, HS has a good model with the Springboard slot that accommodates a bunch of extra hardware (albeit just one at a time). Unfortunately, this conflicts with Palm and HS's infatuation for thin svelte devices like the Vx/m500/VE. I guess one reason Palm went with SD is to keep their Vx form factor... is that a reasonable tradeoff? Will they announce a larger, more expandable unit later on?

Is the PDA world really going in the direction of PocketPCs and all that multimedia support? A lot of that really does require a better architecture, and Palm is presumably hard at work on OS5.0 and the ARM processors. You could fault them for not starting even earlier, but at this point it seems like there's not much else they can do, and the m500-series is just a stopgap.

Finally, I don't follow PocketPCs, but I'd like to know how innovative THEY will be, now that the platform is starting to do better.

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: I'm not sure, but I see lots of lights everywhere.
Posts: 1287

By the way, am I the only one here who thinks Waldman looks like Pee Wee Herman?

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Registered: Jun 2000
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 17

So what's next?

So does anyone know any specifics about improvements in PalmOS 4? Or for that matter 5? I think everyone would like to see better screen resolution but IMHO they should immediately do away with what I consider the biggest design flaw of the Palm UI: the input only "writing" area underneath the screen. Just by eyeballing my VDx that would be another 50x160 pixles (or 8000 pixles for those without calculators). Also, I think including a headphone jack (and the software support that goes with it) is a must. At that point there's audio input (the mic that nobody uses) and output without adding any extra size, so the VisorPhone2 (don't get excited, I just made that up) could be alot smaller. Also, a (insert your audio format here) player would just need storage, no extra hardware. Who else has some (realistic) ideas?

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 200

quote:

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Originally posted by agraham999
I hope that from this moment on we can ditch the former arguments (which I could care less about) and continue with the current theme...as I am very sorry for this thread going bad in the first place

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Registered: Mar 2000
Location: NC, Indiana
Posts: 465

Alan

I like your new version alot better. In my first post on the thead I liked your opinion on Palm holding back the Palm-based industry, but I disagreed with your interface arguments. Now that that you've reorganized your ideas to concentrate on the 'Palm Slowing Us Down' crux, I have to agree with it all. Thanks for listening and writing!

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-Vincent

Registered: Apr 2001
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Posts: 2

Missing the point

The discussion about Microsoft, USB ports, Bluetooth etc. is all mute. The OS is central here to the future success of Palm. Firstly, because as their CEO has cited, they are in the OS business, not in the business of making hardware. Secondly, because they will inevitably lose out in the hardware wars.

The PalmOS is an incredibly weak and non-future proof OS. Its 16bit architecture says it all. The only real advantage is the huge developer base and third party apps - but as Microsoft have proved, that is under threat as more developers port to both systems.

Pocket PC OS is yes, more powerful - but how on earth can MS create an OS that requires so much power just to run the basics?

People wake up. The real threat will come from Symbian (www.symbian.com) and their EPOC OS. From the ground up, this is the most technically advanced and PDA/mobile specific OS there is on the market. Compact, efficient and built in components so you take what you need, when you need.

Even if we assume there are 15 million PDA units out there, this figure represents years of selling. The mobile industry has achieved in excess of 500 million units. This is the real threat.

Mobile handsets are closing the gap between PDA and cellular phone. Soon, the distinction will be lost as devices handle both voice and data.

Palm's biggest victory in this market is probably Nokia...yet Nokia will be sitting PalmOS on top of an EPOC platform. Why? Because PalmOS simply doesn't have the power needed to do the job.

The Symbian consortium is a formiddable one, and one that has the power to deliver 3 to 4 times PalmOS units in a very short period of time. Are developers going to switch? What do you think given the reach into critical mass? Lest we forget the increasing Java presence, which could make software development truly platform independent!!! And of course the growth of Wireless ISPs....

Yes, Symbian are not a player right now in the PDA market. But how long will the PDA market continue to use that name? Convergence is inevitable.

There is a reason MS are touting their Stinger...recognition that we haven't seen anything yet.

Rumours have surfaced many times over a link-up between Palm and Symbian. But nothing has ever come to fluition. The Palm rhetoric is ultimately doomed unless they are prepared to join one team or other. The Symbian consortium, with Ericsson, Nokia, Motorola, Sony, Matu****a (and several more) is equally as huge as Microsoft. In an industry with huge steaks, the idea of "if you can't beam 'em, join 'em" makes sense.

Palm have thrived on arogance....not its time to wake up and smell the coffee beans.

Java and WAP/-iMode Wireless ISP services will undermine Palm's lead in third party development. Okay, this will still take time, but its coming. And if Palm switch their OS to a more powerful architecture, they will, overnight, lose all advantages they had in terms of developed applications.

Wake up Palm...MS and Symbian and in the fast lane and their supercharged operating systems are light years ahead.

Can you blame Handspring for hinting they may use another OS? Ever thought they may switch to something from Symbian or worse still, MS?

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: I'm not sure, but I see lots of lights everywhere.
Posts: 1287

Re: Missing the point

quote:

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Originally posted by SSmith
People wake up. The real threat will come from Symbian (www.symbian.com) and their EPOC OS. From the ground up, this is the most technically advanced and PDA/mobile specific OS there is on the market.

---

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My blog: Pocketfactory

Registered: Dec 2000
Location:
Posts: 384

Re: Missing the point

quote:

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Originally posted by SSmith
People wake up. The real threat will come from Symbian (www.symbian.com) and their EPOC OS.

---

Hold on...I propose another suspect. The real threat to Palm's dominance may not be from Symbian or Microsoft, but........ Handspring!! It's conceivable that HS may be a threat to Palm given Handspring's rapid growth, and it's impact on Palm's market shares. But more important... Handspring is getting acceptance. Due to clever and aggressive marketing, people are begining to associate the name "Visor" or "Handspring" to PDA much like "Palm Pilot" was a recognition name.

Remember, Handspring has licenced the Palm OS til 2009, but Handspring has not ruled out using other OS's or even developed it's own OS. This allow Handspring to be flexible and adaptive in the future. Another supporting point is Handspring's distribution of their products, linking deals with Wal-Mart, Target, Staples, BestBuy, OfficeMax, and recently corporate distribution deals. All this points to one conclusion: EXPANSION!!!

Handspring is aggressive, adaptive, and innovative. Look what it has done in only a few years. So the Palm OS may not be the best in functionality for future models. You know what?...unlike the Palm, Handspring don't HAVE TO BE LIMITED TO A SINGLE OS !!! Handspring will just adapt to a new OS and keep expanding !!!

Watch-out Palm, your sibling may be your worst ememy.

but that's just my $0.02

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Fat's

Registered: Feb 2000
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Posts: 1571

I agree Fat_Man

I agree with you Fat_Man. That why I think Handspring is a great investment and Palm is not. Handspring has no where to go but up. Palm on the other hand has reached its peak and is heading down. I think Handspring has a lot up their sleeve that will be unleased in the next few years.

Registered: Dec 2000
Location:
Posts: 3

FatMan's right

Handspring is Palm's worst enemy at this point in time-- Pocket PC is such a little Jack compared to the Palm OS giant at the top of the beanstalk-- but the baby giant Handspring is getting bigger!

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SunVisor

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Connecticut USA
Posts: 2682

Re: Re: Missing the point

quote:

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Originally posted by Fat_Man
Handspring will just adapt to a new OS and keep expanding !!!

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They don't even need to go to another OS. If Palm falters badly enough, Handspring can (if it's not in their license agreement, it should be) just take over the OS and keep moving. Sort of like coming home to poppa!

Remember, Hawkins created all of this. I'm sure he won't sit back and watch it all crumble without doing anything about it.

In the end, I don't believe it will be who wins the handheld war... it will be what wins it.

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God bless America, my home sweet home...

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Marin County, CA
Posts: 1

right on the money Alan!

quote:

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Originally posted by JHromadka

Discuss Alan's article here.

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Sam Levin
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Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 2

re: Symbian vs MS

Too Foo Fighter:

I would certainly agree that MS is in a strong position, but your analysis of where Symbian stands today is a little inaccurate.

Motorola has NOT pulled out of Symbian. Rather, it canned a project with Psion. And Psion is NOT Symbian, it only owns 33%. Psion's performance has no direct correlation with that of Symbian.

MS is big. Who can argue that. But stack all of the companies backing Symbian together and you have an altogether different picture.

MS may be heading towards a .NET structure. Rather than push everyone out, this does open doors, especially as we head to XML. XML/Java etc. are all platform independent. No longer do we necessarily need to be tied to one OS over another.

And we should not forget their Ballmers statement where he has admitted their future architecture is going to support PalmOS. Why? Because no one is sure.

Either way, the point of the argument - and we agree here - is that PalmOS is the weaker than David. MS or Symbian may be the Goliath, but Palm doesn't have any stones to throw....yet.