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icthus
Member

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Pullman, WA
Posts: 130

quote:
Originally posted by jeffbeerman2

The "corrupt databases" are the minds of those who have chosen a way of life which is limiting and difficult, then resent others who do not choose to practice their beliefs. There are plenty of horrible things in the world to worry about much worse than porn... like people who kill, hurt, and hate each other for religion, politics, and morals. Hey icthus, aren't there any prostitutes to throw stones at in your neighborhood?

To clarify, the life I have chosen (which has not been disclosed to you other than my dislike of pornography) is anything but limiting and difficult; in fact, it is very freeing and easy.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but you seem to think my judging of pornography is out of bounds. And yet you assert that killing, hurt, and hate are all bad. What do you base that on? Obviously you have something you base your beliefes on, your sense of what is right and wrong. What is your standard of right and wrong based on?
A bit of a side note, porn sometimes leads to these other "much worse" things. Serial killer Ted Bundy said that one of the main influences in his life was porn. It was not the only thing, and it doesn't have that kind of affect in most people, but it did with him, as with others. I personally know several men who's lives have been ruined by porn. It has torn apart their families, their careers, and left them in a state that they will never fully recover from. I consider that pretty "horrible".
"aren't there any prostitutes to throw stones at in your neighborhood". Are you implying that I am one of these people that kills, hurts, or hates? What is that based on? I never said I hate anybody, and it simply isn't true. Just the opposite is true; I don't hate people. I am resistant to the idea of an open acceptance of pornography because of my concern for people, individually, and as a society. Porn has been proven to be addictive and bad for individuals in a number of other ways. Check out this article which discusses the effects of online pornography.
If my post came accross as hateful, I apologize. I don't apologize for what I said though. Porn is a bad idea, not just from a "religious" stand point, as some have asserted (what's wrong with relion anyway? Some religions have some serious problems, but religion, in general, is just a system of belief, and you can't tell me anyone reading this post doesn't hold certain beliefs), but from a very practical, lets look at the facts point of view. It is destructive to people and to society, and to simply throw our hands up and and say "oh well, who cares" is irresponsible and inappropriate for anyone who is a funtioning member of society.
You may not agree with a word I've said, but my beliefs arn't based on popular opinion. (Contrary to modern thinking, truth and facts are not relative).

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IYYAYAS

AMMO - Providing the enemy the opportunity to die for his country.

05-29-2001 10:21 AM

Vertigo
Member

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posts: 406

Guess some people just can't grasp the concept of a topic. This started off as a light-hearted topic, but the morally retarded and holier-than-thou types had to come in and start preaching the disasterous effects of viewing pornography.
Have fun in the offtopic forum, this sucks.

Last edited by Vertigo on 05-29-2001 at 11:37 AM

05-29-2001 11:31 AM

Black_Dragon
Member

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Lafayette, IN
Posts: 45

Didn't we all learn something about not bringing up the topic of Religion, Politics, or Apple Computers? Lord knows *I* did...

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"Hey! Check out these cresent-fresh skulls in my salad!"- Sifl & Olly

05-29-2001 04:17 PM

creole
Member

Registered: Mar 2001
Location:
Posts: 347

I'm going to chime in here. For the record, this will be off topic.

Vertigo...

While I have never seens posts by you, I found your atttude very unnecessary. It appears that you are the only one who can post a valid opinion. That is the gist that I get from the last few posts by you in this thread. You minimize any content that icthus and BobbyMike's posts have while putting your viewpoint forward as "the general consensus".

I further felt that both of those users' posts were tasteful and reflected their personal beliefs or opinions, while YOUR words come across as a verbal attack:

Hey icthus, aren't there any prostitutes to throw stones at in your neighborhood?

I feel that this was unnecessary and uncalled for. If you cannot accept other people's opinions, then don't post here.

Facts (yes they are facts) have been posted. You cannot deny them no matter how you try.

http://www.levelbest.com/portfolio/...nough/stats.htm

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/pornplag.html

http://dianedew.com/porn.htm

and finally the search query I used to get these pages:
http://www.google.com/search?source...+of+pornography

05-29-2001 08:24 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Hmmm...I find myself in the unique position here of having to 'defend' something which I consider serving no useful purpose to me.

quote:
Originally posted by creole
[...] Facts (yes they are facts) have been posted. You cannot deny them no matter how you try.

Actually, I wouldn't consider them 'facts'. At best, I'd consider them (along with the links you posted) statistics with unknown methodologies, and potential bias in drawing conclusions from the data.

quote:
http://www.levelbest.com/portfolio/...nough/stats.htm

I've left this one since it seems the least biased presentation, but it still seems to have some problems...

quote:
Teens use the Internet an average of 8.5 hours per week for chatting and e-mailing, compared to 1.8 hours spent using it for school work.

An estimated 18.8 million kids under 18-years-old have access to home computers.

In August, 1997, there were 92,000 sexually explicit sites on the Internet and an estimated 266 new porn sites every day. "Adult" entertainment is estimated to be the largest sector of sales on the Internet.

These qualify for what I'd consider the FUD factor. Throw some numbers up, and hope to scare people into thinking that their kids are going to be snookered into the world of porn. You wanted the kids in the first place. Why don't you act like a parent and not ask the government to do it for you? And no, I won't 'feel differently when I have kids'. I have a kid. She will have whatever access to a computer that I consider safe and sane. She will not be allowed to roam free on the Internet any more than I'd let her roam free on the streets of New Orleans or New York.

quote:
The vast majority of Americans (94%) believe a ban on Internet pornography should be legal.

The vast majority of Americans are lacking in their understanding of the concepts of freedom, responsibility, and the Constitution it would seem, then.

quote:
UNICEF estimates that one million children are forced into prostitution or used to produce pornography each year.

In which countries? What percentage of the citizenry in those countries is on the Internet?

quote:
Many are handed over (or sold) by their families driven by the extremes of poverty....

Then it stands to reason that these families don't have computers and trying to tie Internet porn into it is a weak link, at best.

quote:
The Internet also has given dealers in child pornography a far bigger audience--and anonymity.

Oooh...the 'anonymity' boogie man.

quote:
We currently have no legal means to protect children from sexually explicit material on the Internet. The door has been flung open wide for pornographers and sexual predators.

Yet more FUD b*llsh*t. Yes, we do. It's called parenting.

05-29-2001 09:04 PM

PDAENVY
Member

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan USA
Posts: 790

In this post, I am not addressing the merit or danger of porn. Furthermore: creole - please do not think this post is an attack on you. I am trying to explain why people have a problem with your 'facts'.

quote:
Originally posted by creole
Facts (yes they are facts) have been posted. You cannot deny them no matter how you try.

http://www.levelbest.com/portfolio/...nough/stats.htm

Creole - those 2 sentences coupled with the link immediately following them show that you don't understand that statistics can be manipulated to argue almost any case. In order to be assured of the validity of statements like those, one needs to look carefully at the organization that gathered the data, as well as their methods (as Toby mentioned).

Statements like those at the levelbest link should not be considered a fact. Unsubstantiated statements like them are not even good indicators, unless you look at who says so, how many total were studied (does 4/5 mean 5 people were asked? 50? 1000?), how questions were asked (telephone survey, on a pro-porn or anti porn website) etc.

I tried to find a good link that talks about interpreting stats, but I couldn't find one. Can anyone else suggest one?

__________________
Jeff

05-29-2001 09:57 PM

Vertigo
Member

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posts: 406

quote:
Originally posted by creole
I further felt that both of those users' posts were tasteful and reflected their personal beliefs or opinions, while YOUR words come across as a verbal attack:

Hey icthus, aren't there any prostitutes to throw stones at in your neighborhood?

I feel that this was unnecessary and uncalled for. If you cannot accept other people's opinions, then don't post here.

I never posted that. Get your 'facts' straight.

05-29-2001 10:26 PM

Black_Dragon
Member

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Lafayette, IN
Posts: 45

quote:
Originally posted by PDAENVY
Creole - those 2 sentences coupled with the link immediately following them show that you don't understand that statistics can be manipulated to argue almost any case. In order to be assured of the validity of statements like those, one needs to look carefully at the organization that gathered the data, as well as their methods (as Toby mentioned).

quote:
Originally said by Homer Simpson
Statistics can be used to prove anything is true. 17% of all people know *that*...

Or my favorite...

quote:
Originally said by Homer Simpson
Facts schmacts. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.

__________________
"Hey! Check out these cresent-fresh skulls in my salad!"- Sifl & Olly

05-30-2001 01:33 AM

BobbyMike
Member

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: "Children are a gift from God, they are a reward"
Posts: 1049

Does anyone know why a porn module would work? Or how? Or is this posting just going to degenerate into chaos (well, I guess everything does if you give it enough time)?

I do think porn is a waste of time, but I don't think it's impossible to discuss this topic without resorting to petty mean spirited name calling (or anything in that vein).

Toby, thanks for the line about parenting, I do believe that's a parents responsibility, not "the villages". (Have you ever heard Mojo's and Skip's rendition of "Burn Down The Malls!"?)

Back to the module. I just don't see how it would be profitable to sell people a module that just had a static image database on it, porn or anything else. The images would have to so totally unique, and not available anywhere else, to justify the cost. Wouldn't it be simpler to configure an Avantgo channel if you wanted "fresh" material?
(Isn't there already some subscription based "Erotic Story" Palm OS service out there?) What would be the benefit to the consumer?
Maybe interactive stories with pictures, and the module comes with an earphone plug. It would like a miniature '900 number' service. Wow. The implications are staggering. Tinny 'oohs', 'aahs', and 'grunts' in your ear while you strain to look at details in tiny pictures(and go slowly blind like those Chinese women who used to stitch those itsy, bitsy stitches!)while constantly looking around to make sure your boss, spouse, teacher, parent, or child (choose one or all of the above)isn't looking over your shoulder. Humdinger, that's some exciting!

__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

05-30-2001 04:04 AM

Yorick
Member

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Out of my skull, back in five minutes
Posts: 1435

quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Nichols
Ut oh, I just learned everyone who has participated in this thread has a one way ticket to hell.

Does that mean I have to give back the round trip ticket?

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05-30-2001 06:06 AM

jeffbeerman2
Member

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 99

More off-topic stuff

quote:
Originally posted by icthus

To clarify, the life I have chosen (which has not been disclosed to you other than my dislike of pornography) is anything but limiting and difficult; in fact, it is very freeing and easy.

I assumed you are a Christian and, like the Christians of my hometown, wish for a world where everyone thinks as you do. The thread was about porn on a module and I felt that you were imposing moral beliefs on it so I reciprocated.

quote:
Originally posted by icthus

Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but you seem to think my judging of pornography is out of bounds. And yet you assert that killing, hurt, and hate are all bad. What do you base that on?

I base my belief that killing, hurt, and hate are bad on the fact that these things affect others beyond the person killing, hurting, or hating.

quote:
Originally posted by icthus

Obviously you have something you base your beliefes on, your sense of what is right and wrong. What is your standard of right and wrong based on?

My moral beliefs are based on treating others the way they wish to be treated (platinum rule). I try not to do anything which will negatively affect others. I don't concern myself too much with, as George Carlin puts it "the invisible man in the sky with a scorecard". I DO believe that the mythology of God is a good thing for people with difficulty making their own moral decisions, it is necessary.

quote:
Originally posted by icthus

A bit of a side note, porn sometimes leads to these other "much worse" things. <some parts snipped> I personally know several men who's lives have been ruined by porn. It has torn apart their families, their careers, and left them in a state that they will never fully recover from. I consider that pretty "horrible".

I agree that any activity taken to an addictive extreme is hurtful. I also agree that porn is an industry which is often harmful to women. Religion is also harmful. I have several friends whose lives were ruined due to religion. They lost their family, friends, and fortunes in much the same way all addicts do. My town is ground zero for abortion clinic shootings and bombings. Half of the laws and taxes here are an attempt to legislate morality.

quote:
Originally posted by icthus

"aren't there any prostitutes to throw stones at in your neighborhood". Are you implying that I am one of these people that kills, hurts, or hates? What is that based on? I never said I hate anybody, and it simply isn't true.

No, I was making reference to a story in the bible found in the book of John in the 8th chapter. I am a proud athiest today, but I was once a leader in a large church. I think Jesus was a great philosopher, I just don't believe he was God because there is no church today truly following what he taught.

I apologize for flaming you. Sometimes I get a little too worked up about things.

05-30-2001 06:44 AM

Vertigo
Member

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posts: 406

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

[snip]
Back to the module. I just don't see how it would be profitable to sell people a module that just had a static image database on it, porn or anything else. The images would have to so totally unique, and not available anywhere else, to justify the cost. Wouldn't it be simpler to configure an Avantgo channel if you wanted "fresh" material?
(Isn't there already some subscription based "Erotic Story" Palm OS service out there?) What would be the benefit to the consumer?

The only way I could see a module with pictures in ROM selling is if maybe playboy sold a 'spring-boy' subscription. It would include a springboard in every issue. But that would only work if they could keep the cost down to maybe $10 a module. I mean, who wants to pay $25+ for a single issue of playboy(etc)? Hell, I've never even had the guts to go and pick up an issue of playboy to see what it cost.

All in all, I think the Porn module is a rather bad idea, unless it was just a 8MB flash module with proprietary software. That way it could be updated when new material came out.

I like the AvantGo channel idea.

quote:

Maybe interactive stories with pictures, and the module comes with an earphone plug. It would like a miniature '900 number' service. Wow. The implications are staggering. Tinny 'oohs', 'aahs', and 'grunts' in your ear while you strain to look at details in tiny pictures(and go slowly blind like those Chinese women who used to stitch those itsy, bitsy stitches!)while constantly looking around to make sure your boss, spouse, teacher, parent, or child (choose one or all of the above)isn't looking over your shoulder. Humdinger, that's some exciting!

hehehe

The more I think about it, the more I think that AvantGo Channel idea could work. But it would need to be a proprietary client, since AvantGo isn't secure, and doesn't support color (or does it? The version I have doesn't, just grayscale.)

But a module.. That would be hard ot market.

05-30-2001 07:37 AM

Visor Guy2
Member

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 211

quote:
Originally posted by Vertigo
But it would need to be a proprietary client, since AvantGo isn't secure, and doesn't support color (or does it? The version I have doesn't, just grayscale.)

Actually you are wrong in both cases. The newest version of Avantgo (Or at least the one I have most recently taken notice of) supports 8 bit color and Has access to a Secure server.

Download it here

P.S. No I do not use Avantgo for Porno!

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05-30-2001 08:39 AM

Vertigo
Member

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posts: 406

quote:
Originally posted by Visor Guy2

Actually you are wrong in both cases. The newest version of Avantgo (Or at least the one I have most recently taken notice of) supports 8 bit color and Has access to a Secure server.

Download it here

P.S. No I do not use Avantgo for Porno!

Cool! Thanks for the info

I had no idea there was a Version 4 out.
It would be nice if the conduit alerted people to updates.

05-30-2001 10:33 AM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
Or is this posting just going to degenerate into chaos (well, I guess everything does if you give it enough time)?

Entropy is an amazing thing.

quote:
I do think porn is a waste of time

Me too, which is why I considered it weird to be defending it.

quote:
Toby, thanks for the line about parenting, I do believe that's a parents responsibility, not "the villages".

Yep, keep an eye on your own kids. It's not the government's responsibility to raise them.

quote:
(Have you ever heard Mojo's and Skip's rendition of "Burn Down The Malls!"?)

I think so, but it's been a while since I've listened to anything of his.

05-30-2001 12:03 PM

BobbyMike
Member

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: "Children are a gift from God, they are a reward"
Posts: 1049

That's ok, he wrote it when Reagan was in office.
It just has a great line about, "...least common denominator, shopping mall hell..."

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

05-30-2001 12:30 PM

homer
Member

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:
Ut oh, I just learned everyone who has participated in this thread has a one way ticket to hell.

How many frequent flier miles can we earn with that?

Interesting thread. Religion usually muddies any debate, but there are some interesting posts in here (NOTE that I am not saying religion is a bad thing, just that it tends to muddy debates at times).

Someone pointed out these facts:

http://www.levelbest.com/portfolio/...nough/stats.htm

OK, so they are facts. What is the point of them? As far as I can tell, it says that there are a lot of people under the age of 18 that look at porn.

So?

How many people here have looked at porn before they were 18? (I did)

How many of you that looked at porn before they were 18 are now degenerates, serial rapists, or child molesters? (I have yet to rape anyone or molest a child)

I guess I don't see a correlation. In fact, this is human nature. Sex is only human. We like sex. It may come a s a surprise to some people, but most of us hit puberty WELL before the age of 18. To assume that teenagers are not sexual beings is gonig against common science. A LOT of people like porn. Porn is not bad. Abusing porn, as an addiction, CAN be bad, just as any addiction can be detrimental to the well being of one's personal self.

Just some thoughts.

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We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
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05-30-2001 05:18 PM

Yorick
Member

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Out of my skull, back in five minutes
Posts: 1435

quote:
Originally posted by homer
How many frequent flier miles can we earn with that?

Sorry homer, it's a boat ride!

(to clarify: the Greek version of Hell, or the Underworld, was reached via a ferry piloted by Charon, who was usually depicted as a hooded, robed skeleton.)

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05-30-2001 06:55 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by homer
OK, so they are facts.

Nah...they're not even proven to be that.

quote:
What is the point of them?

Pure unadulterated FUD.

quote:
As far as I can tell, it says that there are a lot of people under the age of 18 that look at porn.

Hence the problem. Nothing in those statistics even suggests a correlation, nevertheless a causal relationship.

quote:
So?

Exactly.

05-30-2001 07:30 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick

Sorry homer, it's a boat ride!

(to clarify: the Greek version of Hell, or the Underworld, was reached via a ferry piloted by Charon, who was usually depicted as a hooded, robed skeleton.)

This brings to mind two things...the band named after the river, and the song "Don't Pay the Ferryman".

05-30-2001 07:34 PM

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