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A Question of 80's Talent

My wife and I were having an animated discussion over who was--objectively speaking-- more talented, Pat Benatar or Joan Jett. I voted for Joan Jett. She voted for Pat Benatar. What's your pick?

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Re: A Question of 80's Talent

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Originally posted by Keefer Lucas
My wife and I were having an animated discussion over who was--objectively speaking-- more talented, Pat Benatar or Joan Jett. I voted for Joan Jett. She voted for Pat Benatar. What's your pick?

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They're both talented, but in different ways, so it's hard to objectively say which is moreso. As a singer/songwriter, I'd have to give Pat Benatar the edge. She's got pipes, and the team of her and her husband wrote some killer songs. OTOH, Joan Jett is a respectable performer in her own right, and could probably riff rings around Pat Benatar on the guitar.

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IMHO Joan Jett - I remember tooling down the highway to Galveston in my CJ-8 with Her and the Blackhearts belting out "Bad Reputation" so loud people could hear it two lanes over.
Pat never seemed to get quite the same enthusiasm into her singing. I favor passion over technical prowness though...

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
IMHO Joan Jett - I remember tooling down the highway to Galveston in my CJ-8 with Her and the Blackhearts belting out "Bad Reputation" so loud people could hear it two lanes over.
Pat never seemed to get quite the same enthusiasm into her singing. I favor passion over technical prowness though...

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Registered: Dec 1999
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Nah, I always felt she was on display. She had good pipes, but I never really liked her style. But what the heck did I know about passion- I was only 18-19?!
Joan Jett was also about as mainstream as I went. I listened to bands like The Damned, The Cult, Bauhaus, The Waterboys, Clannad, unless it was Stevie Ray Vaughn.

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
Nah, I always felt she was on display. She had good pipes, but I never really liked her style. But what the heck did I know about passion- I was only 18-19?!

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*shrug*

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Joan Jett was also about as mainstream as I went.

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She's also about as mainstream as they get. Her neo-Punk attitude always came off to me as pure marketing. "Hey Irv, we got this gal from the Runaways who wants to go solo. How can we sell her?" "Well, she's not pretty, so we'll have to sell attitude."

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I listened to bands like The Damned, The Cult, Bauhaus, The Waterboys, Clannad, unless it was Stevie Ray Vaughn.

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My music runs the gamut. I was listening to Rhapsody in Blue on the way to work this morning. I might be listening to Iced Earth or Nevermore on the way home. I've got Stevie Ray on the CD here at the moment, though.

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I'll go with Pat, for two reasons:
1: The references to the Pat Benetar Look in Fast Times at Ridgemont High
2: Joan Jett was in that god awful movie with Michael J. Fox.

Registered: Dec 1999
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She's also about as mainstream as they get. Her neo-Punk attitude always came off to me as pure marketing. "Hey Irv, we got this gal from the Runaways who wants to go solo. How can we sell her?" "Well, she's not pretty, so we'll have to sell attitude."

Actually the Runaways split up because of internal dissension, JJ wanted to go punk, while Sandy West and Lita Ford wanted to go Metal (as if there could be a future in Metal). She actually didn't record her own album until after producing the Germ's debut album. She also did several collaborations with Paul Westerberg (who is as anti-mainstream as they come).
It all comes down to taste. Both of the gals had #1 hits, top ten hits, etc. PB has four Grammys to her name (is that a good thing? I mean Michael Jackson has some of those under his belt. Come to think of it, so does Milli Vanilli).

I'll go with Pat, for two reasons:
1: The references to the Pat Benetar Look in Fast Times at Ridgemont High
2: Joan Jett was in that god awful movie with Michael J. Fox.

Fast Times? You gotta be kiddin' me. That's like saying you like a band because they played on the soundtrack of "Swim Fan"
As to bad acting choices, as least JJ was on the big screen. PB made this dubious choice- oops!

Glass houses

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
Actually the Runaways split up because of internal dissension, JJ wanted to go punk, while Sandy West and Lita Ford wanted to go Metal (as if there could be a future in Metal).

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I don't see where that would change anything I said.

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[...] It all comes down to taste.

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Nope, as I said, it comes down to more of what you consider 'better' (which is a matter of taste). They are both very good, but at different things.

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Both of the gals had #1 hits, top ten hits, etc.

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Difference being that Pat probably had writing credits on more of hers.

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PB has four Grammys to her name (is that a good thing? I mean Michael Jackson has some of those under his belt. Come to think of it, so does Milli Vanilli).

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Milli Vanilli had to return theirs. But that's the first time I've ever heard of anyone using a Grammy as possible evidence of lack of talent. What does it say about Miles Davis because he won Grammies? Pat was awarded in the same category as those 'hacks' Tina Turner and Bonnie Raitt.

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Originally posted by Toby
"Treat me right" or "You better run" aren't passion?

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Originally posted by K. Cannon

Not to mention "The Legend of Billy Jean"

"...we can't afford to be innocent
stand up and face the enemy
it's a do or die situation...

we...will...be...invincible"

I mean "fair's fair!!"

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Registered: Dec 1999
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Nope, as I said, it comes down to more of what you consider 'better' (which is a matter of taste). They are both very good, but at different things.

?? If better is a matter of taste that it all comes down to taste....

I don't see where that would change anything I said.

She was very involved with the Punk scene, contrary to your perception of her as a faux punker- which I can't disagree with because that's what you saw. Punk was not a popular choice as a music venue among the record industry at that time. Major labels were not very welcoming. Recording execs were much happier with "Pop" rock stars. Poop, They still are. Have you listened to country music lately? Sounds like the eighties with steel guitars. Perception is after all what we're talking about.

Difference being that Pat probably had writing credits on more of hers.

Or she co-wrote with her husband. I can't disagree here either. I just happen to prefer a more "raw" sound. JJ tended to sound less "studio-ish" to me. I'm not any kind of expert on either of the gals. I owned maybe three JJ records and never had any PB.

Milli Vanilli had to return theirs. But that's the first time I've ever heard of anyone using a Grammy as possible evidence of lack of talent. What does it say about Miles Davis because he won Grammies? Pat was awarded in the same category as those 'hacks' Tina Turner and Bonnie Raitt.

Maybe you're too mainstream. The Grammys are like the Acadamy Awards or Emmys, or any other award show - reality often finds itself prey to Politics, which enter into a lot of the decisions that are made. I don't think Miles is actually the best choice to display here either. All three of his Grammy awards were awarded for albums he had put out about 20 years prior (Hall of Fame) not for current issues(Miles Ahead from 1954, 1994 - Sketches of Spain from 1959 , 1997 and Porgy and Bess from 1958, 2000 all with Gil Evans). They never gave him a Grammy for a current album because he was too far ahead of the curve. We used to blow glass listening to that man. And why use that word "hack"? I was just trying to demonstrate the scattershot territory that the Grammys represent. I wasn't using it demonstate lack of talent, more like a repudiation (sic) of proof of talent. Personally, I'd much rather listen to PB than Milli or MJ.

I can't believe I'm participating in this. Fast Times. Light Of Day. Legend of Billie Jean. What's the next movie to be brought up...Less than Zero? There's an idea: the one with the least number of lame movies to have used their music wins! Somebody go check imdb.com

Hah hah hah!

Toby's addicted to senseless trivia induced memory discussions!

Hey wait! It looks like I am too!

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
?? If better is a matter of taste that it all comes down to taste....

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
Have you listened to country music lately? Sounds like the eighties with steel guitars.

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Registered: Aug 2000
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Posts: 1062

Hey watch this

To link our music AND our bad movie discussions, one of the best lines from Mystery Science Theatre 3000--

From Overdrawn at the Memory Bank (starring Raul Julia), said by a striped-shirted, spiked-haired, chipmunked-teethed brunette in reponse to a question from her co-worker:

"Um...Love is a Battlefield?"

Registered: Dec 1999
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No. I'm saying that whether someone prefers a better singer over a better guitar player _is_ a matter of taste, but that there are some more objective criteria that can be used to evaluate which is better within certain criteria. IOW, Pat Benatar is undoubtedly a better singer, but not everyone considers singing to be the mark of a better 'artist'.

Exactly - it's a matter of taste as to what one considers "more talented" . In your opinion, and in others, PB is a "better" singer. Someone with different criteria can, and will, have a different opinion. That is the way of the world.

No, I never said she was a faux punker. I said she was mainstream (although that makes one faux to 'purists', e.g. Green Day isn't considered punk because they've sold more than 5 albums). She was on MTV as much as anyone back in the day.

No you said that she was a neo-punker (?) and implied she was marketed on attitude, not her looks.

My comment about you being too mainstream was a joke. Mainstream people know who Miles Davis is and might even have an album of his, but they never listen to it.

How convenient that she didn't make punk music then.

No, she just started her own label and produced it. (although she played on many punk albums as a guest artist)

And that's still irrelevant to the quality of the music that gets the awards. A Grammy doesn't make a great work crap, nor does it make crap work great.

I agree, that is the point I was trying to make.

Why not? He won a Grammy. If winning a Grammy means anything about the talent of a recipient (which it doesn't), then it applies to him as well.

He was awarded Grammys based on work he had done in the past. It's pretty safe to award somebody an award 20 years later and say their work was seminal. My question is- why wasn't he awarded one for an album when it was released?

Except that no one offered Grammies equating to talent (except you). I think you're getting too caught up in punk's mystique and politics and not its reality. Punk was/is a religion.

No, I was trying to separate the two. The Grammys don't represent talent or lack there of - merely a group of peoples opinions of a given album at a given time.

Punk had politics, but no mystique. It's no different than speed metal or hip hop. It started as something small amongst a small group of misfits -in punks case, English prole kids in the '70s with no futures (read jobs)-, got big enough to be noticed by "cool" people and then became a marketing niche. It's not a religion as much as it's a choice people make to be "different". I listened to some bands that could be considered punk, and even own a pair of Doc Martens (from a store in London!), but I was in London in the '70s and I saw semnial punks there and feel no kinship with them. I was born and raised in the south and feel more kinship with Elvis or Steve Earle.

Punk these days seems to represent bored American middle class suburban kids trying to be different than the dopers, gangers, soshes (socialites), Phish-heads, and other "different" groups.

I'll bet that Joan Jett has more songs sold to movie soundtracks, though.

I'll bet you're right too. I know she was on the soundtrack to Tank Girl (sadly a failed movie also)

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quote:

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
Exactly - it's a matter of taste as to what one considers "more talented" . In your opinion, and in others, PB is a "better" singer.

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In anyone's opinion with a working set of ears.

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Someone with different criteria can, and will, have a different opinion. That is the way of the world.

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That's why I qualified the criteria I was basing things on. In some respects either could be considered 'better'.

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No you said that she was a neo-punker (?) and implied she was marketed on attitude, not her looks.

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She _was_ marketed on her attitude (just like the Sex Pistols).

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My comment about you being too mainstream was a joke.

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I don't catch any humor in it.

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Mainstream people know who Miles Davis is and might even have an album of his, but they never listen to it.

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No, that's not mainstream. That's called being a poseur. It's also considered fighting words in some circles that I used to frequent.

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No, she just started her own label and produced it. (although she played on many punk albums as a guest artist)

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That's assuming that something at that time could be considered 'punk'.

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I agree, that is the point I was trying to make.

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Except that in the context of our discussion, it was a straw man.

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He was awarded Grammys based on work he had done in the past.

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So, because Lou Reed received a contemporary Grammy for one of his works, that means any different?

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It's pretty safe to award somebody an award 20 years later and say their work was seminal. My question is- why wasn't he awarded one for an album when it was released?

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What difference does it make? Grammies still didn't enter into the discussion, and I still fail to see what the connection is with anything.

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No, I was trying to separate the two. The Grammys don't represent talent or lack there of - merely a group of peoples opinions of a given album at a given time.

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And we're not talking about a particular album.

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Punk had politics, but no mystique.

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Punk had no mystique to it's originators. Punk acquired a mystique before the 80's appeared.

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It's no different than speed metal or hip hop. It started as something small amongst a small group of misfits -in punks case, English prole kids in the '70s with no futures (read jobs)-, got big enough to be noticed by "cool" people and then became a marketing niche.

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Yes, and Joan Jett didn't get into it until that time.

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It's not a religion as much as it's a choice people make to be "different".

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Punk attitudes _reek_ of zealotry.

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I listened to some bands that could be considered punk, and even own a pair of Doc Martens (from a store in London!), but I was in London in the '70s and I saw semnial punks there and feel no kinship with them. I was born and raised in the south and feel more kinship with Elvis or Steve Earle.

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It's obvious you've not hung around with punks for extended periods of time if you don't consider punk a religion.

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Punk these days seems to represent bored American middle class suburban kids trying to be different than the dopers, gangers, soshes (socialites), Phish-heads, and other "different" groups.

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That's the funny thing. In today's society, to be 'mainstream' _is_ to be different. Everybody and their brother is getting ink or piercing something. None of those different groups stops being a group just because they're not like another group. They're all stereotypes. Finding a different stereotype doesn't make one unique.

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I'll bet you're right too. I know she was on the soundtrack to Tank Girl (sadly a failed movie also)

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Hence my point. The original punks would have considered such a thing excommunicable.

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Cover this

Hey, PB never covered an AC/DC song.

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quote:

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
[...] He was awarded Grammys based on work he had done in the past. It's pretty safe to award somebody an award 20 years later and say their work was seminal. My question is- why wasn't he awarded one for an album when it was released? [...]

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Re: Cover this

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Originally posted by Keefer Lucas
Hey, PB never covered an AC/DC song.

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