Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 289

star spangled banner is too difficult to sing .. i think there should be a new song made thats easier to sing .. just think about all those poor souls that have to sing it for various events and just totally screw it all up .. yuck.

We should just come up with a new song .. something that reflects the US today ... maybe we could throw in a reference to the Visor .. that would be cool.

Registered: Dec 1999
Location:
Posts: 239

quote:

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Originally posted by homer
Yea. Right. That's what I'm saying.

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And that's what I'm saying. (Using strong language to agree <sigh> Isn't this fun?)

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Originally posted by homer
Go find it. I'd like to see it. I remember studies where they asked if you believe 'in A god' or 'in a higher being' which is not the same as asking if they believe in god.

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Well, I was going on the assumption that it was. Someone who knows Islam please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't "Allah" an arabic word for the English "God"? I suppose a more accurate way of saying what I was trying to get out is "A majority of Americans believe in a higher power". Really, if we're going to have a good argument here, we really need to disagree on something.

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Originally posted by dietrichbohn
America the state is only hampered by religion, in that its primary duty, the protection of its people and their freedoms is at odds with the idea of a state-sponsored religion or belief in a higher power.

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I don't want to give you impression that I am advocating a state-sponsored religion: I'm not. I like the way I worship and I don't want the government to tell me different, and it's no good having the government agree with me, because I can practically guarantee that 99% of you out there don't worship like I do. It just seems people sometimes confuse "freedom of religion" with "supression of everything but non-religion". Atheists out there are perfectly free to worship (er, not worship) any way they see fit. Why do my rights to worship in such a manner as, oh I dunno, saying a prayer before a baseball game, get supressed because an atheist can sit still for 2 minutes while everyone else has their head bowed and eyes closed? I grew up in an area where practically everyone worshipped in the same manner. We did have one Indian in a high school of over 1,000, and when it was his turn, he prayed Hindu-style while the rest of us bowed our heads and closed our eyes. And I don't know how you can think that a government would be hampered by religion. Granted, I don't know many politicians who live their religion, but that's more to do with human nature, I think, than religion.

quote:

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Originally posted by homer
not loose sight of the fact that we are a democracy

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We're a republic, actually.

Well, work is done, and I have many errands to do. Hopefully this post seems unfinished, because it is. I will try to finish it up later this evening.

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Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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Why do my rights to worship in such a manner as, oh I dunno, saying a prayer before a baseball game, get supressed because an atheist can sit still for 2 minutes while everyone else has their head bowed and eyes closed?

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That's a personal right. You are free to pray when and where you want. That's fine. What people get upset with are things like teaching creationism in school and dedicated prayer times in school. This is forcing a christian viewpoint on society. Not allowing any religion is state issues in not the same a suppressing them...only keeping them seperate.

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And I don't know how you can think that a government would be hampered by religion.

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Uh, take a look at the Taliben.

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Well, work is done, and I have many errands to do. Hopefully this post seems unfinished, because it is. I will try to finish it up later this evening.

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Good...the debate just got warmed up

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Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Elkins Park, Pa
Posts: 577

quote:

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Originally posted by Cerulean
star spangled banner is too difficult to sing .. i think there should be a new song made thats easier to sing .. just think about all those poor souls that have to sing it for various events and just totally screw it all up .. yuck.

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Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Out of my skull, back in five minutes
Posts: 1435

pardon me Bernie.

quote:

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Originally posted by Soul Raven
And I don't know how you can think that a government would be hampered by religion.

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Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 604

I wholeheartedly agree that religious freedom and tolerance are founding, bedrock principles of this country - one of the things that distinguish our country from Afghanistan under the Taliban.

However, that important principle occasionally gets twisted, from freedom of religious practice to freedom from religion. Government, in its zeal to avoid entanglement with religion sometimes comes across as hostile to religion.

That usually well-intentioned motive is sometimes exploited by anti-religious zealots - as frightening in their own way as religions zealots - to try and remove any reference to religion in the public square. Remember when folks jumped all over Bush during the campaign for citing Christ as his favorite philosopher? He could do a lot worse.

A good example is that awful quote from Gloria Steinem someone mentioned earlier. Of course, she used to also say she needed a man like a fish needed a bicycle. Last I heard she got married. I won't be surprised if she has a deathbed conversion on the God issue too.

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Elkins Park, Pa
Posts: 577

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick
pardon me Bernie.

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"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
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Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Out of my skull, back in five minutes
Posts: 1435

Originally posted by ernieba1
Whoa, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be rude or anything,
hey, I just didn't want you getting upset with me for continuing the religion bit.

Originally posted by VTL
Of course, she used to also say she needed a man like a fish needed a bicycle. Last I heard she got married.
Doesn't mean she needed a man, more that she wanted one. And felt it was the right thing to do.
Yes she got married. She also said that " feminism is about the ability to choose what�s right at each time of our lives.�

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/D...inem000906.html

I won't be surprised if she has a deathbed conversion on the God issue too.
I don't see how that follows.

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Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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However, that important principle occasionally gets twisted, from freedom of religious practice to freedom from religion.

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Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Greenwood, IN
Posts: 125

quote:

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Originally posted by homer

I don't know if I would agree with that. I don't think our Gov has ever been hostile towards religion (oh, well, except for the Waco incident...)

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BertBert
Mark 12:28-31

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

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His main argument is that the government's "hostility" toward religion has mainly been in the form of marginalizing it -- by not taking into account the religious beliefs (of all kinds) of its citizens. This is not the overt kind of hostility we saw at Waco (which was again an echo of the government's treatment of Mormons, and of Native Americans for that matter) but is just as hostile. Have you ever been treated like you don't matter? It kind of feels like a blow to the face... and that's Carter's point.

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Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Greenwood, IN
Posts: 125

quote:

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Originally posted by homer
We should obviously learn from everyone's religion, and, when enacting laws, make absolute effort so as to not trounce upon anyone's rights. However, we also must live in a society with laws of some sort. No matter how universal you try to make the laws, it will always conflict with someone's religious beliefs in one form or another.

Basically, the governement can't play favorites. Which it would be doing whenever a God (or any God) is brought into the language of politics.

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BertBert
Mark 12:28-31

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

Ok. Chiming in:

Religion and Government: I think it isn't especially difficult to draw a bright line between the two, and to define government's role and religion's role. But that ain't my discipline, and I ain't going to try and pin it down here.

Anthems: Keep ours. It's admittedly awkward tune is, I think, meaningful. Better than taking on a tune that is also used by other national antherms. It is interesting, however, that it is a song dedicated to a symbol of our country, rather than to the country itself. In fact, I think there are all kinds of interesting things going on with the flag. It's kind of our backup symbol. We sure as hell aren't going to patriotically post pictures of the twin towers. I think that it is fitting that our national anthem is dedicated to a symbol rather than to the nation itself. It focuses attention on the ideas of America rather than just jingoistically saying we're great.

God in Anthem: Damn straight, bertbert, the word "god" is just a word to me. Just a way to swear better. Just sentiment in anthems. To others, it's much more important, and good for them. But their connotations don't make me want to expunge the word.

Jingoism: Yep. I said it. It's coming, it's here.

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Registered: Dec 1999
Location:
Posts: 239

quote:

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Originally posted by homer
Go find it. I'd like to see it. I remember studies where they asked if you believe 'in A god' or 'in a higher being' which is not the same as asking if they believe in god.

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This CodeBlue/Nmida virus has been keeping me busy for the last little while, but I had enough free time to find something

OK, I know I have already stated that I think we were both trying to say the same thing, that most people belived in some higher power, and were not necessarily all Christians (or called themselves Christians). I thought it would be fair, though, to look up some studies:

From USA Today:
http://dunamai.com/survey/surveypreface.htm

OK, 96%, but they only surveyed 604 people? In a country of, what, 300 million? Ack! That's no good.

A lot of stuff on families, a little bit on religion:
http://newfederalism.urban.org/nsaf/adults_d1.html

A little better. Only 59%, but this is attending worship services "a few times a month", not just a belief in a higher power.

And the Gallup website:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr010329.asp

This is the best I could find. I mean, you gotta believe the Gallup people, right? "Belief in God or a universal spirit. This percentage has been very high in the U.S. over the last six decades -- consistently in the mid-90% range." Of course, it continues with: "However, considerably fewer (eight in 10) believe in a personal God, that is, a God who watches over humankind and answers prayers. And even fewer of these believers, six in 10, express complete trust in God." Still, I think it's safe to say that we are a religious, if maybe not specifically 'god-fearing' people (which never made sense to me, isn't God supposed to love us? Of course, I have been scared of my mom, and I am relatively sure she loves me. Oh well).

Another Gallup poll:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/indicators/indreligion.asp

Religion being at least 'fairly important' is consistently in the mid-80's.

OK, more viruses to hunt down. <sigh> You tell people not to open attachments from people they don't know, but do they listen.......

Oh, this had some stuff on religion and the beginnings of the United States. It's a good (if somewhat long) read:
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/

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Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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When it comes to the national anthem and such, I think that those references to God have gotten so far removed from any expression of actual faith in or worship of God that they are now more an expression of sentiment -- like references to Grandma, apple pie, or baseball -- than a declaration of religion. So it seems like those kinds of "messages" are pretty harmless when you take their present-day context into account.

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Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Greenwood, IN
Posts: 125

quote:

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Originally posted by homer
Denying your child the benefit of a blood transfusion based on your religious believes isn't necessarily a good thing. Basically, blindly following ANYTHING (religion or government) isn't a good thing. For a lot of people religion is simply the easy way out. I don't HAVE to think, because my religion thinks for me. That's where things get dangerous...when we don't question these things.

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BertBert
Mark 12:28-31

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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What if the decision to deny your child a blood transfusion WAS a thoroughly thought-out, reasoned decision made in an effort to balance compassion for your child with consistency to a set of beliefs that you believe (by faith, by reason, or a combination) to be true?

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Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Powder Springs, GA
Posts: 4

I like The Star Spangled Banner.

Registered: Aug 2001
Location:
Posts: 383

The song "Proud to be an American"

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Out of my skull, back in five minutes
Posts: 1435

quote:

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Originally posted by Techie2000
The song "Proud to be an American"

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