Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Connecticut USA
Posts: 2682

Having heard so much about the Visor (good and bad), is it wise to buy it now or should one wait for the bugs to be worked out?

I like the features the Visor offers and the price seems reasonable compared to the Palm. Just not sure if I should wait or is this thing really as good as it seems?

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MarkEagle

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 434

My guess is that 9 times out of 10, a heavily taxed Vx will run more stably than a similarly configured Visor. That will probably be true of any Palm III/V vs. a clone. However, the Visor is cheaper and has more potential.

If you are at all concerned about stability and you want one now, then get a Palm. As you must have read on this site, their order system truly is terrible. Otherwise, the Visor is a consideration.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Midland, Texas
Posts: 231

Eug,

I am curious how you know what you are saying is true? Why would the Vx be any more stable?

From my personal experience, my Visor is every bit as stable as my III and IIIx were. (Obviously not Vx, but certainly a Palm)

Using your line of thinking, is a Dell less stable than an IBM?

In case it crosses your mind, please do not construe this as a personal attack, I am asking these questions in all seriousness.

tyler

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Midland, Texas
Posts: 231

Mark,

I recommend to friends all the time to get a Visor, and I would say the same to you. It is a great product at a good price.

One note: I remember reading the _panic_ in the newsgroups over the streaking of the IIIx when they were first released. At that time it was all the rage to talk about 3Com as the ruination of the Palm. Now 3Com is god and Visor is complained about for shipping snafus and a cheap stylus.

The biggest concern I have for my Visor is the slight crakcing on the hard-cover, retention slot on top. It is a true design flaw, but not a performance issue. I have simply switched to the slip case instead of hard case. Not my first choice, but not enough of an issue to prevent me from recommending the Visor as the better product.


tyler

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 434

Did not interpret as a flame - was hoping nobody would ask this question though.

Anyways, it's pure conjecture, but I think it is conjecture that is not unwarranted. (I did say it was a guess, and not a fact.)

The standard OS is still the Palm OS, and it is optimized by Palm Computing for Palm computers. The software out there is optimized to run on Palm OS as written for the Palm computers.

Along comes Handspring, which changes the OS to suit its own Visor, and voila, suddenly software that may have worked previously may not run properly on the Visor. Sure, we can have updated software that will run properly on the Visor, but the bottom line is that most software out there has yet to be optimized for the Visor (if required). So all things being equal, a Palm with the 3.1 OS should (or "may"?) run better than a Visor as of today. It depends on which software you'll want to run too. Furthermore, the current Visor is the first version released. Often the first version is the most buggy.

A Dell WON'T run more stably than an IBM using my line of reasoning, since Windows isn't optimized for either of them. On the other hand, my old Apple clones never ran the same as a true Apple using Apple's OS, but it was pretty damn close. My old AMD's didn't run some software properly that ran with Intel's chips (but I'm still a big fan of AMD).

I'm just saying that one should not expect a Visor to run every piece of software as well as the Palm V, as some seem to be insinuating.

At least a few people on this site who have done comparisons side by side find their V IS more stable, but they may be anomalies, I don't know.

I have no problems with the potential incompatibilities of the Visor - hell, I ordered one. My main concern is their lousy customer service.

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Connecticut USA
Posts: 2682

Heck, I can live with the lousy customer service as long as the product is worth it. I've pretty much settled on the Visor strictly for the cost/features mix.

As for the software, it is my understanding that the Visor version of the OS was only modified to support USB and the Springboard hardware... most, if not all, currently available Palm software "should" work on the Visor except for those that have been optimized for a Palm.

Maybe it would have been easier for me to ask whether I should buy a Ford or a Chevy...

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MarkEagle

Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 82

Tyler,

It is possible that EUG has a very valid point.. Remember the palm OS was also modified to accomadate operation of the springboard modules. I have a V and a
VD and it seems that the V IS more stable when experimenting with various software... especially hacks. Even so, I love my Visor...
and don't mind experimenting because of the backup module...which is excellent.

[This message has been edited by intraman (edited 12-25-1999).]

Registered: Nov 1999
Location:
Posts: 70

Just a curious question...

How can any OS (Handspring's or Palm's) be any _more_ stable than the original if you have *HACKS* installed. Hacks aren't a part of the OS, so if they make it unstable, you can't blame the OS. Now, if there was evidence of instability on an un-hacked OS, that would be different...

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William

Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 35

Based on the current prices versus value. I think a visor is a better option. However, if you can get a Palm IIIx or Vx for about $100 of retail I would go that route for all the reasons people have posted (stability, reliability, etc.)

I paid $149 for my IIIx and I think that was a better deal than a visor.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Midland, Texas
Posts: 231

Eug,

I can see where you are coming from with the optimized bit, but 3Com has the same compatibility issue whenever it makes an OS change, a la 3.3.

OK, my Dell/IBM analogy doesn't apply very well, but the issue isn't really hardware. One could just as easily say that the Handspring OS is optimized for the Visor. The issue is really the OS, correct? (e.g. is 3.1/3.3 or 3.1h more stable?) As Intraman points out, the springboard implimentation coding in the OS must certainly have substantial effects.

As I reflect about this stability issue, I am beginning to think I see where some differ in saying one is more stable than another (of course, as Eug mentions, we all have different configurations so we are not really comparing apples to apples). I have had about the same rate of resets with both the Visor and the IIIx, (I expected them with the Visor due to the modified OS), but the difference between the two is that I only hard reset my Palm III one time in one year, after making a mistake using flashpro (obviously not Palm's fault). I have hard reset my Visor about 8 times in three months due to looping resets. This hasn't seemed like a stability issue to me though, because the looping resets wouldn't happen if I didn't have to reset in the first place. Maybe this is where the rub is. I have called stability the actual number of resets/unit of time, and thus concluded that stability of Visor and Palm were about equal; however, the RESULT of the resets put 3Com ahead of Handspring.

Does this make sense?

As for customer service, I certainly empathize with those that have had trouble (nad certainly there has been PLENTY), but my experiences have been nothing but good. I got my Visor in the time promised, I got the errant tax charges (occurred with all early orders) refunded without hassle, and I got a replacement unit sent out pronto, FedEx, at no charge because my screen contrast was neither as good as my IIIx nor my buddies Visor.

tyler

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Midland, Texas
Posts: 231

Certainly wrp has a point where hacks are concerned. Stability might be the proper word to use, but it certainly cannot be used slanderously. How could Handspring, or anyone else for that matter, code an OS to accommodate programs that intentionally bypass the OS? It would certainly be the hack's responsibility, and not the OS's that instability occurred, because each hack has to be written for each OS.

It would be interesting to know the percentage of code that is different between 3.1 and 3.1h.

tyler

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 434

I love it! Everyone's so damn civil around here, unlike some of the other sites I visit.

tyler, you've had your Visor for 3 months?!?!? I'm very jealous... I don't even have mine yet after waiting 9 weeks.

Assuming I'm following your explanation:

Yes, I would call that decreased stability for the Visor. I think I'd find having to do lots of hard resets quite annoying... That's especially true considering the fact that I made the mistake of not ordering the backup module right up front (and it's too late now for us Canadians to order it).

Palm IIIx --> lockup --> soft reset --> continue --> a bit of data lost.

Visor --> lockup --> soft reset --> still locked up --> hard reset --> run home --> reload software, etc... --> more data lost.

On the other hand, with the Palms that backup module is not even an option.

So, I still really like the idea of the Visor and it's springboard slot, and will still wait (helplessly) for mine to arrive.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Midland, Texas
Posts: 231

Eug,

Now we are on the same page. I certainly cannot dispute the tremendous difference in the number of hard resets I've had to perform. It is the, "go home to reload data," part that is the killer. As I mentioned though, if you don't have to reset you don't even confront the looping issue, and my guess is LOTS of Palm/Visor users never do face a reset. Most of the people I know that have them never get beyond the built-in apps.

>tyler, you've had your Visor for 3 months?!?!? I'm very jealous... I don't even have mine yet after waiting 9 weeks.<

I have enjoyed all three months of it! (I ordered on 9/16 -- day 1 -- and got it 10/22. OOPS, THATS TWO MONTHS! Oh well, maybe all these hard resets have made it feel like three months! ) Don't have yours after 9 weeks?! Ouch! That is bad customer service! Sorry to hear it. I hope they make it right to you.

tyler

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 95

I've had my VDx since late November, and I've had to soft reset my visor about 6 times. Each of those times the problem was easily traced to an application I had just installed to check out. Deleting the offending application solved the problem. Two of them were Hacks (with alternatives which work fine), two were betas (I'll wait for them to become stable), and the other two I only installed on a lark, so it was no big deal to get rid of them.

Registered: Dec 1999
Location:
Posts: 117

EUG:

I agree with your comment about this being a civil discussion group, I have yet to see a major "flame" of anyone, even the fellow knocking the visor and the springboard was treated with respect and civility.

My two cents: I went with the Visor because I have the time to wait for it. My winCe unit is still going strong, I just wanted something lighter and less brutal on batteries. I have no concerns about stability. It is using the PalmOS and I trust it to work. Some people have reported no trouble at all with stability and others seems to crash regularly. I never crashed with my Win/Ce unit. I think that makes me the only one in the country. Truthfully I think it is rather dependant on the apps you add and how skillfully you work with those apps: ie; how many you have runnng at the same time, the memory they consume whiel running, etc. I have a co-worker that crashes his palm IIIx at least once a week.

Mark: Buy now is my advice,if you are certain the Visor is the unit you want.

I dont't play cards or shoot craps, I figure this is my gamble ;-)



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