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Thank God for only 8MB.

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Topic: Thank God for only 8MB.    
dick-richardson
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Apps are getting huge. The only reason for it is because the amount of memory in the PDA's is big enough to accomodate it. Keep an 8MB cap on the amount of memory you put in a device and you limit the size of the apps that can be written for it. If I'm choosing a word processor and I have 8MB total memory I'm going choose one that fits. People seem to think that the app sizes are going to stay the same if they get a 16MB Palm OS device, but the apps are going to get proportionally bigger as well (like a pirhanna in an aquarium). Having 8MB forces software programmers to put as much quality into as little space as possible. 99% of the buyers of handhelds don't want to replace their desktop, and neither do I. These devices have enough memory to specialize in what is needed most while you're away from your desk.

This is just my opinion. Having the edge with 16MB would be overkill for me. Oh, and keep the responses focused. If you aren't intelligent enough to post something other than a flame, your mommy shouldn't have given you a visor to begin with.

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dick-richardson is offline Old Post 03-11-2001 08:36 PM
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lennonhead
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Registered: Mar 2000
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DIE!

Hehe, just kidding of course.

I've watched desktop software grow larger and larger as HD's have, but then again the cost per MB of HD space decreased dramatically too. Unless the internal RAM and the various expansion options (CF, MMC, etc.) dropped in price I wouldn't want the same thing to happen to the handheld market.

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lennonhead is offline Old Post 03-11-2001 09:27 PM
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kalahari
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quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
Apps are getting huge. ... This is just my opinion. Having the edge with 16MB would be overkill for me. Oh, and keep the responses focused. ...

I agree that apps are getting large. Restricting a Palm device to 8MB is not going to make software developers keep their apps small though. "...keep responses focused ..."??? No comment.

BTW, Tony Rudenko has a Prism of mine right now so I should have my 16MB Prism next week. RAM is like color, resolution and speed --- some of us just want more and more...

kalahari is offline Old Post 03-12-2001 12:45 AM
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j762538
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True, but I would buy a 16Meg Visor (or have Tony upgrade) due to the large NUMBER of excellent apps.

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j762538 is offline Old Post 03-12-2001 01:25 AM
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dick-richardson
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quote:
Originally posted by kalahari
...keep responses focused ..."??? No comment.


Okay, let's rephrase that. If you post, say something meaningful. Don't just call me an idiot, explain why. How's that?

And I think that the 8MB limit is keeping apps smaller. If everyone had 16MB or 32MB devices, programmers wouldn't worry nearly as much about size. You wouldn't download a 6MB program with an 8MB device would you? How about with a 16MB device? 32? If programmers have 6MB to work with to make a program you are going to have a 6MB program. Give them 10MB to make a program and you are going to have a 10MB program. They're not going to spend the time and effort to make it smaller if they don't have to, and the more memory the visors (or Palms, etc.) have the less they're going to have to. It's just easier to write a program with x number of features if you have a lot of space to work with.

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Last edited by dick-richardson on 03-12-2001 at 04:40 AM

dick-richardson is offline Old Post 03-12-2001 04:25 AM
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Ash
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Registered: Mar 2000
Location: Roseville, MN, USA
Posts: 161

I currently have a Visor Deluxe with 8 Megs plus an Innopak 2/V. I'm considering buying an Edge but I've gotten used to having 10 megs of ram and I wouldn't like the downgrade (if I buy an Edge I'd probably sell the Innopak even though I'll miss the vibrating alarm). I'm still undecided on the Edge v. m500 series question.

If you want to hold a number of .doc files and a dictionary and avantgo and various tealinfo files, 10 megs disappears quickly.

I don't think that apps will get bigger if 16 meg devices are available. There are still a lot of 2 meg devices out there, and I haven't seen any single app that takes up a significant chunk of the 10 megs I have now.

Ash is offline Old Post 03-12-2001 04:58 AM
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purplemd
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Cool

One of the reasons I really like the PalmOS is because the programs are so streamlined. PocketPC touts the amount of RAM their machines have but the programs are so large you don't see much of the benefit.

I am still amazed by applications such as spreadsheets which can run on my Visor with 200 kb or less while Excel costs $340 and is obese!

purplemd is offline Old Post 03-12-2001 05:02 AM
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Confused
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quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson


Okay, let's rephrase that. If you post, say something meaningful. Don't just call me an idiot, explain why. How's that?

And I think that the 8MB limit is keeping apps smaller




Now ... before others take you literally and explain why they think that you are an idiot


I agree with every point that you have made save one ... surely they could have treated the extra 8 megs of ram as data storage space only. I too hate code bloat without substantive functionality; but I want as much data with me and accessable as possible at all times with minimum fuss to get at it!

Keep the application code within the 8 megs but adding another 8 megs for those of us who want it all with us would be a nice twist

Confused is offline Old Post 03-12-2001 06:11 AM
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dick-richardson
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quote:
Originally posted by Confused
Now ... before others take you literally and explain why they think that you are an idiot

That's great! I'll be laughing at that one for a while.

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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

dick-richardson is offline Old Post 03-12-2001 07:47 AM
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dick-richardson
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Ash � I agree they can raise the base memory to 16MB if there is a strong 2MB base. But if we jump up to 16MB I don't think we'll be seing many 2MB units anymore.

Confused � Good idea. But then we're running into the CE's problem. They have these amazingly fast processor for units as small as they are and they're still slower than a Palm. A large part of it is because a lot of that processing power goes to loading information into active RAM. Everything is already in the active RAM with the Palm OS. It'd be better if they go to 16MB that it all goes to RAM if only to keep the speed edge up.

These puns get to be something else.

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dick-richardson is offline Old Post 03-12-2001 08:02 AM
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Morris
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The only reason I can see needing more than 8MB RAM is for eyemodule2-style "movies" or other application-driven data. Agreed that apps are getting larger, but I'm also more and more impressed at the quality of the apps. WordSmith is an excellent example.

Morris is offline Old Post 03-12-2001 02:33 PM
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Coyote67
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While I agree with your basic idea, keeping apps small and the code tight, I totally disagree with you on the size issue. I'll give you an example. On my machine, I have a 75 gig hdd, on my laptop I have a 8 gig hdd. Programmers how to take to account that there are many different machines out there who's hdds are different sizes. If you make an office suite that takes up 20 gigs, no one is going to buy it. Tight programs have nothing to do with the amount of space available. No one is going to make Wordsmith a 8 meg prog when there are people out there who wouldn't be able to use it because their palm only has 8 or 2 megs. If they want to even consider making any money, they have to make it backwards compatible. The only thing the extra space would do, is give the developers a chance to add more functionality, and thats not bad, right? Say you get the option of installing Wordsmith normal, or maybe normal and tons of extra fonts. With more space, you just give more options, doesn't mean you'll see overbloaded M$ style apps. Gotta remember that not everyone runs to amazon as soon as a new pda comes out.

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Coyote67 is offline Old Post 03-12-2001 03:00 PM
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yardie
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Arrow I agree 100%

Dick:

I agree with you 100%. I notice that apps have been getting marger and larger since 8 MB Palm OS units came out. I wouldn't be surprise to see apps over 1 MB when 16 MB units come out. There are already apps that are about 400_K (Datebook4 comes to mind). That is just too big! The average Palm OS app used to be about 50K each.

Another Issue: Developers should make color apps different from Black and White apps. Some developers are too lazy and make one app that supports both color and black & White. Black and White apps tend to be smaller -- why don't they make one black/white and a color version?

yardie is offline Old Post 03-12-2001 03:15 PM
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ss@rr
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Lightbulb

Just a thought...

For those that *want* bloat on their hands, get a wireless connection and run the apps off a server someplace.

Slow you say? You *did* want bloat, right?

I pretty well agree; keep it tight, that's why I got the PDA (VDX Blue!) in the 1st place. And we are already seeing app bloat. Word processing with fonts, etc. etc??? Need Afterburner just to open the darn app in a reasonable time. I can get to a desktop by the time I get a couple of paragraphs done. Nothing wrong with readers of Word docs, Excel etc. for those that need that type of thing; or stick to the notebook/pad computers. BTW, I have Quicksheet and *love* the app. Fast enough, not too big. Great for checkbook, whatever, then I load everything over to Excel for reports, permanent filing, etc. I just keep most used/recent data on the Visor and hold down the data file size that way.

In fact, being a little cautious, I download nifty (functional and tight - tight doesn't necessarily mean small) apps I *might* want sometime. Easier to find, and just in case they disappear later. (Been through this on the desktop too much. Anyone remember 640K, 4 MHz and a whopping 360K FDD? Sorry, drifting a little.)

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ss@rr is offline Old Post 03-12-2001 03:50 PM
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Cerulean
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unnecessary bloat = bad, added features = good ..

unfortunately I don't think u can have one without the other ... As the PDA becomes more popular, people will be demanding more features -- with more features comes longer development cycles .. however, with more popularity and more demand, programmers need to get their products to market faster than the competition... in that regard, they will want to speed up development time (read: use rapid application development (RAD) tools) and will ultimately sacrifice size/run time speed for features to meet their deadlines ..

Why? Simple .. the end user wants new features TODAY.. as long as the feature works and its there first, thats all that matters ..

So you can complain all you want, but the simple fact si Palm/Handspring will come out with new hardware to increase sales, more sales = more customers which = more demand for applications = more demand for a wider variety of features = more work for programmers = use of RAD development tools = shorter development times = requested features + bloat.

let me know what u think.

Joe

Cerulean is offline Old Post 03-12-2001 05:42 PM
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bradhaak
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Exclamation

I kind of agree with the original post. Apps are getting very large. I'm a developer and the programs that I am currently working on are all in the 150 - 250 KB footprint range. I think that this is hilarious since I started out writing BIOS code where everything had to fit in 32K. If more features were needed, something else had to come out.

After I first looked at this thread last night, I went off to do some thinking. This has led me to a number of conclusions about the state of Palm software and PDA use in general.

When Jeff Hawkins first came up with the concept of the Pilot, he envisioned it as a device that would be used in conjunction with a desktop PC. Any complex processing or intensive input would be done on the PC. An example of this type of thought is the Expense program that still comes with most new devices. It doesn't even provide any kind of totaling or reporting. These are tasks that are left to the desktop computer. Another example is the type of games that came out initially. Look at landmines, or sub-hunt. Neither had any kind of AI. they are just mechanical processes that you interact with. Not much processor or memory required. That's a good thing since the first Palm device that I owned had a whopping 128KB of memory.

Today, things have changed. My Prism has a 33 Mhz processor, much faster memory access, 8 MB of RAM (64 times as much as my first Pilot 1000), and expansion so that I can store even more programs and data. If you look at it from a desktop perspective, in all aspects except screen resolution, a Prism compares very favorably with a Macintosh 2 of ten or twelve years ago (except that it has more memory). On similar computers (I used PCs, even though I work at Apple now), we played fairly advanced games, did word-processing and desktop publishing, and used complex mathematical software.

Today, as the Palm OS computer (call it a computer since that is really what it is), has moved into the mainstream, the things that we do with it have become much more complex. We expect the software that we use to be comparable to what we use on "real" computers. People want word-processors like WordSmith and complain that they don't handle tables, There are real spreadsheets with graphing. Games are complex, graphics intensive simulations with complex AI features. We can print. We have 65536 colors (more colors than pixels on the screen).

As many people have observed, the former organizer is the future computer. We are seeing the beginning of this change and things will continue to move that way. Even the manufacturers are helping it along. When PalmOS v4 comes out in a couple of months, it will provide a standard set of APIs to allow programmers to directly access add-on storage for program data (sounds kind of like a hard-disk doesn't it?). When PalmOS v5 comes out in a year-and-a-half, it will include a multitasking, multithreading kernel and higher resolution. The devices that it runs on will use StrongArm processors and there is no reason to believe that they won't be as much as ten-times as fast as the Prism. I hate to tell you this, but you don't need this in an organizer. This is quickly moving towards a desktop replacement.

Sorry for getting long-winded, but that's what you get for making me think. I know I haven't really said anything new, it's mostly just distilling a whole bunch of information and history. If you disagree, that's great. Let's get a good discussion going with lots of raised voices and name calling. We need something like that since the election ruckus is finally settling down.

bradhaak is offline Old Post 03-12-2001 06:27 PM
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Cerulean
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brad -- well put .. i mean its simple -- computing either gets smaller or more powerful .. now that computers are considered more than powerful enough for basic every day applications, they will just get smaller and smaller .. so then these smaller, less power hungry chips will find their way into PDAs and eventually everyone will be running around (kinda like with their cell phones) and using them for everything and anything ..

I am awaiting for the 10Ghz model that will allow voice dictation, instant language translation (that would be really neato..), high speed wireless access, etc..etc..etc..

Joe

Cerulean is offline Old Post 03-12-2001 11:47 PM
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manielse
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Brad, though I see your points on the future versions of the Palm OS, it really is the Fortune 500 companies that are driving this direction.

In your post you mentioned, "I hate to tell you this, but you don't need this in an organizer. This is quickly moving towards a desktop replacement." That is exactly what companies need to see in order to justify the cost and support of these devices. There are many sales people, production workers and even managers who really will no longer need a "PC" in the traditional sense. If they can do everything they need on a PDA that cost under $400 (plus support), then the company saves money.

OS4 is really the answer to the memory issue. If the OS gets developed the way it is intended, having "true removable storage" instead of Flash memory modules will be the answer to the more memory prayers. Flash is good, but most programs just don't like it because it needs to rewrite info (games are perfect examples).

Multitasking/threading was an obvious evolution. If you think about it, wouldn't be nice to be able to use two programs at a time? Also many Handspring user would love to be able to use two Springboard modules at the same time, this will make that possible! Think how nice it will be when you can have your VisorPhone and GPS (MP3, Pager, Flash, whatever)running at the same time in the car. Of course a new expansion module would need to be designed to do this. Let's face it, just when something new comes out the consumer always want more.

Now back to the memory discussion: 16MB Visors will come soon. For all of us with Prisms, they will need to add more MBs to justify making the next move. Our color screens surpass the needs of any program in today's market. Unless a 16MB color Visor comes out, I don't plan on upgrading until the OS level is too far behind or something else changes that is major.

Just my 2 cents...

Mark

manielse is offline Old Post 03-14-2001 11:59 AM
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bradhaak
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Wink

Hi Mark,

I really don't see the Fortune 500 companies as the ones driving application size and complexity. I see it as the PalmOS 10,000,000 users. People get used to a feature set on the desktop and then expect it on the handheld. All that the manufacturers and developers are doing is giving people what they want. If these features are not what the people want, the product fails (See Windows CE v1 and v2).

In the past I have complained about the size of some of the newer apps on my Prism (even though I am writing a couple of big ones myself), but when I look at the sizes of what I have installed, there are currently six programs that are larger than 128KB (the size of the the original Pilot). BTW, these are some of the programs that I use the most. Add to that the four novels that I current have installed ( the smallest is about 400KB), and I can see that I like big functional programs and lots of data (I'm so ashamed).

My use of this software has nothing to do with corporate pressures in the marketplace. It has everything to do with maximum functionality for the tasks that I want to accomplish.

Admittedly, I am not a normal user (or even normal). My current list of devices that I may pick up and use on specific day include a Palm IIIXE, Palm VX, Palm M100, Palm M105, Palm VIIX, Sony Clie, blue Visor Deluxe, Prism, Platinum, Compaq IPAQ, Jornada 545, Jornada 720, or a Casio E-125. My Edge hasn't shown up yet and I can't wait to order my Palm M505. I also buy a huge amount of software. You know, reading this list I think that I may have to cut back and not buy any more PDAs for the rest of the week. Anyway, my point here is that my usage may be a little bit out on the leading edge, but maybe that just makes it easier to spot a trend.

BTW, just in case you are interested, all of my PDAs have unique user names and are all synchronized.

bradhaak is offline Old Post 03-14-2001 07:30 PM
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