Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 110

I'm back from Clie Land

I confess: I dallied with a Clie n760c. When Dell offered it for $365 delivered, I couldn't resist temptation. I'm back to my faithful Prism now, but it was a very, very close call.

Why did I decide to try out the Clie? Simple: the screen. Why did I decide to stay with the Prism? It's the screen, stupid. After putting the Clie through its paces for several days under a variety of conditions, I was surprised at my conclusion: unless use in direct sunlight is very important to you, the Prism screen is better. Here are my conclusions.

Images: I tested the two units side-by-side using the same six images (at 160x160 on the Prism using Splashphoto and 320x320 on the Clie using Picture Gear). It's probably no surprise to anyone here that reflective screens (like the Clies and the m505) are not as vivid as the Prism's backlit screen. But I was surprised at just how big the difference was. I tried the units in a number of situtations, including two where I thought the Clie would fare best: direct sunlight and darkness. In all conditions except direct sunlight, the Prism had better contrast and much better color saturation. The sunlight test, by the way, was performed with the Clie in one hand in direct sunlight and the Prism in the other in a patch of shade. The Prism images were much more pleasing, even in these conditions. To be sure, the Clie has higher resolution, but because of the low contrast and color saturation I noticed only a small improvement in image sharpness, and even that in only about half of the test images. If images are important - and I've got about 50 family pics on my Prism already - the Prism screen is still the one to beat.

Text: I was very surprised at this. The Clie offers high resolution fonts, showing none of the pixellation you see on the standard 160x160 screens, including the Prism. But the contrast is a problem here just as with images. I'd say it's a tossup - excellent sharpness on the Clie, excellent contrast on the Prism. The Clie supposedly enhances the resolution of text even on non-built-in applications through a feature called High Res Assist. I didn't see much if any improvement with my Doc reader, CSpotRun, although I gather there are some other doc readers that may take more advantage of the high resolution fonts. OTOH, I suspect that extended reading on the Clie would be at least a bit easier on the eyes. I read Uncle Tom's Cabin - the whole thing - on my Prism a few months back, and my eyes felt it. Reflective screens seem more like paper in this regard, although I'm not exactly sure why.

The best way I can think of to describe the Clie screen is this: it's like looking through fog. You can see everything, and it's sharp, but the fog fades it all out. And I just can't give up my vivid images and high contrast text.

Don't get me wrong, though. There were some things I very much like about the Clie.

Size: Okay, maybe it's not as thin as the m505, but it still makes my Prism feel like a brick. I could slip it into my pocket without worrying about getting stopped by security guards. Is there any reason the Prism couldn't be made a lot thinner if Handspring would just dump that stupid Springboard slot? Which bring us to:

Expansion options: I have an 8mb flash module. It's the only module I can imagine needing or wanting. None of the other hardware modules are even slightly compelling to me, but I do need extra memory. (Gotta put those images and e-books somewhere what with 4mb of AvantGo files sucking up my main RAM!) And I suspect that memory is far and away the most commonly used expansion module. Now, I had heard rumors that Memory Stick (and SD, for that matter) cards were awkward and slow - perhaps as bad as using CF and SM cards through a Springboard adapter. But I found the 8mb memory stick included with the Clie to be very easy to use - and let me tell you, I'm no technology genius - and quite fast. I noticed no lag at all when accessing 200kb images from the memory stick. Add to this that it's much cheaper and more compact than flash and I think you have a winner. It also has some added utility: although I didn't experiment with it, you can copy non-Palm files onto a memory stick (even without a hotsync) and then copy them into another PC. This would eliminate a major headache for me - I now need to burn a CD- R to bring a large file (like, say, updated Quicken files) to my office PC. Even I, Joe Average User, can see that Handspring seriously needs a new strategy on expansion, especially given the impact of a springboard slot on device size.

The cradle: Although it's not mentioned by many reviewers, the power cord unplugs from the Clie cradle, and the plug prongs fold down. Voila - a free travel charger. I had to pay $29 on eBay for a used travel charger for my Prism. Handspring, why was this solution not obvious to you?

But, but, but . . . it's the screen, stupid. I just can't give up my beautiful Prism screen. So Jeff and Donna, how about a high resolution, but still backlit, screen for the Visor - um - Spectrum? I promise not to use it outside.

Not that I'm optimistic that there will ever be such a creature. I tend to agree with the folks who think HS is focused on cell phones. Seems like a risky strategy to me. HS is no Nokia. But what do I know?

What I know is that the color Treo - "coming some day in 2002!" - claims to have a "high visibility color screen." Sounds like a reflective screen to me. Labelling a cell phone screen that can't be viewed in sunlight as "high visibility" would be a bit misleading. If HS is focusing on a reflective screen for the Treo, I figure they're doing the same for any new color Visor. Assuming they're even working on a new color Visor.

Looks like we'll be seeing the future through the fog. Sigh. <end of rant>

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Spring Lake Park, MN (45min from minneapolis)
Posts: 313

wow, good post! exept i wonder sometimes if you either have gotten a very bad clie, or a really good prism. and arent the colors on the prism kinda bright? i mean very bright, i like deep colors, but with a backlite screen couldnt cause deeper shades to look brighter? i mean the clies screen to me doesnt seem to be AS awful as you say it is, i guess ill need to build up some courage to ask a store associate to look at both handhelds together. i just dont like them looking at me and thinking in their head, " whats that kid looking at these for?, probably just to play games..."

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Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 110

BTW, your avatar is the sample image on the 710. (The 760 uses a different test image - two kids at the beach, which is more forgiving of the reflective screen's limitations.) I've seen it on the 710, and I can guarantee it's not anywhere near as vibrant as in your avatar.

Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 110

And keep in mind I'm not really knocking the Clie. All reflective screens that I've seen have these limitations. The m505 screen, for example, is IMHO much worse than the Clie, primarily because it has a weaker sidelight.

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Spring Lake Park, MN (45min from minneapolis)
Posts: 313

yea, side lights....and i know you werent against clies in particular, could you post a link to that new image of the kids at the beach? iv been at the sony site and only saw the balloon and glass and fruit pictures.

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"Few women admit their age. Few men act theirs."
"The sum of the intelligence on the planet is constant, but the population is increasing"
"I am not a vegetarian because i love animals; I am a vegetarian because I hate plants.-- A. Whitney Brown"

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 200

My only comment is that compact flash is actually much cheaper than memory sticks; the cheapest 128MB memory sticks are around $100, but only $50-60 for a similar-sized compact flash (not including the price of a cf springboard adapter).

Robert, I haven't been following your posts, but if you're concerned about the screens, the best thing to do is to go see the PDAs yourself. Other people's descriptions and even photographs won't do true justice. Or, you could order both PDAs from a place with a good return policy, although you'd be out some money for shipping costs.

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 334

quote:

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The cradle: Although it's not mentioned by many reviewers, the power cord unplugs from the Clie cradle, and the plug prongs fold down. Voila - a free travel charger. I had to pay $29 on eBay for a used travel charger for my Prism. Handspring, why was this solution not obvious to you?

---

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Rick

www.visorsolutions.com

Registered: Feb 2000
Location: SW Virginia
Posts: 290

quote:

---

Originally posted by gadgetguru
The Handera (TRG) has been around for a lot longer
than the Visors. The older ones used CF only for memory.

---

Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 110

Robert - near as I can tell, the new sample photo isn't anywhere on the Sony site. It's just two kids playing in the water. The Sony 760 site uses the fruit, and WOW is it vivid on that site! If only it looked that way on the Clie. And I agree with Dalamar - no picture or review is going to answer the question for you, because everyone has different demands of their screen. The only way you can tell for sure is to compare the two units side-by-side for yourself. And I couldn't even make the cut in the store. I had to get the Clie and compare them for a couple days!

Dalamar - agreed that CF is cheaper per mb once you get into the large sizes, but I only needed 8mb and am still using only that. (Rick - Whoa! a 64 mb card! What do you put on it? MP3s?) At this range, an 8mb CF plus the adapter puts it far above the MS price.

Rick - I didn't mean to say that the SB was a bad idea to start with. My 8mb flash module sure is handy - very little of the file handling hassles that other memory expansion approaches seem to have. But those hassles seem to be disappearing. Even in my very brief sojourn in Clie land, I found two doc reader/managers (Handstory and iSilo) that are very user friendly when it comes to the MS, and both are high-resolution. Nice. And certainly the Clie's PGPocket image viewer handles the MS very well. And I keep hearing that solutions have been worked out for Palm's SD cards as well. Given the size and cost advantages of of MS/SD cards, I'd say they're going to win, and sooner rather than later. The Edge and the Treo suggest that even HS recognizes that it can't sell a truly innovative unit with an SB slot - it's just plain too big.

BTW, I played around with the Clie's MP3 capabilities last night (until wayyyyy too late in the AM) for the first time. Never used an MP3 player before, and it's very cool. I may have to get me one of those Springboard MP3 players after all, Rick. And HEY! You can get music off the web! FOR FREE! Who knew?!!!

Potter - a new Veggie Tales avatar! Neat!

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Spring Lake Park, MN (45min from minneapolis)
Posts: 313

yay! i just went to bestbuy yesturday to look at their BIG collection of pda's. i was saddend that there wasnt any picture software in the clie, and since its locked up in a metal case, i cant beam anything to it. i was also looking at the ipaq, it seems much, much brighter, and much louder. if i saw right, bestbuy was haveing a $50 rebate on the 710 clie, if i saw right, i will be getting that! but still, its a big desicion to buy another pda for 500 dollars.

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"Few women admit their age. Few men act theirs."
"The sum of the intelligence on the planet is constant, but the population is increasing"
"I am not a vegetarian because i love animals; I am a vegetarian because I hate plants.-- A. Whitney Brown"

Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 231

Boy it's been a long time since I've posted!

I went to Best Buy today and spent an hour or so checking out the Prism, the Cli�, and the M505 (mostly the Cli� and the Prism). I first went to PalmGear.com to get Zap2016 to beam them to their display units, which were not in a glass case but bolted down with the IR's exposed. I also took a couple of AlbumToGo color photos with me.

I first beamed AlbumToGo and a few photos. It didn't work I guess because the version I had was not colorized. The program itself ran on the Prism, but it displayed no photos. The Cli� liked it even less and crashed.

Next was Zap2016 on the Prism. WOW! That was the only word that could describe what was on the screen. I've heard that this game on th Prism was great but I had not imagined this level of greatness. The colors were saturated and bright and gameplay was smoothand fast. This alone sold me.

Sad to say that with the Cli� I was disappointed. It could not match the Prism in terms of brightness and saturation and the off-white background on Apps just didn't come close to the whiteness on th Prism, even with the brightness reduced. The results I got while playing Zap2016 were equally disappointing--bland colors and dullness. Worst of all the gameplay was SLOW! The speed on medium on the Prism (and on my Deluxe) was faster than on the Cli� on fast. I thought it may have something to do with the Cli� being in Hi-Res mode so I made sure Hi-Res mode was not enabled. It still played slowly. I could not understand this. Don't they both have the same processors? Can someone explain this?

I know that most buyers of the Cli� don't buy it as a gaming machine, but this would concern me if I was interested in the Cli� as I do play an occasional game.

I went in looking to see what all the hoopla was over the competition but wanting to stay with HS since I am already invested in SB's-- InnoPak, Minstrel, and MiniJam. After seeing the devices side by side I'm going to start saving for a Prism.

BTW-The Cli� unit I looked at had the picture of the kids on the beach. Boy was it ever sharp! But the color saturation and brightness just weren't there.

I'll also be going back with the colorized version of AlbumTo Go.

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Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 110

Swendor - I also beamed stuff into the bolted down Clie at BestBuy. It crashed until I used BeamBox. You have to beam BeamBox to it first, then activate Beam Box on the beaming unit and through that send your app and data. That's how I finally got SplashPhoto (which, for reasons I can't understand, really is MUCH better than AlbumToGo on the Prism - it's the first piece of shareware I've ever purchased) into the Clie at BestBuy.

Robert - was it really your impression that the IPAQ was brighter than the Clie? I hadn't heard that. I would avoid the Clie 710 unless you're willing to risk frying the unit by upgrading it to OS 4 (an unauthorized upgrade). Without that, it has only an 8-bit color screen.

Anybody want a very slightly used Clie 760?

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 200

Ah, Robert ends up in Best Buy hell, where everything is bolted down, half the units don't have batteries, and no software is installed on the darn things. If you can, try to be like swendor and bring some stuff with you to beam to the PDAs. The other problem with most retail stores is getting the PDAs outside, to see what they look like under real sunlight.

I am mostly indoors, but sometimes outdoors, so I went with the Clie 610. I also like the smaller size and the hi-res display. But it all depends on what you want or need, and I can see how the Prism is also an attractive option (and cheaper). I personally didn't like the m505 much, and it's also the most expensive one. And I honestly couldn't figure out the PPC machines (Jornada 548 and iPaq something).

The SoundsGood module is very nice, if you can still find one. My only complaint is that it's not that good as a standalone player with the little battery pack, since there's no display.

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posts: 35

I think the original comment about the springboard is true waists space and in my opinion its only purpose is to make up for a design flaw... not putting enough base memory in the Visor.

I think it's also true that lots of companies came forward to make something for it... but how many make money doing it? They all to frequently make something that is only half of what you get if you just buy the stand alone hardware (MP3 player, digital cams, etc).

The most purchased add on would be memory, and that is simply because they didn't put enough in the base system. There is a few people that love to buy gimzos and pride themselves on the toys they own, but realistically that springboard crowd isn't as lucrative as those developers need (It costs tens of thousands of dollars just to make the mold for the plastic?!?)

Handspring needs to have a different reason to buy their hardware other than that port. Sure I use the port, but I'm in the crowd that only uses it for memory.. modem might be fun but I'm always near a PC of some sort for real web browsing.

The selling point for me was the screen. I admit I've thought about jumping over to the Clie just for the higher res screen, but its not evenly lit so the graphic demos I show in meetings will look less than they should. But the res is higher and that will help me... so it balances out. And because it balances out there is no point for me to jump over to it cause it will cost me a few hundred to do it (have to buy a new stowaway- wouldn't it be nice if you could buy a new adapter to screw into that space on the keyboard for $15 instead of buying a whole new keyboard ) :-)

I would like them to keep the springboards on some of their product line because there is a significant number of people that buy the visor because of the possiblity to expand even if most don't, the concept is definately one of the bullet points to factor into the buying decision. I'd rather get to a color edge that has 32 megs installed. (Yes I need that much memory for animations and other images I use at work) The modem and camera would be a nice cool thing to have just for the purpose of emailing an image on the spot, but reality is, I hate the poor quality of those cams, and I could just as easily take a digi-cam pic and email from a nearby pc... my god how rare it is to not be near a pc these days... if you are, then you're also too far away from a phone line to send an eyemodule pic. EM2 is really novelty (not good enough to be better than a bad film cam or disposable film cam, and not good enough to take nice pics... and yes "novelty" does have a value... but it's not valued by many people as "needed".

Not to say that there aren't freak situations that warrant it like the email HS sent out a couple weeks ago of the lady that worked at the toy store chain that took pics of other stores and uploaded them to the main office... tho it said something like "I took the pic and 30 min later they had it" my god that is a long time to take a pic and upload... but at least she had that option without lugging a laptop. So for a few people its all good but most people don't buy the spring board modules.

I've no hidden agendas in my message to get people to buy one thing or the other. I've no loyalties to any company. Nobody pays me to like something... I like something for it's value as purchased. If something that offers more value as purchased comes along I won't hesitate to jump on that other brand.... My loyalty is to what every serves me best. Today its the Prism, but soon as something 1/3 the thickness comes out with 32 megs on it I'm gone soon as financial priorities permit. :-)

James

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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Reflective screens seem more like paper in this regard, although I'm not exactly sure why.

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Probably because paper is reflective.

I agree about the springboard, too. It's a great idea on paper, but, in reality, it just isn't THAT compelling for most PDA owners. Most people that purchase a Palm PDA want just that...a PDA. While I've thought that a lot of the springboards were 'neat' the only one I actually found a real use for was the 8mb memory.

The one exception I could see is industrial/corporate add-ons (as opposed to consumer ad-ons). I think the springboard could have much more potential as very specific industries find that they can add devices to the base Palm OS unit to make it a very specialized device. That said, I haven't seen a whole lot about it.

Plus, let's not forget that Handspring is now making their own devices without the springboard slot.

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Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Spring Lake Park, MN (45min from minneapolis)
Posts: 313

in in my opinion, the ipaq did seem brighter and louder compared to the sony clie's.

and they sony 710 is not really availble to purchase, the 760 is, which has OS 4.0 AND 16 bit color! im just about to install zap 2016, (crossing my fingers)

__________________
"Few women admit their age. Few men act theirs."
"The sum of the intelligence on the planet is constant, but the population is increasing"
"I am not a vegetarian because i love animals; I am a vegetarian because I hate plants.-- A. Whitney Brown"

Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 15

When the Prism went to $299, I replaced my VDX. Now, my wife want color, too (copycat!).

I was going to go Sony and give her the prism, but after reading all the stuff on these boards, I might just buy another HS...yeah, it's a brick, but I got used to it. I'd like the higher resolution of the Sony, but after owning a lot of their consumer electronics, I question their customer service.

And, what's this about paying for OS upgrades? That really surprises me...

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Silicon Valley, California
Posts: 173

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kintama
I think the original comment about the springboard is true waists space and in my opinion its only purpose is to make up for a design flaw... not putting enough base memory in the Visor.

The most purchased add on would be memory, and that is simply because they didn't put enough in the base system. There is a few people that love to buy gimzos and pride themselves on the toys they own, but realistically that springboard crowd isn't as lucrative as those developers need (It costs tens of thousands of dollars just to make the mold for the plastic?!?)

---

Registered: Nov 2001
Location:
Posts: 4

a different situation

my situation is slightly different ... since i dont come from the states, handspring does not actually have efficient tech support here in the philippines -- yes we do have support, but it takes long -- so why didnt i buy palm? i stuck to visor all the way. i started with a visor deluxe and upgraded to a prism... and get this: since handspring is not yet in the philippines officially, modules are hard to find and visor PDA's have to be ordered. they take weeks! i ordered an 8mb flash module and it took the store 5 months to process!!!! its easier to order online.

back here, handspring is the underdog -- almost everyone use Palm. a smaller few use the clie. but why did i stick to the prism? ITS THE BEAUTIFUL SCREEN!!! in spite of the hard-to-find modules and the not so efficient support, i stuck with prism because of the beautiful contrast -- when you're an astigmatic, contrast and brightness matters. i looked at the m505 screen and compared it to the prism. in spite of the color screen of the 505, it was still "LCD like" and thus blurry. the prism was like viewing stuff from an active matrix monitor

handspring forever! i just hope tech support comes one day. the only reason why us filipinos dont buy visors is due to the almost non-presence of tech support, compared to Palm, which has a service center in the heart of the commercial capital

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jayvee fernandez
Development Educator
Philippines

Last edited by josemavicente on 11-04-2001 at 02:37 AM

Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Macau
Posts: 52

I have also found the springboard modules to be very useful for back-up, for keeping data bases and books for traveling, and to allow me to access the internet and leave my computer behind. I started with the deluxe because of the cheaper price, but after seeing a friend's new Clie, I decided I had to move up to color. I stuck with the Prism because of my springboard modules, but after seeing my friend's Clie again yesterday and today, I am glad I have the Prism! The color screen is wonderful! And the picture quality that I am getting with Splashphoto is so much better than on my friend's clie. I was really surprised. I also keep my Prism in my purse or briefcase if I am carrying one, so size doesn't matter much. Luckily in Macau it is only a short trip to Hong Kong where modules, if not necessarily support, are available!

By the way, Josemavicente, I am another development educator.