Discussion > Other Areas of Interest > All Handhelds > Did Palm learn anything from Sony's S500c mistake?
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By: mikedemo @ 09:08 PM
Ok ok I've taken the high road on this.
Some one said ITHO to stop complaining about the 505 until you've had it under real world conditions. Which was saying take test drive, before judging it. Ok fair is fair. So that's what did yesterday (You can tell I don't have a wife yet 
)
After one day with it so far I can't see how you can replace your Prism with this thing.
As I've said before, the Palm M505 form factor is the best around. I am totally in love with this wallet sized PDA shape (are listening Handspring 
). The ability to sync directly to the internal 8MB or my ($80)64MB MMC card also is a big plus, especially if you want to put alot of photos or big files on your Palm device. A good many apps can run on the card as well. Though I did find a good many that didn't work too.
Well that's it for the nice stuff . . . now the ugly stuff.
The screen is the number one reason to stay away from the M505. Unless you plan to be right under stadium lights (actually bright light situations) or outside a lot, you will be very disappointed with it. Probably more than the performance of your Prism outside. Many times I couldn't even see color on this M505. I tried reading Avantgo on the train and the screen looked more like a monochrome display, and with the side light on it just wasn't bright enough. $449 for this? By the way. . . even though the light is dim, it doesn't save much power. I've used my Prism longer with reading Avantgo and listening to my SoundsGood Audioplayer in the device at the same time (with the music cranked) and have used less power.
Here's a list IMHO 
to help you decided whether to buy a M505 or a Prism.
Performance
Processor speed - M505/Prism
Hotsync speed - M505/Prism
Best Form Factor
Fits in Pocket - M505
Weight - M505
Initial wow factor to others - M505
$80 gets me how much ram?
M505 - 64MB MMC card (sync directly to without a special app)
VDX/Plat/Prism - 8 MB Flash module SB 
Screen Performance
None to Low Light - Prism
Medium Lighting(average room) - Prism
Bright Lighting (indoors) - M505/Prism
Very Bright (outdoors) - M505
Screen cover - M505
Color quality - Prism!!!!
Alarms
The built in vibrating alarm on the M505 is great. It would save Prism users a module to buy. You can also be alerted by a flashing light or the louder speaker built in.
Applications
With Handsprings' DateBook+ powerful views and better snooze options, the Visor Prism wins hands down straight out of the box. I found going back to the Palm DateBook was a step backwards.
Miscelaneous
Stylus quality - Prism
Detailing - M505 (no need to worry about paint coming off)
Useful expansion modules - Prism
I really wanna be fair but I am disappointed with the Palm M505. I'm giving it a week then I'll more than likley returning and put the money towards a Clie N710c .
Palm should have waited a couple of months before releasing this baby and got it right. On the surface it looks good!!! But don't judge a book by its cover.
-All that gliters ain't gold-
__________________
-Mikedemo
It's all about how you spend the money.
Yeah,
By: bblue @ 09:34 PM
BTW, before I go on, look in this month's issue of PC Magazine (the front cover is about email) for an add that says "Free Visor Deluxe!" (with a PC purchase) They show a Visor Prism! I wonder if anyone has taken them to court, knowing how sue-happy everyone seems to be.
---
NEways, I would not classify the M505 as a replacement to the Prism if the reason you bought the Prism, was the BEST color screen around. (However, read my idea for a Springboard module if so!) You should get the M505 if you want a V series with a decent color screen. Some will be satisfied, others won't. If you must HAVE a nice color screen, wait about a year until some brightness hacks are made (you just know theres someone out there who can defy the laws of Palm!) / Palm brightens the backlight.
(Although, a tiny stowaway clip-on light in that SD expansion slot seems AOK to me!)
Oh yes, BTW, the M505 looks perfect in total darkness. Not blinding like the Prism (when it's set to max) AND you can see the SilkScreen! And while the brightness is not something to write home about, in half-light situations, it beats the nearly-impossible-to-read Vx, and the "Magically Dissapearing" VDX.
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<b><font size=1 color=teal>"Sorry about the whole thing about losing your life savings, but that Palmpilot is property of Enron, so please give it back"
Re: Yeah,
By: mikedemo @ 09:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by bblue
. . . Oh yes, BTW, the M505 looks perfect in total darkness. Not blinding like the Prism (when it's set to max) AND you can see the SilkScreen! And while the brightness is not something to write home about, in half-light situations, it beats the nearly-impossible-to-read Vx, and the "Magically Dissapearing" VDX.
Atleast the VDX has a contrast control so that problem can be resolved.
As far as the M505 goes. It's not even a good replacement for a VDX. You might as well go for a Edge or an M500. If you want color, go for the Prism or the Sony Clie hell an iPaq (I'm tempted at times ). Why the hell should I need a hack to see decent color. Lets just put it this way. I showed the screen to Palm V and Clie users who have monochrome screens and they thought the M505 was hard to see.
-Yeah in the Dark it looks greats-
__________________
-Mikedemo
It's all about how you spend the money.
By: Rob @ 09:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mikedemo
Screen Performance
None to Low Light - Prism
I disagree; many people (including myself) feel that the Prism's backlight is too bright/contrasty for comfortable reading at night (plus the black 'grid' lines are more noticable on the Prism than on the m505). In low to no light conditions, the m505's greatest weakness (less bright/lower constrast) is actually an advantage.
By: mikedemo @ 09:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Rob
I disagree; many people (including myself) feel that the Prism's backlight is too bright/contrasty for comfortable reading at night (plus the black 'grid' lines are more noticable on the Prism than on the m505). In low to no light conditions, the m505's greatest weakness (less bright/lower constrast) is actually an advantage.
Are you looking at the same device?
The Prism's brightness can be adjust. At its lowest setting the Prism can be dimmer than the 505 in the dark.
Don't get me wrong. Outside the 505 looks great. But indoors I am grossed out. I gotta tilt the thing to get the light at the right angle to get the best viewing.
I think part of the problem is that the background is almost the same color as the case. Thats why people complained about how the screen looked in the stores. Dark.
__________________
-Mikedemo
It's all about how you spend the money.
Re: Re: Yeah,
By: Rob @ 10:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mikedemo
Lets just put it this way. I showed the screen to Palm V and Clie users who have monochrome screens and they thought the M505 was hard to see.
Well, let me put it this way: I've showed my m505 to several palm users and non-palm users indoors, and everyone thought the screen was perfectly readable (and colorful enough that when I showed them pictures they didn't comment on it looking washed out). I have also owned and regularly used both a Prism and an m505, so I'm not basing my judgments on simply looking at a demo model under store lights. You also didn't mention in your list that the m505's battery life is far better than the Prism's (one of the main reasons I switched), which is also a result of their screen brightness design choices. I know that the screen is not for everyone, and there also appear to be some significant variances between different m505 screens for some reason, but I don't think that we need to be making statements like:
quote:
Unless you plan to be right under stadium lights (actually bright light situations) or outside a lot, you will be very disappointed with it.
That's a very exaggerated and misleading statement, just like saying:
quote:
Unless you plan on carrying your cradle with you everywhere you go, you will be very disappointed with the Prism's battery life.
Both these statements are based on facts, but they are biased and overblown statements that assume the reader has the same preferences you do, and don't help a prospective buyer make an educated decision.
Re: Re: Re: Yeah,
By: mikedemo @ 10:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Rob
I know that the screen is not for everyone, and there also appear to be some significant variances between different m505 screens for some reason . . .
. . . Both these statements are based on facts, but they are biased and overblown statements that don't help a prospective buyer make an educated decision.
There must be a huge variance in screen quality. Maybe NY got a bunch of bad ones?
All of this is based on fact . . . mine. I just got the thing and have been testing it under many conditions. I found the screen was ultimatley best outside. I have no hate for Palm. So maybe it is the contrast on this device then?
For you guys to defend it so much you must have some serious lighting because I've shown it to over 25 people and they all said the same thing. Too dim in average lighting. There was better contrast on the Palm V, Clie, and VDX that we had present.
So tell me whats the prob? replace it?
__________________
-Mikedemo
It's all about how you spend the money.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Yeah,
By: bradhaak @ 01:43 AM
quote:
Originally posted by mikedemo
There must be a huge variance in screen quality. Maybe NY got a bunch of bad ones?
All of this is based on fact . . . mine. I just got the thing and have been testing it under many conditions. I found the screen was ultimatley best outside. I have no hate for Palm. So maybe it is the contrast on this device then?
For you guys to defend it so much you must have some serious lighting because I've shown it to over 25 people and they all said the same thing. Too dim in average lighting. There was better contrast on the Palm V, Clie, and VDX that we had present.
So tell me whats the prob? replace it?
From reading the various boards, there seems to be a fairly large variation of brightness. A number of people that have reported dim screens have m505s manufactured in Hungary. A number of them have said that they compared their units to US units and saw a huge difference. There were also one or two reports of dim US made m505s, but they seem to be the exception.
It is possible that you have one of the dim ones. Just out of curiosity, where was it made. Try going into a store (or stores) and compare to display units. If they are brighter (with the backlight on), you might want to think about an exchange.
Of the dozens of people that I have shown my m505 to, there is not a single one who has even commented on the display being too dark.
There may this kind of variation on other color units like the Prism or IIIc, but with an adjustable backlight, you would be unlikely to notice.
BTW - Even though I love the m505, I do wish that Palm had made the backlight adjustable so that I could decide how to use my battery.
Faster Hotsync?
By: Rob @ 02:20 AM
Hey Brad,
Have you noticed any improvement in speed when you went from a visor to the m505? Maybe I'm just imagining it (it wouldn't be the first time ), but I could swear that when I loaded all my stuff onto my m505 this morning, it was incredibly fast compared to my Prism's hotsyncs.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yeah,
By: mikedemo @ 03:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by bradhaak
From reading the various boards, there seems to be a fairly large variation of brightness. A number of people that have reported dim screens have m505s manufactured in Hungary. A number of them have said that they compared their units to US units and saw a huge difference. There were also one or two reports of dim US made m505s, but they seem to be the exception.
It is possible that you have one of the dim ones. Just out of curiosity, where was it made. Try going into a store (or stores) and compare to display units. If they are brighter (with the backlight on), you might want to think about an exchange.
Of the dozens of people that I have shown my m505 to, there is not a single one who has even commented on the display being too dark.
There may this kind of variation on other color units like the Prism or IIIc, but with an adjustable backlight, you would be unlikely to notice.
BTW - Even though I love the m505, I do wish that Palm had made the backlight adjustable so that I could decide how to use my battery.
Well atleast you know I am not lying. I will investigate tomorrow.
Is there a way to tell where it was made by some marking or a serial#?
__________________
-Mikedemo
It's all about how you spend the money.
By: Fat_Man @ 05:47 AM
I have been re-reading my posts from last night, and I would like to apologize if my comments appear to be nit-picking and too critical of Palm.
You know, I have been thinking about this whole Palm m505 issue tonight. I have to admit that I am disappointed at the m505. I bleive that's the root of my discontent with Palm. I guess my expectations of the m505 have been set too high, and I feel that I have been let down.
I was really looking forward to the m505 since rumors of it surfaced about 8 months ago (maybe longer?). I had wanted a color Palm handheld for a while, but decided not to get the Prism because of the resolution and grid-lines make reading text difficult.
Then technical details of the m505 were released, and at the about same time, Sony and HandEra also introduced their handhelds. While, the m505's features were basically borrowed from pre-existing features from Handspring/Sony and re-packaged in a Palm OS 4.0 name, Sony and HandEra made significant improvements and introduced new features on their handhelds:
Sony Clie:
1. color 320x320 resolution
2. built-in MP3/ATRAC
3. voice recording (I'm still not sure about this?)
4. built-in multimedia
5. 4MB of Flash ROM
6. memory stick expansion
7. bright beautiful screen(so I've heard)
HandEra 330
1. 320x240 resolution
2. soft graffi area
3. dual CF and SD slots
4. new fonts
5. ability to rotate screen
6. dual battery options
7. built-in voice recording and built-in speaker for playback
So I'm looking at these new features above, and I'm looking at what the m505 is offering:
Palm m505/m500(Palm OS 4) I have listed before:
1. 16-bit color (from Handspring)
2. SD Card (from Sony)
3. form-factor (from Palm V)
4. reflective screen (from Sony)
5. 33mhz processor (1st used by Handspring)
6. USB hotsych (from Handspring)
7. vibrating alarm: hey, that's new!!
Am I the only one thinking that someone dropped the ball?
Now to add insult to disappointment...here comes complaints from about every m505 reviewer that the color screen in too dim, dull, and milky, and now apparently there are reports that there are noticable screen brightness variability between m505's.
Come-on Palm!! Why aren't the features of Sony and HandEra not in the m505? Why did the m505 not have 320x320 resolution, soft graffi area, audio recording/palyback, etc? Do you even have a Research and Development department any more?
I guess that's the root of my disappointment and nickpickiness of the m505 and Palm.
Whew...it's good to vent...I feel better now.
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Fat's
By: Slot_Machine @ 12:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fat_Man
Whew...it's good to vent...I feel better now.
FM,
I have been frustrated about the m505 as well, but then I realized that Palm has decided to go after the Pinstripe crowd as their main customer. Think about it. Yes the color sucks. But if you're just Joe CEO, and you have a tee-time with Jim CEO, maybe all you want to do is highlight that appointment in red. The color screen may be second rate, but red is red, and black is black. Joe CEO makes his tee time. Joe CEO thinks:
quote:
"man this color Palm is great!! I'm going to make all the sniveling boot-lickers that work for me buy one too!"
Ta-da!! The current Palm leadership gets its wish. The palm m-series is not for us. Thank goodness for the CLIE and the HE330. (notice I graciously mentioned the CLIE first!
)
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By: Fat_Man @ 03:18 PM
a good review of HandEra...Very impressive!
http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/handera330-review.html
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By: mikedemo @ 03:38 PM
Fat_Man you have every right to point out Palm's goof-ups.
Because of Handspring, Sony, & Handera some great innovations are coming about. You would have thought Palm OS 4.0 devices would at least have better sound capabilities. Gameboy has way better sound and its only what, 60 bucks.
Palm needs to understand that the audience is maturing as far as their expectations of their PDAs. And I fear that Palm will slow down the compatibles because of the limited innovations in Palm OS 4.0.
Really think about it. The Clie N710c isn't even gonna have Palm OS 4.0 on it and will still romp all over the Palm M505 in audio and video capabilities. The iPaq is coming down in price and it truly is almost the perfect multimedia PDA. (too bad its running CE which is part of that grand family of products from Microsoft. Windows CE,ME,NT )
Well, I'm on day two with this 505 and I feel the same about it. Man really neat form factor. It fits in pocket, looks ultra cool, and is lighter than my overstuffed wallet. But the display is not where it ought to be . An iPaq, I saw on the train today was beautiful. The display was crisp and God I am jealous of the screen real estate (another goof on Palm. Still 160x160) that the iPaq has.
Anybody know when the Clie N710c going to be available?
__________________
-Mikedemo
It's all about how you spend the money.
By: Fat_Man @ 04:04 PM
Thanks Mike!
To further illustrate my point, has everyone read reviews of the HandEra 330. They basically took the Palm III form-factor, and improved upon it. HandEra basically threw everything into the 330, and resulted in a great handheld.
So why can't Palm do to the Palm V form-factor what HandEra did to the Palm III form factor? I know that size is a limitation, but HandEra fitted two expansion slot, a jog dial, room for 4 AAA's, an AC adapter connection for the optional lithium battery, a voice recorder, and a speaker all without increase the size, surely Palm could have done just a little more.
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