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Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: a European (and personal) view

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
And of course you going to back up these accusations with some arguements and proof right?

I haven't seen much in the way of arguments and proofs for your accusations yet, so I can't see why you'd expect any from anyone else. Furthermore, I don't see where I made anything which could be classified as an accusation.

09-03-2002 02:35 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: a European (and personal) view

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
If Clinton was still president I would agree with you, with Bush I'm not sure, he seems way to instable for my taste...I dont trust that guy...he's way to trigger happy for my taste..

Newsflash: The president is not an elected king. He does not have supreme power to wage unlimited war. Congress controls the purse strings, so any significant expense would have to be approved by them.

09-03-2002 02:37 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The surgeon general has determined that this post is not safe for the humor

quote:
Originally posted by septimus
I think we're pretty close on our opinions on Iraq, but you're more willing to invade full-scale than I am.

huh? That's a non sequitur if ever I saw one. The last thing I think we should do is launch a full-scale invasion of Iraq.

quote:
let's call that done.

quote:
Well, Bush has more unified and aggressive advisors,

There has been infighting in the Bushies since Day -36. Why do you think there are so many 'leaks'?

quote:
which means he doesn't waffle as much (until now), and allowed him to, uh, "win" the election. I personally think Bush's administration is the closest thing to a group of fascists-in-training since the Spanish Civil War.

No, the fascists in the Bushies aren't in training. They're professionals.

quote:
Must be your avatar. :P~~~~~~

At least my car has a personality ...unlike your avatar's subject.

09-03-2002 02:42 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
Warning.... I'm an equal opportunity offender, If I don't offend your sensibilities below, I apologize...

Apology accepted.

quote:
Remember what happened after Kuwait? ...and that was only a 'little' campaign.

Wasn't the wind more carrying the oilfield fire results (which Saddam's guys set) and not the results of what _we_ did?

quote:
If we want to kick his a**, kick him in his wallet. His people are starving - we don't need to kill them too.
Yet if we assaninate him, we'll just create a martyr.

The solution is simple then. Book him on the next episode of Survivor! Or maybe the next Real World! Real World Iraq! This is the true story of seven world leaders picked to live in a Palestinian hovel to see what happens when people stop acting like twits and start getting real!

quote:
Why don't we finish up in Afganistan first? We helped to "free" that country. How about we make sure they all enjoy some basic freedoms, like the freedom not to starve?

That's what the opium sales are for.

quote:
This all isn't about Iraq anyway, it's about never having found Bin Laden. if we really thought Saddam was such a threat, we wouldn't have stopped pressing him when he was on the ropes before.

I think Iraq was MacArthur's lament revisited.

quote:
So far the level of thinking that I've heard discussed all over isn't any different.
That old adage applies here too- The same level of thinking that caused the problem, will not solve it.

That's why we need to get this Real World idea cooking. That's got to be three or four levels above the way our world leaders (yes, the ones for _your_ country too) think now.

quote:
But since both the Reps and the Dems can share equal blame for ignoring events when it's not profitable for them to handle them, and then to incessantly argue about what's right when the public becomes aroused about an issue- what are we to do?

Stick Daschle in the Real World show too!

09-03-2002 02:57 PM

DirtyVicar
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 75

late to the party...

quote:
KRAMSauer. ReadTHIS

I just read that. In my opinion, the author is attempting to compare a single act that killed thousands with many smaller acts over a 20+ year period. I believe the response of any country would be vastly different in each of these situations. A childish and ignorant comparison, IMO.

09-03-2002 03:44 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Re: late to the party...

quote:
Originally posted by DirtyVicar
I just read that. In my opinion, the author is attempting to compare a single act that killed thousands with many smaller acts over a 20+ year period. I believe the response of any country would be vastly different in each of these situations. A childish and ignorant comparison, IMO.

Not to mention that it ignores that there is a difference between 'freedom fighting' and 'terrorism', even when the people doing one may also be doing the other and not necessarily at the same time. Bin Laden and the Mujahedin fighting against a Soviet invasion does not equate to running planes into building with civilians. Mandela and the ANC fighting for equality and representation does not equate with blowing up buildings or buses filled with civilians. 'Terrorism' is about tactics not goals, and anyone who doesn't consider it a real term is a liar or a fool.

09-03-2002 04:34 PM

yardie
Member

Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Posts: 1571

Re: Re: late to the party...

Toby,

There is a fine line between a Freedom Fighter and a terrorist. The West does not know all. Again, a lot of we what we in the West see as terrorism is seen by someone else as freedom fighting. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a perfect example of this. Do you think most Palestians see the suicide bombers as terrorists? Does this mean that we are right to define them as terrorists and the Palestinians are wrong?

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Not to mention that it ignores that there is a difference between 'freedom fighting' and 'terrorism', even when the people doing one may also be doing the other and not necessarily at the same time. Bin Laden and the Mujahedin fighting against a Soviet invasion does not equate to running planes into building with civilians. Mandela and the ANC fighting for equality and representation does not equate with blowing up buildings or buses filled with civilians. 'Terrorism' is about tactics not goals, and anyone who doesn't consider it a real term is a liar or a fool.

09-03-2002 04:48 PM

KRamsauer
TreoCentral Staff

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 734

quote:
There is a fine line between a Freedom Fighter and a terrorist. The West does not know all. Again, a lot of we what we in the West see as terrorism is seen by someone else as freedom fighting. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a perfect example of this. Do you think most Palestians see the suicide bombers as terrorists? Does this mean that we are right to define them as terrorists and the Palestinians are wrong?

I think you're misunderstanding his distinction. By his logic, the cause of the Palestinians is just, but the methods are not. Therefore we can define the suicide bombers as terrorists and the Palestinians who support them as wrong. Palestinians who push for independence are not necessarily terrorists. Freedom fighting is a goal, terrorism (killing of innocent civilians to disrupt their way of life) is a tactic. Much like cross-country travel is a goal and driving is a tactic.

My two cents on this issue: Bush should suck it up and lean on Israel to grant Palestinian independence. Israel will get no help unless they do that. At the same time Bush dangles a few billion dollars in aid in front of the Palestinians to be reduced by half with each confirmed act of terrorism. Palestine will need assistance to get off the ground, a la WWII Europe.

09-03-2002 05:07 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Re: Re: Re: late to the party...

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
There is a fine line between a Freedom Fighter and a terrorist.

Horse puckey. There is no de facto fine line (or _any_ line in some cases). They are not necessarily mutually exclusive (nor inclusive). Goals and tactics. Goals and tactics.

quote:
The West does not know all.

I do know that killing non-combatants for the purpose of creating fear is an act of terrorism regardless of what one's final goal is.

quote:
Again, a lot of we what we in the West see as terrorism is seen by someone else as freedom fighting.

You seem to have missed where I pointed out the distinction between the two, and where they might be similar. Being a 'freedom fighter' does not exclude one from being a 'terrorist'. Nor does being a 'terrorist' make one de facto a 'freedom fighter'.

quote:
The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a perfect example of this. Do you think most Palestians see the suicide bombers as terrorists?

I couldn't care less how they see them. Suicide bombers _are_ terrorists. Their goals may be noble, but that does not excuse or apologize their _methods_.

quote:
Does this mean that we are right to define them as terrorists and the Palestinians are wrong?

If the Palestinians acknowledge them as both 'terrorists' and 'freedom fighters', then they might have a case. Otherwise, they're either fools or liars. Just to note here, you're arguing with someone who has used the Boston Tea Party as an example of a non-lethal form of 'terrorism' by 'freedom fighters' in an argument before.

09-03-2002 05:11 PM

K. Cannon
Member

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

Quick question

Has anyone seen Bernie (ernieba1)?? He started this up and then ran screaming from the room...

09-03-2002 05:44 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Re: Quick question

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
Has anyone seen Bernie (ernieba1)?? He started this up and then ran screaming from the room...

Yep, it was a classic troll. It was much better than Cats. I'm going to see it again and again...

09-03-2002 05:58 PM

K. Cannon
Member

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

Re: Re: Quick question

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
It was much better than Cats. I'm going to see it again and again...

And I laughed, I cried, it became a part of me, while reading this whole thread.

09-03-2002 05:59 PM

septimus
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

Re: Re: Re: Quick question

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
it became a part of me,

You should get that looked at, it could be cancerous.

__________________
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09-03-2002 08:27 PM

K. Cannon
Member

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

Re: Re: Re: Re: Quick question

quote:
Originally posted by septimus

You should get that looked at, it could be cancerous.

But not as deadly as "Inane Ramblings"

09-04-2002 02:27 PM

septimus
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Quick question

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon

But not as deadly as "Inane Ramblings"

Heh, I'm taking another philosophy course right now, it may be time to ressurect that monster.

__________________
Don't like somebody? Click "Profile" on a post and then click "Ignore "so and so's" posts". Voila!

09-04-2002 03:43 PM

K. Cannon
Member

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

Lord, I finally had to unsubscribe...
(no offense d-r)

09-04-2002 03:45 PM

KRamsauer
TreoCentral Staff

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 734

Hey, look, the system works. I know dissention is part of the system, but man, so many people around the country and the world were really whining about this one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/04/i...04CND-IRAQ.html

09-04-2002 09:20 PM

septimus
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
Hey, look, the system works. I know dissention is part of the system, but man, so many people around the country and the world were really whining about this one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/04/i...04CND-IRAQ.html

More important to me is his upcoming address to the UN. That will be the biggest speech of his life, convincing a hostile audience to embark on a course of war, with supposedly secret evidence to be revealed during the speech.

__________________
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09-04-2002 11:04 PM

KRamsauer
TreoCentral Staff

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 734

quote:
Originally posted by septimus

More important to me is his upcoming address to the UN. That will be the biggest speech of his life, convincing a hostile audience to embark on a course of war, with supposedly secret evidence to be revealed during the speech.

Ooh, fun fun fun! When's this speech?

09-04-2002 11:23 PM

BobbyMike
Member

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: "Children are a gift from God, they are a reward"
Posts: 1049

Wasn't the wind more carrying the oilfield fire results (which Saddam's guys set) and not the results of what _we_ did?

Well, duh...

don't you think the idea of Saddam dumping all his chemicals when he starts to lose scares people. I was talking about whose fault it would be. I was talking about the result. If you shoot someone in the head accidently, they still end up with a hole in the head. Just like if you did it on purpose.

__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

09-04-2002 11:26 PM

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