Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 159

To show there are level heads out there in the Windows CE camp (which I must consider myself part of at this time), I thought I'd point out a review -- more an examination really -- of the Visor and its Springboard.

In the Sept 20th entry at PDAntic's Palm-Size PC World,
( http://www.pdantic.com/palmsize/ ), PDAntic take some time to look over the benefits of the Springboard, and how he sees the idea behind it to be a welcome product design to WinCE-based PDAs as well.


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- Zippy
NEC/Smart Phone Forums
PDA Buzz

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 151

They just don't get it do they? WinCE users clamoring for a new feature to keep up with the Palms/Visors--it's laughable! What they should be calling for is an entirely new approach to the OS for their handheld computers. And Rapier is not it. Everyone talks about how MS is going to crush Palm some day. I say that won't happen because MS keeps thinking in LARGE format with bloated operating systems that need to be shrunk down to tiny sizes. Their problem is that they truly believe software to be a gas, something that expands to fill the container. MS will always have bloated software which will always cause problems for their Palm Size PCs. That's why the Palm OS and device always win out, because they're simple and small.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 159

Laugh all you want (a laughing Jackal... hmmm). However, I'd like to make a few points on your comments:

I am presently a Windows CE user and am quite certain that I "get it". No matter the amount of gimmicks and doodads and good looks (and OS type and brand name and loyal following) a machine may come with, in the end I will always buy the one that provides ME with what I want or might need it to do. You see, unlike you I don't root for one product or design. I'm on the side of the users, and most of us only want PDAs that do what we want them to do. If we can get this, then WE win out.

I can't say much on what "Everyone"-else is saying, but I've personally never claimed or believed WinCE would crush any other handheld OS. The PDA market is big enough -- or will become large enough -- to support several competing (and complementary?) platforms. The attitude of "my Palm is better than your Palm-size PC" is the subjective stance of an individual's tastes, and says nothing about what the consumer market wants out of these things or where the technology is really going to take us. Desiring more out of your current device, hoping to see it work better or do more (or take on the feature set of others) is natural. After all, if everyone was happy with their devices as they are, then there would be no Visor.

If the Springboard module design is a good idea (and I believe it is), then other companies, including those building non-Palm devices, will incorporate it into their own handhelds. This hardly makes them losers.

[This message has been edited by Zippy (edited 09-24-1999).]

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 179

In my opinion, Palm and Windows CE almost serve two completely different types of PDA users...so in a way they only "compete" because of the media, who doesn't understand what they are talking about most of the time. Once somebody comes out with something popular the media is always looking for an opponent. The people that I know that own Palms are usually wanting a different set of tools than the people who want a Windows CE device. There is a little overlapping with apps but for the most part they both have opposite strong points and weak points. Now, granted, there are some PDA "freaks" out there that would have one of each Palm and one of each Windows CE device if they could but thats something closer to being a bit obsessive over PDAs (not that there is anything wrong with that). So, the question is should CE PDAs have springboards? I don't think there is room. For the most part, the springboard will bring capabilities to the Palm that the CE PDAs already have or have a way of having. So, its left up to you to pick your PDA. Personally I prefer one of each, a Palm with 8mb of memory (and a springboard in the case of Visor) and a Windows CE handheld (small keyboard type) with 32mb of memory, modem, pcmcia slot, small keyboard etc.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 54

Ideally, you want Springboard to be adopted by as many PDAs as possible. More people that have Springboarded PDAs means more people wanting to buy Springboard modules, which means more companies willing to start making Springboard modules, which means increased module diversity and availability and lower module prices. Handspring's already said they're perfectly willing to license the Springboard slot. My guess is that's where they're planning to make money off Springboard, since they're giving away the module specs for FREE.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 22

On a related note:
It's still somewhat unclear to me how Compaq can make a handheld with the same form-factor as the Palm V, but with 16MB RAM, 16 shades of gray, a CompactFlash card slot, a microphone, and an audio output jack. All this for $300. Is there something I'm overlooking?

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 159

There's a couple of reasons I know of behind the difference in costs with the two sets of hardware you mention:

1. Competition. Windows CE machines not only have to compete with the various makes out there in the collective WinCE market, but must also compete with the Palms.

2. 3Com pricing. Look at most of the markets 3Com is strong in (networking components, PDAs), and you'll see much higher pricing in comparison to their competitors. Now that Palm is setting off on their own again, and with the new competition from Handspring, expect prices to begin dropping on Palms fairly soon.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Posts: 151

Zippy, just to respond since you're the first to catch the joke. Yes, a laughing Jackal it is. Anyway, you and I agree substantially on what's important and that's whether or not a device meets a user's needs. In a former life I designed user interfaces for a living and simplicity in design was the key factor to matching a solution to the user's task. I personally believe that Palm has gone further than WinCE in accomplishing this and the rate of adoption would probably be a good basis to make that assertion. I'm not a Palm zealot, I just find that WinCE is like many Windows applications--it attempts to do too much within a limited platform. Trying to put all 36 flavors into an ice cream cone is a bad idea for the same reason feature overload is. One doesn't taste very good (i.e. bad user experience) and the other does lots of things poorly (i.e. bad user experience). Please tell me what you do with your WinCE that you can't do with a Palm or Visor device? You've ordered a Visor, right? Will it replace your current WinCe device? How come? If you're honest, it's probably because the WinCE device has not lived up to what you expected. Can you easily sync your device to your PC? Can you use that color screen outside? Do you really ever watch video clips on your device? What about MP3s? Are you pleased with the battery performance that you experience with your device? These are all questions of the user experience. That's why I support Palm/HS over WinCE. I actually hope MS "gets it" at some point, but I doubt it because I've talked with some of their developers and I know they still don't get it.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 159

I don't disagree with your analysis of the Windows CE platform. Trying to be everything to as many as possible is both a strength and a curse -- but more of a curse. In the future MS will have to find a specific focus for their OS, or figure a better way of modularizing it if they want to compete effectively.

Zippy and Jackal agreeing. Is that one of those signs of Doomsday approaching? Naw! I'll try to answer you voluminous questions in brief (as this discussion has gone way off the topic I posted):

The reason for picking up my first Windows CE machine was size. I needed a small PC-like device with a large keyboard and long-ish (well, long enough) battery life. This became for me the NEC Mobilepro 750, which I'm still using. Later when I went looking for a complementary device for more immediate (and smaller) PDA needs, compatibility with the 750 was a key feature. Hence I went with a Palm-sized PC.

Nowadays, compatibility with my trusty 750 is not a concern (I let the desktop PC handle all that now). I've not yet ordered a Visor, but as I mentioned in another thread here, it's at the head of the list for my next PDA buying spree -- unless something of better stature comes along. Being on the bleeding edge takes its toll, but I love being there!

I'm not the best to ask about battery life in these guys. Not being a free-range PDA user, I don't stray far from a power source. But as with everything, the more you can get out of it, the better you like it. I guarantee the first thing my Visor will get is a couple sets of rechargables; if that means anything.

When I have one, the Visor will take over for my current Palm-size PC. I presently own one of the "cool" PPCs (Casio E-100). I picked it up because a large ($$$) gift certificate brought it down to A GREAT DEAL LESS than cost (I rarely get so lucky!). I consider it an interim machine I'll hold onto for future play. I've used it with MP3s and video from time to time (I'm a gadget geek, not a multimedia mook, but I love the Audible books on it). It shows how far (and fast) these things are reaching. I look forward to improvements here (in the marketplace as a whole), as well as on the communications side. Communications, at least until the media technologies catch up with our imagination, is where I believe the PDA market will shine anew very soon.

Uh, that was not so brief, was it...

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Austin TX, USA
Posts: 79

Price and battery life. Those are the 2 biggest drawbacks of CE devices. I guess the screens are hard to read in daylight. The reason they HAVE so much RAM is because of the HUGE OS.

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Metro Station, Hollywood and Highland
Posts: 1018

Whatever the benefits of springboards for CE-based PDAs, from a practical standpoint it's unlikely to happen. Even if the standard weren't proprietary, for MS to mandate a hardware change like this to licensees on their next-generation units would raise prices (assuming CE vendors must still meet the existing feature specs), or slow production cycles. Since CEs sales are sluggish (13 manufacturers comprising 8% of the PDA market compared with 54% for Palm OS), the only leaverage they have on Palm OS units are prices, which they'll have to slash further with the advent of the Visor. Increasing the featuritis from the CE units now suffer would be suicide, and their hardware vendor would probably jump ship before facing the uphill battle of doing Microsoft's dirty work.

If Bill were smart, he'd give away the OS to manufacturers (a la IE) and let hardware designers decide how they want to implement it. If they weren't saddled with the "power user" spec profile that MS demands, we could have $50 PDAs.

One thing that did interest me before learning about springboards was the idea of creating a GPL-based OS (similar in principle to Linux) that could install via flash memory on CE hardware and replace CE as the OS. If the alternative OS gained popularity (and were freely distributed under the General Public License), manufacturers could create a new generation of PDAs sans Redmond. This is one advantage that flash has over springboards: it's a open standard. If this could be done, then no one could control the handheld market.

Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 1

There would be some technical difficulties in using Springboard on any non-PalmOS device.

One of the major features of Springboard is the fact that it's true Plug-and-Play - software is installed and operating system traps are hooked when you insert the card, and the OS un-does this when you remove the card.

The software that installs the drivers is a PalmOS application for Dragonball processors.

In order to support CE, there would have to be a second CE-specific version of the install program. Given the fact that CE supports several processors (2-3 major types, plus several other minor players), this really means that there would have to be several CE-specific install programs (one for each processor type).

If you then wanted to make Springboard work on a different handheld platform, you'd have to add another OS/processor-specific install program.

In addition, the host OS (WinCE, for example) would have to understand the memory layout of the Springboard module and know how to find the CE-specific install program for the devices processor.

If you were a vendor releasing a Springboard module that will work on "all" Springboard-compatible devices at a given time, you'd have to know enough about the internals of each device's OS in order to install the necessary OS hooks for your hardware.

If, after you release your module, Handspring licenses Springboard to another handheld device manufacturer, the code on your Springboard is now obsolete.

I'm sure that there are ways all of these issues can be dealt with, but it seems clear that Springboard wasn't designed for cross-platform/multi-OS/multi-processor compatibility.

It's a good design for it's (single) purpose - an expansion to a PalmOS device using a DragonBall processor, but would need to be re-worked in order to be a truly generic solution.

- YS