Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Metro Station, Hollywood and Highland
Posts: 1018

Homer:

Thank you for pointing out that there are multiple-button mice for the Mac. I'm going to Fry's this weekend to seek one out.

As for the point being silly, I don't see how. The platform isn't serving my needs to my satisfaction. That doesn't make PCs better than Macs, but it does point to a specific context where PCs might be better suited than Macs -- as opposed to, say, web design, video postproduction or desktop publishing, where I would choose a Mac in a split second.

I'm sure than someone more knowledgable than myself about Macs (and I freely admit, I'm relatively Mac-illiterate) could point to work-arounds for all my complaints, as you did on the mouse issue. But if the Mac's primary advantage is greater user-friendliness, then there's not much point in telling users to RTFM.

One thing I think has changed in society is that the base of computer literacy has raised in the last two decades to the point where GUIs are so mainstream that user-friendliness isn't the competitive advantage that it used to be. What distinguishes Macs these days is their hardware (G4 processors, "cool" looking iMacs, transparent cubes, etc.). This will probably change if OS X gets beyond vaporware status. I got to play with a beta for ten minutes, and was blown away.

I have problems with Mac (hardware and software) and Wintel platforms. I could go on for days about Windows' shortcomings. My point was that for writing, it's easier to edit and nagivate in and between documents with Windows. That's not the same as saying "MacOS sucks." It's about using the right tools for the right job.

[This message has been edited by Gameboy70 (edited 08-13-2000).]

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Metro Station, Hollywood and Highland
Posts: 1018

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Originally posted by Vertigo:
To get to the point, I use both Win98 OSR1 and Mac OS 9.0.4 daily, and I find that the Mac OS just has a more fluid workflow. It's the little things that count here... . Thet ability to hide a whole program (and ALL of it's windows) with a simple click drag with the Mac OS. that isn't possible with multi windowed program on Windows machines is it? correct me if I'm wrong, I would like to know File save dialog boxes are also easier to use with the Mac OS. And none of those.. silly.. forward and back buttons on windows (I know you can get rid of them.. I don't think they should be default) in Win98+.

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Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Texan in Calgary for a while
Posts: 1361

Since OS X is partly based on FreeBSD, could Apple port it to the Intel architecture?

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James Hromadka
VisorCentral.com
Personal Website: http://www.Hromadka.com

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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As for the point being silly, I don't see how.

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Registered: Mar 2000
Location: NJ
Posts: 517

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I also much prefer the Windows taskbar to see what applications are active at a glance without having to use the mouse. I hate having to mouse over to Finder to view my running applications.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location:
Posts: 12

In my humble opinion:

Macs are just plain easier to use. It's as simple as that. Try deleting a program in Windows by dragging the program's folder to the recycle bin - oh no! now everything's screwed up! For that matter, don't move anything in Windows to any other location on your hard drive except where it was originally installed. Want to copy that file somewhere else, well you better make sure Windows doesn't think you want to just make a shortcut to the file.

Why does Windows always assume the user is a complete brain-dead idiot who has never used a computer before? Especially when the operating system is so stupid! "Are you sure you want to permantly delete the contents of your Recycle Bin?" - duh that's why I put them there and that's why I selected "Empty Recycle Bin!

I like seeing all the details and extensions of files when browsing the hard drive. Sound's easy enough, but I had to search for several minutes to find this option. In the Mac OS, it's right there all the time, easy to find.

Macs are for power users who know what their doing. For example - Window's Wizards - why take me through step by step to set up something when I can just tab from field to field? Sure Macs have these to, but usually when you're installing software, not just setting up your email program. It might help if the Wizards gave you some additional info, but most don't.

Windows is ugly. The Mac OS interface just looks better. Everything seems crisper with more definition and you can totally customize everything easily like icons and themes and sounds - try Kaleidescope.

Windows is buggy as heck. In my experience you can lose everything on your drive if you have any kind of error and have to re-install system software. Macs have a clean-install and I've never lost a file. The time I spend not having to troubleshooting Windows and cheap Wintel hardware is well worth the extra money I paid for my Mac.

I really believe Apple spends a lot of time making their OS intuitive and elegant - a good balance of form and function, while Micro$oft just trys to add all the features they can.

Sure Windows is better for some things, like games or spreadsheets, but if you really want to create something great get a Mac and you'll never go back.

Sorry if this is too much of a rant, but I feel very strongly about this subject, and I am tired of all the brainwashed folks out there who have never used a Mac, yet dis them all the time. - if my co-worker says "Macintrash" one more time......

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I don't do Windows�!

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Metro Station, Hollywood and Highland
Posts: 1018

Homer:
For you mouse issue is silly. For me, it's irritating. Since Windows 95 added context menus to augment right-click functionality I see it as an OS/platform issue; you don't. But as you say, there are alternative mice for the Mac, so I'll hunt one down. Thanks again.

Registered: May 2000
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 194

Its real simple... stuff runs in windows. Or at least a whole helluva lot more than MacOS. Of course the truly evolved use linux, and i do, but my problems with it are i cant play Janes F-15 or Rogue Spear in Linux. But i can in Windows. And i never did get the USB PPP to work so i have to sync my visor via windows.

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Pleasanton, CA
Posts: 253

quote:

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Originally posted by b1lanceman:
Its real simple... stuff runs in windows. Or at least a whole helluva lot more than MacOS.

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There are some programs that I can't get for the Mac OS. So I installed Virtual PC (yes, I know it's an emulator and it runs slow) and now I have Windows 98 running on my Mac.

Although it give me the "willies" to see Windows on my PowerBook, at least I can run the stuff the IT guys won't get Mac versions for...

BTW Gameboy, I use my Mac for writing primarily. I prefer the interface (but like I said before, I'm use it more often).

I still think which OS to choose is a matter of preference now. The differences between the two are so minor now...

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Queen of Parts

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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For you mouse issue is silly. For me, it's irritating. Since Windows 95 added context menus to augment right-click functionality I see it as an OS/platform issue; you don't. But as you say, there are alternative mice for the Mac, so I'll hunt one down. Thanks again.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location:
Posts: 5

Let me start by listing the systems I have used: Commodore 64, Zenith 8086 portable (one big sucker) Apple IIe, Zenith 386sx, homebuilt 80286, homebuilt 486, homebuilt P-200, finally a homebuilt P-III/450 with Mandrake 7.1 and W98. I also have a Toshiba 400CS laptop that I haven't put an OS on.

I use MACs at school quite alot. We have G3s, G4s, Imacs, ibooks, and older PPC macs. We also have w95, w98 and w2k systems, and a few linux boxes scattered around students' rooms. I personally use W98 for games and a cheap scanner that doesn't work in linux. I'd have to say that each OS has its strong points. Macs kick ass in the graphics design area, but PCs are rapidly catching up. Linux is good for its use of older hardware, and Windoze is great for people who want the widest base of support.

Live and let live, people. You'll be happier for it.

Registered: May 2000
Location: Birmingham, AL, USA
Posts: 38

Homer stated:
"The mouse issue is silly in the argument of which OS is better. I agree, it is an important issue, but it is independant of the OS...both Mac and Windows (and, I assume, Linux) use contextual menus. The mouse (or other input device) is a peripheral independant of the OS. Right clicking on my Mac gives me the same functionality as right-clicking on my PC."

Homer,

I think that you are missing some the impact that the OS has on the right mouse function. It is true that if you are using a Microsoft program (or some other program that supports right mouse features) you can use a right mouse button on a Mac just as you would on a PC. However, I am not aware of any file managment menus that can be accessed through a right mouse button on a Mac. From Windows, I can send files to the Zip drive or to an email recipient just by right mouse clicking and going to Send To... I can also access the desktop properties directly from the right mouse menu instead of having to go to the Apple and down to control panal. Many of the desktop customization features are accessable easily this way.

But more important than that, Windows chose to make the right mouse feature an intergal part of the operating system. This means that ALL PCs ship with a mouse equipped with right mouse button. That may seem trivial to you, but I work at an University where we use many computers at different locations. Unfortunatly, most of them are Macs. When I go to the lecture rooms to give a class, if I want to have right mouse abilities, I would have to bring my own mouse and hook it up in each room I go to. If the university had installed PCs, then all the computers would automatically have right mouse function--I wouldn't have to bring my own mouse!! The OS does directly impact the hardware that is shipped with a computer!!

If you haven't used a right mouse much, you may not understand my enthusiasm over it. But once you learn to use it, you feel lost when it is not available.

Stephen

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

I guess this is turning into a debate on the philosophy of the mouse.

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However, I am not aware of any file managment menus that can be accessed through a right mouse button on a Mac.

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Ah...finally...a SPECIFIC COMMENT!

I agree, there aren't any default FILE MANAGEMENT menus available in the Mac's contextual menus. I wish there were. There are a lot of free add-ons to add that functionality, but, no, it is not built in.

quote:

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I can also access the desktop properties directly from the right mouse menu

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You can do that on the Mac too.

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But more important than that, Windows chose to make the right mouse feature an intergal part of the operating system.

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First of all, let's seperate the term 'right mouse click' from 'contextual menus'. The concept of contextual menus largely belongs to Windows. They deserve a lot of credit for that. It truly adds a layer of usefulness to the UI.

It took mac until OS 8 to steal that idea. They should have stolen it a lot sooner.

Now, onto the mouse debate. I can buy a mouse with 12 buttons on it if I wanted to (Mac or PC). I can also buy a digitizing table, trackball, joystick, touchpad, etc...these are all just input peripherals and are not dependant on the OS.

Why did Apple go with the one-button mouse? It's simple. If any of you have ever tried to teach any computer class to 'regular' computer users you will know how foreign the terms "double-click" and "click and drag" are to people. Adding the second button, by default, just confuses them that much more.

To be honest, I think all new computers should ship with one-button mice. Then, the computer user that knows what he/she is doing, can upgrade to their umpteen-button mouse.

I like my 4-button mouse, but also realize it isn't helping my carpal tunnel...

Registered: May 2000
Location:
Posts: 321

quote:

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Originally posted by JHromadka:
Since OS X is partly based on FreeBSD, could Apple port it to the Intel architecture?

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Registered: May 2000
Location: Birmingham, AL, USA
Posts: 38

quote:

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Originally posted by homer:

First of all, let's seperate the term 'right mouse click' from 'contextual menus'.

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Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 289

scm --

Hold down Control (I Think) when dragging to the desktop. This will force the system to make a copy to the desktop. This works equally as well when copying between folders on the same drive.

(note: I am not in front of a Mac right now, but if its not control, it is either Option or Command ...)

Joe

Registered: Mar 2000
Location: NJ
Posts: 517

It's option . (hehe, sorry about that, I said command before without even thinking)

At least you can drag things from the desktop to the HD or disk. Everything appears right on the desktop on the Mac. Does it in Windows? No, disks appears in a special folder along with, control panels????? There just isn't any logic to it. The disks are the root of everyting, so why are they in a folder on the desktop?

In Windows it is so awkward to navigate through the windows that I don't even bother. I spend the majority of the time looking for something in explorer and then copying it. Windows just isn't as smooth to operate. I feel like I'm a robot or something everytime I use it(an impaired robot that can't do 20 million calculations per second).

[This message has been edited by lennonhead (edited 08-16-2000).]

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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What am I doing wrong?

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Registered: May 2000
Location: Birmingham, AL, USA
Posts: 38

Thanks for the file managment tips!

I have another problem with the Mac that may be more of a hardware problem than the OS, but, again, with Mac, its hard to separate the issues. This one actually suprises me!

I use MS Powerpoint alot to put together lectures. I put alot of graphic and clinical photographs in my lectures to help students visualize what we are discussing. I also us animation alot to illustrate points, and just to liven things up. I find that the PC runs the presentation MUCH quicker and smoother than the Mac. This shocks me because I thought this was Mac's strength. I often have to go to "Get Info" for Powerpoint on the Mac, and raise the amount of memory alotted to the program for it to run. If I leave it at this setting after I'm finished, it screws up other programs. I find that many presenters are having to chop their presentations into multiple files just to get the Mac to work. And we are running G3s!!

I actually suspect that some of this problem results from the fact that Microsoft writes their programs first for the Windows format, then comes back and duct tapes them together to run on the Mac OS. Whatever the reason, it is a daily nuisance!

Stephen

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

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I actually suspect that some of this problem results from the fact that Microsoft writes their programs first for the Windows format, then comes back and duct tapes them together to run on the Mac OS.

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