Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 35

Foo:

I swear you work for Microsoft the way you praise PocketPC. Every review I have seen says PPC is the same ole crap MS has been pushing for years.

PPC will bomb just like WinCE. Someone correct me if I am wrong but Which WinCE hardware has sold the most to date? I would guess Sega Dreamcast.

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 289

Gameboy -- the Compaq has an "Expansion Pack" which allows you to use Compact Flash or PC Card media. However, this is not standard and according to Compaq's website, it will be $39 for the compact flash addon.

Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Posts: 1571

Methink Foo Fighter is a microsoft infiltrator. All the posts about WinCe..umm I meam Pocket PC were started by him. Is it a coincidence that he got a "peek" at the units even before they were unveiled weeks ago? hmmm

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: I'm not sure, but I see lots of lights everywhere.
Posts: 1287

My GOD!!!

I disappear for one day and this thread turns into an essay contest!

Alright here goes,

First of all I just got my new HP Jornada today and I love it! My only gripe is the stylus. It's flat!!! The PDABUZZ review said it looks like a SLIM JIM that someone stepped on. Other unit looks beautiful with it's all metal case.

I will make one concession though...the Pocket PC is slightly less intuitive than the Palm OS. For example, it's not immediately apparent where the home screen is. Palm simplifies this by using the "home" icon for its launcher button, but on a Pocket PC it takes a while to understand that the "today" screen is your home screen. When inside of an application such as the Calendar, your next question becomes..."where do I go now?". Overall its great though, extremely fast. Pocket Explorer is great, it's like AvantGo on steroids, and the MP3 player is awesome.
------------------------------------
I can't possibly answer everyone's post so I'll just do some clipping.

First of all, I never said the Pocket PC will kill the Palm. If you read posts I made in this discussion in the past you'll see that I believe that both platforms will have a very prosperous future. The Palm will continue it's lead over the Pocket PC for the next few years, but the gap in market share between these two platforms will gradually shrink over time. Most analysts say Pocket PC will go from the current 15% to 30% over the next 3 years, while Palm will go from 78% to 58%, and I think I would agree with that. The big mistake Palm zealots make is assuming that Microsoft is their greatest threat, but it's not! Pocket PC is a niche player that appeals to consumers who want more from a PDA. Currently that's a small niche but it will expand. The greatest threat to Palm and the Pocket PC will be the wireless cell phones with internet access. Think about it, cell phones have a much larger installed base than a Palm or P/PC. We all know that a Palm-like handheld is a much better interface to wireless web content than the postage stamp sized screen of a cell phone, but novice consumers don't. And it's human nature to gravitate to what your familiar with. And that boys' and girls' is the greatest threat to our beloved Palms and Visors', not the Pocket PC. Case in point: the new wireless email device from RIM.

And for the record I still love the Palm. In fact I'm keeping the Visor, I think it's a neat little handheld.

As for me being a Microsoft plant,....PLEASE!!! If I were a Microsoft plant, then they aren't paying me enough money for having to write all of these lengthy posts!

And the reason I made so many negative comments about the Visor since VC went up is because, like nearly all of the original Visor owners, I've had nothing but problems! My first two Visors had crooked screens, the colored unit developed cracks and kept locking up constantly. But Handsprings "dark days" are over. I think they've done an excellent job of cleaning up their act. In fact the last (and current) Visor I received was perfect. No crooked screen, no cracked case, just pure Palm-like bliss. I love it, and customer service was as friendly as you could possibly want. They really seemed to care about my problems and opinions of their product.

In terms of platform philosophy, my only concern for the Visor is that the OS is in the wrong hands...Palm's! Simply put, Palm is going nowhere, and they don't seem to have a cohesive strategy. And that could drag the Visor down unless Palm is forced to begin adding much needed features to bring this platform up to spec. Handspring attempted to overcome this by adding a vastly improved Datebook, and of course the hot new Springboard. Unfortunately that doesn't fix what's lacking in the OS. The Pocket PC will, hopefully, motivate Palm to reinvent this platform. Palms philosophy of simplicity at the expense of features is a sound one, but the question quickly comes at what point are the current features not enough? And not all of the Pocket PCs features can be looked at as unnecessary. Some of them are actually quite good.

Pocket PC is a great new addition to the field of handheld computing. It shows just where this connected world may be heading. But in no way do I think this will spell the end for Palm. As I said before, this entire P/PC vs. Palm argument is moot. It's the guy next to you carrying his wireless web phone and showing it to all of his friends we have to worry about!

Cheers!
----------------------
Foo

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Metro Station, Hollywood and Highland
Posts: 1018

Cerulean:

Thanks for the clarification.

foo:

So, how's the weather in Redmond? Despite other VC member's complaints, frankly I've enjoyed having you around to stir the pot. And now a reality check . . .

Well, it's official: the PPC is DOA. And I feel personally vindicated that the "natural" handwriting recognition of the Transcriber feature is as hard to use as I predicted it would be:
"Unlike Palm OS's easy Grafitti writing program, Pocket PC's character recognizer is inconsistent. We like the fact that you can actually see the letters as you write them on the device's screen, but we wish that the character recognizer would translate written characters into the correct letters." (C-Net)

"I also found Pocket PC�s handwriting-recognition skills to be woefully inadequate. It kept reading my a�s as g�s or u�s, my b�s as d�s and sprinkling periods liberally throughout my text. A few hours of this, and my head was throbbing; I reverted to tapping in my letters one at a time on the onscreen keyboard. For the time being, I�ll stick with Palm�s tried-and-tested Graffiti alphabet." (Time Digital)

OK, everybody, let's make a bet. Which manufacturer will drop the PPC first?

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 289

While I haven't toyed with the handwriting recognition on the PocketPC, I am wondering if the recognition has a sweet spot where you can start improving the recognition ..

I wonder if the Pocket PC is indeed inferior to Graffiti or if its a case of perception - with Palm, your expecting to spend a few hours learning the keystrokes where as with PocketPC you expect it to just work. I guess time will tell on this issue.

Besides the C|Net and Time Digital reviews (Which appear to be from die-hard Palm users (atleast the Time Digital one..)), I haven't seen reviews that dwell on the crashing or handwriting issues.. I wonder what the C|Net reviewer was doing to make their unit crash 4 times in 3 hours?!?! I dunno, I would assume most reviewers would spend atleast 3 hours using a product before publishing an article -- i am surprised I haven't seen any other mentions of instability.

Anyways, I hope foofighter will enlighten us with his experiences with his PocketPC after he uses it for a few days/weeks..

As a student, I think I would really like a PocketPC over my Visor for the notetaking abilities. From what I have seen, it appears I can hook up a keyboard, type away in word (with formatting, spell check, etc..etc.. -- what a concept and then have an option to draw in diagrams/etc and keep it all together (not to mention a very simple sync with my desktop Word). Seems a lot more feature rich and useful compared to the current Palm offerings (Smartdoc, QED).

However, if the PocketPC units fail on battery life (ie die after 4-5 hours of taking notes) and are prone to frequent crashes, I will definitely stick with my Visor even though I feel the palm philosophy of "less is more" is inadaquate for my needs.

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Metro Station, Hollywood and Highland
Posts: 1018

C|Net cited the Media Player as the application that crashed the PPC the most often.

The critics' "perception" of the PPC's HR shortcomings is congruent with my experience with the Newton's HR. Believe me, I know the throbbing head feeling engendered from poor transcription algorithms. When I first heard that MS was abandoning Jot for Transcriber I was highly skeptical. Apparently that skepticism isn't unfounded.

If you're required to "teach" the PPC your handwriting (like I had to with the Newton -- unsuccessfully I might add) over any significant period of time, then the advantage over Graffiti is largely negated. There's still a learning curve whether the onus is on the user or the machine. Frankly I think the one thing MS got right with WinCE was incorporating Jot as its native text recognition. The few times I've used Jot on the Casio E-105, I've found its glyphs more intuitive that Graffiti, and from time to time have considered purchasing the Palm version of Jot. But I'm already pretty fast with Graffiti. I'm not sure why MS decided to dump Jot. It's not as if this was on critics' short list of gripes about WinCE.

Why do I keep harping on this issue? Because after switching from the Newton to the Palm it was obvious that "natural" HR is one of the most tenacious fallacies in pen-based computing. If humans are often unable to recognize each other's writing, there's no reason that computers should fare any better.

With the Newton it got to the point that every time I put the stylus to the screen to enter something, my shoulder blades would involuntarily tense up in anticipation of making a mistake, which was inevitable if I input more than two words. I spent most of my time editing my (the Newtons?) mistakes and less time writing.

On the plus side, having Pocket Word must be great to sych with the desktop version, especially since the Stowaway is or will be available for Pocket PCs. That really is better than QED or SmartDoc, and the the one feature of the PPC that makes me jealous. Oh well, that jealousy won't be such an issue this weekend, by which time I'll have my eyemodule and Stowaway to play with

Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 28

don't worry foo will prob blam you for the bad HR.


looks like what i thougth about PoppyPeeCee was right. it's gona die slowly like the newton died. just wait till the simpsons make fun of it like they did with the newton. that spells the end of that.


If i were a poppyPeeCee user(shoot me first plz) i would just go with jot. but then that adds to the total cost does't it?
humm palm seems more atractive more and more.

ppl take the fact that it works exactly the way it was inteded to for granted only because others make theres look much better, but they never work.

cme on foo why is your poppyPeeCee crashing alot? come on you said it would not crash and would stable like a rock cuz of it's "nt" code.

Registered: Oct 1999
Location:
Posts: 28

humm i just noticed ppl are now refering the PoppyPeeCee as No palm killer

this kinda scares me as palm can kill off any palm killer without trying
but now they have somethign new. maybe it is the end cuz they are say'n it is not a palm killer maybe it will kill palm

what am i say'n i bet in the next few simpsons episodes you will see them poke funn at poppypeecee

humm maybe it will be the palm next. :P

who knows

Registered: Nov 1999
Location:
Posts: 37

The handwriting recognition seems to be a huge problem with everyone, but nobody seems to realize that you can use Palm's grafitti on the Pocket PC (as far as I know). All you have to do is set the popup recognition, similar to the permanent section on the bottom of the Visor, to recognize in all-CAPS and wala (whala? walla?) Grafitti. Personally, the full handwriting recognition is one of the best sellers for the Pocket PC. I was planning on purchasing Calligrapher until I learned that Microsoft had already bought them out (thank goodness for their domineering ways.)

My HP Jornada 545 is on the way so I will be able to participate more when I have the actual unit to test.

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Baltimore MD, USA
Posts: 717

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gameboy70:
Why do I keep harping on this issue? Because after switching from the Newton to the Palm it was obvious that "natural" HR is one of the most tenacious fallacies in pen-based computing. If humans are often unable to recognize each other's writing, there's no reason that computers should fare any better.

---

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 289

It seems like Wilbur and Mr.Ed (http://talk.to/mr.ed) were able to do the English/enhanced IQ thing just fine .. and it made them TV stars!! heh..

Nah .. but seriously.. just to dismiss a technology because another one is more reliable at the time seems to be against the entire high tech movement. Look at speech recognition. Original you had to spend hours "teaching" the system to understand you and then talk in discrete words. Now it is better that it can start "hearing" you almost instantly while you talk normally. Now it is at a point where voice makes more sense than typing in certain situations (ie auto transcript from a meeting, computerized phone answering machines (tell it what you want instead of going through a menu tree)).. Granted, originally these were done just fine with a keyboard and given your logic, should have just been dropped because keyboard was better. I think by re-implimenting handwriting recognition it shows that they want to try and make it better, unlike Palm which thinks "Graffiti is good enough.. no more R&D needed"

Granted, I think taking an Apple approch (completely dropping one thing for the next great thing (ie NuBUS for PCI, ADB for USB, PowerPC for G3 only OS, etc..)) may be too drastic. I am interesting in knowing how that graffiti "emulator" works out (accd to Ploobers) -- That may give the best of all worlds (handwriting, Graffiti, voice, keyboard, soft keyboard, etc..etc..)

I would still like to hear about reliability issues with these units particularly when NOT listening to MP3s/audio in the background.. Having Pocket Word is very tempting for me...

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: I'm not sure, but I see lots of lights everywhere.
Posts: 1287

Cerulean,

It's too early for me to make a final judgment on reliability because I've only had my 545 for less than a couple days, but so far I think these so called reviewers are smoking pot. My Jornada hasn't crashed once, and I've been listening to MP3 tracks while browsing Internet Explorer, reading my e-mail, and playing around with Pocket Word. So I don't know what the story is. I noticed in the CNET article, the woman doing the review called the OS "crash-prone" because it crashed several times when playing a particular MP3 file. I haven't experienced any problems with the WMP, which leads me to believe it had something to do with the track she was playing. I've had similar experiences when using WinAmp on my PC. A bad track is the usual suspect. But this is clearly sloppy journalism. When writing a review you have to get your facts straight when making a critique. Would any of you say the Palm OS is unstable because a application or hack crashed your Visor. Please! And I'm more than a little suspicious of her motives when, in her final analysis, she made the statement..."Palm users should stay put". Why did she specifically refer to Palm users, why not laptop or handheld users? Is she afraid there might be more than a few Palm users who will look at these new devices?
---------------
Foo

[This message has been edited by foo fighter (edited 04-20-2000).]

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 295

Wiredguy.com posted pictures/specs of all the new PocketPC devices:
http://www.wiredguy.com/reviews/sr/pockethard/index.htm

------------------
<><

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Beavercreek, OH 45434
Posts: 29

I read the Time review ( http://www.time.com/time/digital/yo...6,43224,00.html ) and I did not get the same impression that was posted in another review. The review did prefer his palm but he said that the only way that he would switch if it was easier than his palm. I don't think that anybody expected the PPC do be easier or even as easy as a PalmOS machine, just a heck of a lot easier than the current CE machines. With additional functionality of the CE devices they could have been an effective competitor to Palm.

However, the problem with PPC will probably be the price point. In order to get the two features that everyone thinks are great like MP3 and the ClearType reader you start talking about a machine which is a lot more expensive than a Palm or Visor. With machines this small it is very easy to damage them and I'd like to spend as little as I can on a machine in case I have to buy a replacement.

I agree with FooFighter on one point. The real competitors to the Palm are going to be cell phone equiped organizers. Another will probably be wireless Internet palm devices like the VII. The big factor will be if services start subsidizing the initial cost of a communication service device (whether it be phone or Internet palm device) and pass on the additional cost on the monthly payments. I think I'd might sell my Visor if I could get a reasonably priced always on communication device that would allow me to:

check email
get driving directions
get movie times
get weather forecasts
buy something off Amazon.com

The Palm VII comes close but it has a limited battery life and only 2MB of memory.


I don't know why Microsoft went to the new form of handwriting recognition. I think the best technique is to make sure that a onscreen keyboard is available and include a snap on keyboard for real text entry. Wouldn't almost everybody pay a little bit extra with their Visors or Palms and get keyboard accessory with it?
http://www.time.com/time/digital/yo...6,43224,00.html

Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Posts: 1571

Does Pocket PC devices come with a modem built in? I notice that one of their main selling points is internet access, but I see nothing on the specs about modems.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 46

quote:

---

Originally posted by foo fighter:
... Now all they have to do is get developers interested in writing code for their platform!

---

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 289

AFAIK the current Pocket PCs do not have a modem built in as a standard item. You can, however, use a compact flash modem.

Joe

Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Posts: 1571

Cerulean:

And just how much would a compact flash modem add to the price tag of the unit?

Registered: Dec 1999
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 289

I haven't done a lot of checking of prices, but it looks like the modems are ~$120-$140 ..