Registered: Apr 2000
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 3

I don't know if this has been covered yet....but will any of these devices support the MAC? I mean as opposed to microsoft as I am, its just nice to know what choices I have :-)

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Metro Station, Hollywood and Highland
Posts: 1018

To date, WinCE has zero Mac support. PalmOS is synchable to Windows, Mac, Unix and even BeOS to some extent. I did read an article about MS hiring an Apple UI guru for its CE team, which may or may not mean Mac support is down the road.

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: I'm not sure, but I see lots of lights everywhere.
Posts: 1287

Gameboy70,
I have heard that Mac support is coming to the Pocket PC, finally! I'm assuming, however, that wont be anytime soon though. Microsoft should have done much sooner. There certainly will be a market for it.

Registered: Jan 2000
Location:
Posts: 107

This ongoing debate cracks me up. Stealing Foo�s Escort vs. Expedition analogy, it reminds me of those window stickers you see in Ford and Chevy vehicles. The Ford�s have a picture of a mischievous Calvin-looking character (Calvin and Hobbes) peeing on a Chevy symbol. Likewise, the Chevy�s have a picture of the same Calvin character peeing on a Ford symbol.

My two cents: If it were to all come down to advertising, I�d bet everything on the PocketPC. Has anyone else seen Palm�s ad for the IIIc? It show�s some creepy looking punk rocker sporting a purple mohawk and holding a IIIc with a picture of his grandparents. Is Palm�s target audience aging Sex Pistol fans?

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: bright side of the moon.
Posts: 996

Hey everyone.

Wow! don't turn on the computer for one day and you'll pay for it. Quite the thread here.

Foo: As far as my view being opinionated, i think a 'pot calling the kettle black' phrase comes to mind.

Gameboy: You read my post the right way, the main thrust of my post was to note that PocketPC wasn't revolutionizing anything. There were some improvements (the transcriber, etc) but there was nothing there that was a PalmOS killer. (and i think Foo mentions this aswell.) and hence, i'm not worried.

Sure it incorporated some 'neat' features, but I, like many others here, don't want alot of that payload. For me, personally, there is one arguement for not wanting the payload. Battery technology is nowhere NEAR what it should be for something that PocketPC wants to be...or the Visor for that matter. We all dream of MP3's and GPS and blah blah..but in the long run battery life is what's killing everything. SO, for PocketPC to come with an MP3 player, great, but i bet even the very pretty MS drone that demonstrated the PocketPC doesn't use it becuase her battery would run out in a very short time and she wouldn't be able to check her schedule for that car wash!

Colour: I've also used the IIIc (foo, you seem to write like you're the only person to have seen or tried alot of this stuff ) and frankly it was nice. I also tried a friend's Casio running WinCE (and as a sidenote, he didn't carry his around very much because he hated the size) and the colour was nice on that aswell. As far as which one I liked better? Let's see, they were both readable, both colour, both clear enough for my eyes, but you know what? the IIIc fit in my POCKET!!! ironic that, I think MS might want to consider calling it the PursePC since that's what you'll need. I know foo describes some thin PocketPC's coming out, but they will be grayscale and i'm wondering about the CF slot. As far as the new Colour PocketPC's being the same size as the IIIc??? If that lovely MS employee was using a new PocketPC powered handheld during her presentation (which i'm assuming she was as they did EVERYTHING they could not to show us what the hardware looked like) then you're wrong. this thing was approx 2.5 times the volume of the Visor! I'm not sure who wrote it above, but the secret to what many want in a PIM is portability.

To conclude ...whew! The PocketPC that MS unveiled was cool, it did some neat stuff even! it impressed me in many ways, but i'm not worried about it being a PalmOS killer. Personally, i see a fork in the road. MS will travel the route to one day having EVERYTHING under the sun in a computer that is about 1/4 the size of a current laptop...maybe even smaller! and Palm will most likely be used as a much smaller sidekick to existing laptops to carry vital information (as it does now) and the Visor will just let the few people who require only this vital info to 'goof around' and have some fun...without lugging around a beast.

I'm looking forward to the Apple handheld. I read an interesting article that suggested an Apple handheld which 'docks' in a laptop (like a current battery does) and becomes another 'hard drive' on that laptop.

I don't think anybody needs to worry. Those that want it all in one and don't mind size, battery usage will have PocketPC. Those of us that want something with the vital's that isn't ruled by the 'empire' will have an option as well.

I agree with you foo: we need both systems in this world. I just wish people would stop trying to force one or another down other people's throats...let's leave that to certain parts of this globe that have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with PIM's.

Oh ya....Focus vs. Expedition??? well, i drive a 4 cylinder and I LOVE PAYING 13 bucks a week (tankful) for gas while the guys at work are wringing their hands over the 60 dollar tankfuls every 4 days!!! I won't start on the similarities in battery usage.



[This message has been edited by Hoser_in_USA (edited 04-10-2000).]

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 295

I think the most important thing to remember is that in an enterprising society it is extremely important to have competition. Otherwise, there is stagnation. While I am one who has reveled that the mighty MS engine has been ground to a halt in the palmtop arena, I am glad that Palm now has some genuine competition to keep them sharp and focused.

------------------
Mark Beck <><

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: I'm not sure, but I see lots of lights everywhere.
Posts: 1287

Hoser,
Let me say this again. With the exception of the Casio device all COLOR Pocket PC devices will be thinner and lighter, fitting in the same ballpark as the Palm III/IIIc. I'm not sure what you looked at (you said it was black so I'm assuming it was the old HP Jornada), but the new HP and Compaq systems look gorgeous! They have been radically redesigned to be simpler, smaller, and more stylish. Think Palm V styling and simplicity (unfortunately not the size of the V though, but then again neither is the Visor.) Even Microsoft isn't giving the public a peek at the hardware, only the OS. Nothing more. I think you will be more than pleasantly surprised a week from Wednesday.

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: I'm not sure, but I see lots of lights everywhere.
Posts: 1287

There is of course another solution. Just do what I'm going to do; own a Visor and a Pocket PC! It's the best of both worlds baby!

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Columbus, Ohio USA
Posts: 255

I can understand music, but aside from the little kid getting hit in the head with a basketball at the end of a game (only 900k) I still don't understand why having "movies" on your palm pc would be that big of a deal. Why, so you can carry around 10 second porno clips or something?

There's nothing worthwhile that can be shown in a size that you can transport, so if you can movies that's just a pointless feature.. kinda like spedometers goign up to 200 (keeping the car analogy). yeah, some people will drive that fast, but most of us won't be able to or won't care to.

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: I'm not sure, but I see lots of lights everywhere.
Posts: 1287

Biz,
a Video player doesn't come with a Pocket PC (it does on the Casio.) There is a free downloadable application called Pocket TV available. I guess Microsoft felt that many consumers wouldn't need this feature. I only mentioned it because people were asking me what Pocket PC could do that a Palm can't.

I agree this is hardly "must have" but it is very cool when seeing work first hand. MP3 playback is awesome though. The sound quality is excellent and the devices are thin and light enough to put in your pants pocket while playing. I found that to be one of my favorite features. I also liked the fact that I could perform certain other functions such as reading e-mail while listening.

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: bright side of the moon.
Posts: 996

quote:

---

Originally posted by foo fighter:
MP3 playback is awesome though. The sound quality is excellent and the devices are thin and light enough to put in your pants pocket while playing. I found that to be one of my favorite features. I also liked the fact that I could perform certain other functions such as reading e-mail while listening.

---

Registered: Nov 1999
Location:
Posts: 37

At the PocketTV website, I believe it claims to be able to hold over 2 hours of movie clips on a 128MB flash card. You don't have to carry around 10 secs of porn, but you can take an entire movie (wholesome of course) with you. This is way better than anything you can do on the Visor, (at least multimedia wise)

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: bright side of the moon.
Posts: 996

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ploobers:
At the PocketTV website, I believe it claims to be able to hold over 2 hours of movie clips on a 128MB flash card. ... This is way better than anything you can do on the Visor, (at least multimedia wise)

---

let's hope Microsoft was smart enough to put an AC adaptor connection on these things. Otherwise i'm buying stock in batteries. Or electrical companies (if they're rechargable)!

Registered: Nov 1999
Location:
Posts: 37

I'll bet that the battery lasts for at least 2-3 hours when playing a full movie. The current generation lasts 4-5 playing MP3's, so the next generation should improve on that. A movie I could carry around with me would be great, not to even mention the coolness factor.

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: I'm not sure, but I see lots of lights everywhere.
Posts: 1287

Hoser,
Sorry for being lazy, but I didn't want to retype my explaination due to the fact that I've had to repeat this so many times. Anyway, here is what I posted some time ago in this discussion board:

Ploobers,
I'm sorry, but I can't give any details on the Jornada's design or features. My NDA expires on the 19th when Microsoft will unveil the devices. I find it somewhat strange that the OEMs are letting Microsoft do what should be their job, but I don't plan these things! My NDA prohibits me from disclosing any info that is not, already, officially released from HP. For example, HP has already made it known that the devices will be named the Jornada 540/545. That's why I can tell you that it is still called the Jornada and not something else. I was given the chance to see it from my friend who works for Agilent (a division of HP). His staff has been testing it for several weeks. He got me in by stretching the truth, I'm a web designer, and he listed me as a Wireless solutions provider for handheld devices. That was BS! I've only made a couple AvantGo channels for some clients! Oh well, I'm not telling HP.
The new Jornada is very nice, and very stylish! The Cassiopeia was the leader of the pack in size, style, and features, but that has now changed. It's now the "big brick" of the three OEMs. Smaller.com thinks the Jornada looks better than the Palm V. That might be a slight overstatement, but as Adam Corolla would say in the "Lightening round", "it is hot...hot...hot!!"

I should also note that this is the only Pocket PC device I have seen. There could be other devices from HP not yet mentioned or displayed. We'll see. I would wait. From what I understand they are already in distribution centers across the country, so you won't have to wait on the 19th to get your copy. Unfortunately for me, seeing the pre-production units don't entitle me to getting one before anyone else. I'll have to wait in line just like you.

I'm very excited though!

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

Wow. This is some debate.

I'll throw in a few thoughts.

Foo, you certainly seemed impressed, and rightly so. It appears that the new PocketPC has some great new features.

But I don't think anyone can call it a Palm killer.

Like a few others, the only real innovations that appeal to me are more screen real-estate (having the grafitti area dissapear when not in use), actual handwriting recognition (leave it to MS to call it something like "transcriber") and a higher-resolution, color screen.

None of these features are really tied into the OS. With the release of these machines, it'll only be a matter of months for the Palm camp to come out with these features as well.

If there is *any* truth to the rumor of Apple and Palm working together (which Jobs has said) then we can probably expect a great implementation of the handwriting software that was in the Newton (with, I'm sure, new left-handed support )

Higher-resolution, color screens will come with time. It seems MS is using them mainly to display videos and multi-media...which I am still not sure is something I need on my PDA.

As for WinCE bing a true multi-tasking OS, I don't see how that would really apply to me. Other than listening to MP3s in the background while I work, I don't see the value in it.

As for MS throwing in all of this software for free, I see two problems:

1) MS Office, with the exception of Access, sucks...some of the worst software out there.

2) They may very well not be allowed to give it away with the impending court case verdicts.

Registered: Sep 1999
Location:
Posts: 81

I don't see what everyone's problem with Grafitti is. From my past experience, conforming to a given set of characters (which takes all of about 20 minutes to learn) is much easier than trying to figure out the different ways that you can write the letter "K" and have the device recognize it. Other than left handed support, I'd say that they could leave Grafitti the way that it is now.

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

The problem with Grafitti, is that the human needs to adapt to the computer. True handwriting recognition has the computer adapt to the user...a MUCH more user-centric concept.

True handwriting recogniton can understand the way you write...you do not have to modify your handwriting at all, the computer simply learns your handwriting, and, as you get use it more, the computer gets "smarter."

The late-model Newtons came close to this. If you have ever used a Newton, you will understand how poor the concept of grafitti is.

Considering that Newtons have been "dead" for quite a few years now, Apple's handwriting software should be flawless at this point (since they never sold the Newton technology, I would guess that they have been working on it internally for some time). Since Steve Jobs has publicly stated that he is workind with Palm, let's hope the Newton's handwriting recognition makes it into the Palm OS.

Registered: Nov 1999
Location:
Posts: 37

This handwriting recognition seems to be a pretty big deal. You can try it out on the net, writing with your mouse of course. The recognition is great!!
www.paragraph.com/javapad/javpad.html

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Metro Station, Hollywood and Highland
Posts: 1018

Homer,

At the risk -- no, certainty -- of being a broken record on this, I owned a Newton, and could never get the handwriting recognition to work. I'm not exaggerating at all when I say that not once in 18 months was I ever able to write one single sentence without making at least one mistake, usually more. And I spent hours and hours "teaching" it my handwriting, just as Apple instructed the user to do.

I think natural HR is wonderful as a concept, but the reality has been dismal. The Newton was even lampooned for this in a Doonsbury strip, where the guy wrote one sentence and the Newton displayed a completely different one.

Nobody "likes" Graffiti because they take it for granted. The reason I don't take it for granted is that on my first evening with the Palm, I was so excited just to be able to enter text at all! For every mistake I made on the Palm, I must have made five or six on the Newton. On the Newton I spent maybe 20% of my time writing and 80% correcting what I wrote. You can probably tell from the number of posts I've made on this topic that I've been scarred for life.

Again, in theory, natural handwriting recognition is more logical, but I return to the typing analogy I made in a previous post. Anyone can use a keyboard, even if it's not "natural." With practice you can build proficiency. Most importantly, if you find yourself getting wrong letters, you can be sure that you're hitting the wrong keys. That's what makes Graffiti reliable: correct input guarantees correct output.

I think Microsoft had a better version of Graffiti with Jot, which they've now abandoned. I do hope that Transcriber actually delivers what the Newton only promised.