Registered: Jul 2000
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Not that I think it's quite at the same level, but I'm sure that it was 'normal and natural' for Jeffery Dahmer to want to kill and eat people from his perspective, but that doesn't mean it's 'normal and natural' for society as a whole. By that same token, I can't see how one could argue that not having any desire to look at porn is abnormal and unnatural (which is the implication of porn being 'normal and natural' on a societal level).

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

Re: Can't help myself...

quote:

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Originally posted by K. Cannon
Question from a female perspective: Where do you (meaning you generally, not you, homer only) draw the line at what is "normal" and "natural"? Viewing porn daily? Viewing porn once a month? Never leaving your computer?

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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

Re: Re: Can't help myself...

Many thanks to all of you fellows for your thoughtful and honest replies. And to think I was afraid of your responses!!

The following from d-r sums up what I think is generally most women's opposition to porn:

quote:

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Originally posted by dick-richardson

I'm lucky, in that my wife considers it rather flattering that she's on my mind as much as she is (not to mention that she doesn't feel pressured to match my libido).

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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

Re: Re: Re: Can't help myself...

quote:

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Originally posted by K. Cannon
Many thanks to all of you fellows for your thoughtful and honest replies. And to think I was afraid of your responses!!

The following from d-r sums up what I think is generally most women's opposition to porn:



(Mind you, this question is not only for dick-r)
First, how is it that your significant other can be "on your mind" when you're looking at someone else?

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-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Last edited by dick-richardson on 06-05-2001 at 04:53 PM

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:

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generally, not you, homer only) draw the line at what is "normal" and "natural"? Viewing porn daily? Viewing porn once a month? Never leaving your computer? What if your girlfriend/spouse doesn't like it? Too bad?

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

quote:

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Originally posted by homer

Women and men treat sex completely different. I can't speak for all men, but for a lot of men (my self included) porn is just another part of being a male. It isn't a replacement for a loving relationship nor does it compete with a loving relationship.

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I agree that women and men treat sex in very different ways. My question there went more to the specific statement of d-r, wherein he said his wife was flattered b/c he was thinking of her...I was confused by his "thinking of her" while looking at picture of someone else. He clarified and said he was talking about masturbation only--evidently no pics involved.

Does the fact that "men look at porn" mean "porn is just another part of being a male?" Isn't that sort of self-serving and/or self-fulfilling? (Pun intended )

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

quote:

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Originally posted by homer

Basically, if your personal behavior does not affect others in a detrimental way, then no one should be arrogant enough as to pass judgement on you.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
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quote:

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Originally posted by K. Cannon
Does the fact that "men look at porn" mean "porn is just another part of being a male?" Isn't that sort of self-serving and/or self-fulfilling? (Pun intended )

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

Re: Re: Re: Re: Can't help myself...

quote:

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Originally posted by dick-richardson

She's tried. I'm young. The tables will be turned.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can't help myself...

quote:

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Originally posted by K. Cannon
Also, from other posts of yours that I've seen, I thought you were in your late 20's early 30's. Don't guys peak out at 18?

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I still think that's a myth. I think that 18 is just one of the last times in a guy's life where he has the time and energy to spend that much time on it. If I had as much free time now as I did then, I don't think there would be much difference.

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can't help myself...

quote:

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Originally posted by Toby


I still think that's a myth

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can't help myself...

quote:

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Originally posted by K. Cannon
Like the "all men look at porn" and its converse, "to be a man you must look at porn" myths?

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Yeah, I think those are myths too, created by men who want to rationalize their porn fixations. This isn't a new thing, though.

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can't help myself...

quote:

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Originally posted by Toby


Yeah, I think those are myths too, created by men who want to rationalize their porn fixations. This isn't a new thing, though.

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Registered: May 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 98

How did I miss THIS thread.... So much to process, so little time....

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Registered: Jun 2000
Location:
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quote:

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Originally posted by Slot_Machine
How did I miss THIS thread....

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I know what you mean .... I guess you could say this thread's "got legs," eh?....

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"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds." -- Albert Einstein

Registered: Jun 2000
Location:
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quote:

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Originally posted by icthus
It's also notable to consider the Christian belief along with that; that people are naturally evil, and therefore their normal and natural desires are evil. As a Christian theologian, his statement that it is normal and natural wouldn't have been in anyway justifying it; rather, it would have been condeming.

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Methinks I smell the feminine perspective herein.... (And there's nothing wrong w/that -- I love the scent of a woman, as everyone knows....)
Anyway, I think Peck touches on that in one of his books -- that it's old Greek mythology, or something; and I believe he states it's largely discounted / discredited in modern times / thinking / theory. I'll admit it's kind of scary that it can be seen to have even a grain of truth, though -- and much more, if you're willing to "admit it into evidence."
I'm not, though, despite Peck's persistent admonition that it's IMPORTANT to see that "Life is Difficult," his ultra-famous 1st sentence from his ultra-famous 1st book. And it's IMPORTANT to fight AGAINST our impulse(s) (natural or unnatural -- I guess that will always be the question) for pleasure.
STILL, almost ALL we know as humans is GUIDED by "the pleasure principle" -- we gravitate toward + and away from - otherwise we'd just walk right out in front of cars, I guess.
MY QUESTION TO GOD, IN ANSWER TO PECK'S BOOK, AND ALL OF HIS WORKS (AND TO PECK, WHICH I DON'T THINK HE'S EVER ANSWERED) WOULD BE:
IF IGNORANCE IS BLISS -- WHY SHOULD IT BE SO?
WHY IS LEARNING, ACHIEVING, "DOING THE RIGHT THING," ETC. DIFFICULT?
SHOULDN'T IT BE THE OPPOSITE?
(With apologies to the late, great Douglas Adams, whose every book I own, I believe -- but not yet read any! ... I could see some author calling this Design of the Universe ... just STUPID!)

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can't help myself...

quote:

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Originally posted by K. Cannon
Well, I guess I know that men (generally speaking) are more turned on by visual things than women. <snip> But I'm more turned on by <snip>

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I wanted to respond to many of the last 10 or so responses either you made or were made to you -- I hope they work up a "1-click" way to do this in the future. (Or multi-click & drag, or something.)
But I thought many of the answers given were excellent, so I also didn't have to bother.
I tend to fall back on John Gray's "Mars & Venus" materials (all of his books, not just the #1 one, tho reading that's better than nothing, and more than most people prob. living before he wrote learned about the geners in their lifetimes) for the major diff. between the genders. I find them pretty unequaled.
I grew up in an atrocious, hideous time (pre-John Gray) when people were trying to pretend MEN AND WOMEN ARE THE SAME. GOD HELP YOU if you actually SAID IT OUT LOUD for a decade or two there.
You may have seen a recent "60 Min." (or other show -- many covered it) where some poor young lad was "turned into a girl" because of a medical problem at his birth -- but he has the spirit of a male inside him, and "it just didn't take." This, despite a famous MD's insistence that "the operation was a success," the boy became a girl, etc. and perpetual lies for another couple dozen years.
NOW PEOPLE REALIZE that men & women are diff., thank God. I fought society all my life to make this case. I was called stupid, insulted, "just a dumb kid," etc. as I lived through "Idiot Time" (where, coincidentally, the entire stupid society was doing drugs like there was no tomorrow ... a connection?), trying to get the world to see clearly.
I hope God throws me a big "Thank You" when I get to Heaven, as the world doesn't tend to be thankful for much.

Something CRUCIAL to Gray's work, though, that most people seem to miss is NOT TO DEMONIZE THE OTHER GENDER JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE DIFF.

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"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds." -- Albert Einstein

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Prison
Posts: 421

Well,

Well, perhaps the reasons people go WITH their impulses (what FEEEEELS good) instead of going against them in certain causes is 2 things:

1) "ME.' No, I'm not talking about some crappy version of Windows, it's that people seem to think far more about themselves this day in age. I bet "your lady" wouldn't be too happy now if she found "her man" discussing this. (Sorry bkbk, I just had to say that! ) It shows a sense of loyalty to your "partner."

2) Immediate Gratification. Ever notice how things seem more rewarding when you go against your immediate desires and wait? I'm guessing sex is the same way. The more you wait, (the more you EARN it) , the more you appreciate it. Kind of like the phrase "Honest money goes further."

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Yes, I believe I can see a lot of this stuff.
I think the question being begged is:
Is This The Way It's Meant To Be?
This begs a ton of other q's, of course:
Is there a God?
(2 possible branches)
If there's a God, do we REALLY have Free Will -- or is it "free, as long as you make God happy"?
Is evolution "real" and "absolute" -- or could things have turned out another way?
Which things?
Which way(s)?
Just because (any given) society "evolved" this way -- was it "fate"?
Can it be changed -- now?
Ever?
Anytime we wish?

As I say, there are a ton.
Some in the ton, many people don't want to face -- and they MEAN IT.
And some of these people have guns. And some will shoot you just because "their boss" told them to, and they have a license to kill. And how DARE you suggest a concept "diff" from what the gunman w/the boss "likes."
I hate to seem like I'm always going back to the neo-Nazism of the Guiliani regime here in NYC -- but NO PORN is a big part of what he's about.
Yeah, the guy currently cheating on his wife all over the headlines. RESTRAINING ORDERS. DIVORCE. "POISINING THE KIDS' MINDS" AGAINST THE OTHER PARENT.
Uh ... and this is better than porn?
YOU are a better person than "those pornographers"?
Uh ... just how, exactly?

A key question neither gender (nor church, state or any other inst.) ever seems to want to contemplate very much is:
Are women "naturally" monogamous?
Are men "naturally" not?

You're right; I wouldn't DARE even bring up these Qs in front of my current lady. But (I don't think) not because I'm a "bad person," or the Qs are "invalid" or "nonsensical" etc.
It's just that there is such a TIDAL WAVE of opposition, it's better to remain anonymous.
(I don't know what I'd do w/out the Web; I hope we can always keep it relatively anonymous.)

I noted "current" lady.
How many have I had?
Was it enough?
Will there be more?
Was it too many?
Can I go back and change it?
If I "go back" to "my 1st one," does that ... absolve me ... of something? to someone? for some reason?
WOMEN, TOO:
Should they date multiple guys at once?
Should they pay for dinner?
Should they drive?
If they NEVER intend to have sex w/you ... should they TELL YOU on the 1st date?
Etc.

MUCH OF THESE ARGUMENTS ARE FINANCIAL.
(I was pretty irked at Dr. Peck in one of his books -- "Civility Re-Discovered," I think it's titled, or sub-titled -- where it was CLEAR that his SUBCONSCIOUS was TRYING for about 1/2 of the book to FINALLY get him to WRITE DOWN what was at the forefront of the point he was TRYING to make: THAT A LOT OF LIFE IS DETERMINED BY THE FINANCIAL ASPECT.)
MUCH OF LIFE ITSELF IS FORCED UPON US.
We're born AGAINST OUR WILL (or at least negligent of it).
We're IN DEBT UP TO OUR EARS to our parents (IF we're LUCKY; if not, our lives are MUCH harder) for MANY YEARS.
Do we "OWE THEM" for this?
WHAT do we "OWE THEM" for this?
WHAT do they "OWE US" for bringing us here -- esp. if "here" is not exactly a happy place / enviornment / home?
Etc.

THE MATTER OF CHOICE.
What IS choice?
Can you CHOOSE not to READ? Of course, you CAN. But would anyone in their right mind NOT?
BUT YOU CAN'T EVEN CHOOSE not to BREATHE, that's how important "God" (or ... SOMEone) made it.
Can you CHOOSE to have sex?
Really? When? With whom? How often?
Is that okay? With whom? The gov't.? Must you get a certificate 1st?
W/only 1 person?
1 gender?
No animals?
(Naaaaah! -- couldn't resist.)
Is it "okay" if you're insulted about it?
Really? When? With whom? How often?
Should people of different faiths / colors / countries marry? Or only have sex?

THE NATURE OF ILLUSION.
This is prob. the key to it all, and why Peck DEFINED (the ONLY definition I've EVER seen!) MENTAL HEALTH as:
"Ongoing Dedication to Reality at All Costs."
CANDY TASTES DANDY -- but it's NOT GOOD FOR YOU; it's an illusion!
Alcohol, ditto.
(Aristotle's definition of "GOOD FOR YOU": When it's ALWAYS good for you -- like fruit, vegetables and exercise. NOT alcohol, candy and drugs.)
Is it GOOD for me not to READ, or is it an illusion?
Is laziness real?
Is evil real?
Is the Devil real?
(Per "The Usual Suspects" -- "The Greatest Trick The Devil Ever Played Was Conning The World Into Believing He's Not Real." Are those "just movie words"? Or are they real?)
Etc.

"GRAY AREAS"
MUCH of the world (it is often missed) is B&W!
(As I hoped the DIGITALIZATION of almost EVERYthing has resoundingly proved.)
But there REALLY IS gray.
The diff., usually, is WHETHER OR NOT "UNKNOWN VARIABLES" ARE INVOLVED.
Since we're JUST FINALLY STARTING to understand THAT MEN & WOMEN REALLY ARE DIFF., we're FINALLY dispensing w/a lot of the unknown variables that resulted in lots of "gray areas" that kept us ignorant for milennia.
More Qs, then:
What do men / women like?
Is what they like GOOD -- for them, indiv? For society, indiv? For the World At Large? For the perpetuity of history? (And is THAT even important?)
Are humans even important?
(Most people just auto. declare we are, and that as an article of faith we can willy-nilly massacre ALL THE FISH, because they're NOT really animals -- ask PETA!)

Plenty of other stuff, too.
And I'm just throwing this all out there (gee, what gave it away?) -- not even trying to integrate it or synthesize it into a useful body of knowledge, which takes even more time & effort.
Once you're out of college, sadly, there's PRECIOUS LITTLE time or energy expended to answer (OR EVEN LOOK AT, RECONSIDER, CONTEMPLATE, ETC.) any of them.

Hopefully, PDAs (and robots) will free people from the drudgery of daily work -- and we'll finally (all of us ... even those of us long out of college, who should be included in the dialogue) begin to work on these questions earnestly.

__________________
"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds." -- Albert Einstein

Last edited by bkbk on 06-06-2001 at 05:12 AM

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Prison
Posts: 421

Woazza!!

You sounded just like a Greek philosopher. Whoever you're quoting has asked some deep questions I don't think I can answer without going further into my mind than I feel comfortable with right now. (hey, I'm being honest!):eed:

Nonetheless, I'll try and reply.

You also have to keep in mind that humans are creatures who value ignorance. We have a quest for knowledge, but always want to fall to the "comfort" of our own thoughts so that we feel we have control.

That is why, we have "etiquette" and "gender" roles on the more petty scale. On a larger scale, that's why we have religion: to explain the unexplained. I do feel that there will never be a day where man can answer every question there is with pure fact. There are things that happen that we cannot explain. When these things happen, we often rationalize with a belief that "comforts" us, and gives us some "reassurance" of our purpose. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. We can only look at things in our perception. What existed before the universe? You cannot answer that question truthfully other than "I don't know."

It goes back to saying that we feel we have a purpose on the earth: to help our fellow mankind. Most of us are born slaves by our own will. We feel we need to make some force out there "happy."

-------

Regardless of what your opinions are, the usual reason for avoiding temptation, is the reward afterwards, which is far greater. I know I would not feel the same if I simply stole my Visor, instead of working to get it. The same goes for sex. While I cannot say this from a first-hand experience, you will most likely become jaded (vocab word of the day! ) if you have it too often. However, our culture seems to focus on "immediate gratification" as opposed to waiting for it.

If Pornography keeps you from abusing your partner, then it is helpful. However, it shows a certain loyalty to your partner if you can remain faithful to them, and not fantasize physically about someone else. It's a little thing that depending on the person, can make an enormous difference.

Personally, I think our quest is for true happiness & existence.


Whew... I'm done.

I actually made this all up. Not bad... for me!?

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Note to bkbk , I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Just trying to clarify!

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