Registered: May 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 236

The Death of Graffiti

All these thumboards, Querty keyboards on the TREO, and Jeff Hawkins, one of the creators of it, even said in his keynote @ Comdex, "That graffiti might not be around in the future".

Am I worrried? Yes. I am the worst typer in the world @ 15-20 words per minute. Butt I can throw-down with graffiti.

I have been watching all these CNET and comdex videos. All they show is the Treo with the keypad. What about the treo 180g?

I am getting Treo-Overload!!! I want one, and I want the color one tomorrow.

Why couldnt they make a Treo with a collapsible graffiti area, and some kind of memory expansion like SD?
HEY PALM, THERE IS AN IDEA FOR YOU?

Save graffiti!!!!!!!

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Hey baby before we start do you mind if we use my M505?
No not for that!!!!!!!!!!
Use it to reffer to PalmaSutra, silly???????

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3

I've got a feeling that if handheld devices are going to remain truely handheld then there will always be a place for graffiti.

The only reason that keyboards have been released for palm-type devices (imo) is to help to convert laptop users over to the handheld market. Although many people have no problem picking up the idea behind graffiti (it's pretty intuitive afterall). I'm sure that there are 3 people in every 4 who just "wouldn't get it" or would be reluctant to learn a new idea.

The biggest problem that graffiti has is it's new and different to a keyboard. But the perhaps size of keyboards will always help graffiti to keep a share of the market.



Mike

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Texan in Calgary for a while
Posts: 1361

Well in the case of the Treo, a keyboard really makes since because of SMS.

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James Hromadka
Old Friend

Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Posts: 1571

No thumb yay graffiti

quote:

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Originally posted by JHromadka
Well in the case of the Treo, a keyboard really makes since because of SMS.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Plant City, FL
Posts: 385

The "shift" to thumboards (maybe it's better to call it "hype" at this point) is for several valid reasons:

1) Graffiti requires two handed operation.

2) High levels of Graffiti accuracy are difficult to achieve without regular use. Yeah, if you use it all the time, you can probably enter text pretty reliably ... but most PDA users enter very little info directly into the PDA. Most data entry is done in a desktop PIM and the data is sync'd to the handheld. I know there are people out there who hardly ever use Graffiti and can still pick up a stylus and get 100% accuracy - but they're definitely a minority.

3) Graffiti requires some amount of training. For some users it doesn't take much, but I'd bet everyone has had to look at a Graffiti reference at least once. Quick! what's the Graffiti stroke for the tilde character?? It's punct-shift-backwards-N ... and I know that some folks would have had to look that up (myself included).

Of course thumboards have their downsides too:

1) Slower data entry. I'm guessing that the fastest Graffiti writer can blow away the fastest thumb typer.

2) Difficulty entering non-alpha-numeric or non-english characters (though the later can be addressed to some extent by localized hardware).

3) Precludes the use of Graffiti overlay keyboards like Fitaly. This is a big minus for me because I can hit 50 wpm on my Fitaly stamp and I know that thumb typing is never going to come close to that for me.

4) Precludes the use of hacks that look for pen strokes in the Graffiti area.

Unfortunately, the thumboard downsides are disadvantages for power-users while the Graffiti downsides are disadvantages for casual users. Since the casual users have us outnumbered by a wide margin, I think we might be in trouble. Hopefully Handspring (and others) will continue to offer devices with both flavors of input methods, but I really have my doubts that the market will support this in the long term.

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<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>

Registered: Nov 2001
Location:
Posts: 2

I am not a big fan of the keyboard options outside the external Keyboards. Size needs to always be a major consideration when dealing with PDA's, and any built in keyboard seems to be a waste of space. I don't want to fumble with having to use a stylus and keyboard at the same time... it is to awkward.

I would rather see Visor drop the silkscreened area, increase the screen size, and then redo the software so you can have that silk screened area popup via software or just be able to write on the screen and have it automatically convert to text (like JOT).

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

quote:

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Originally posted by pacco883
I am not a big fan of the keyboard options outside the external Keyboards. Size needs to always be a major consideration when dealing with PDA's, and any built in keyboard seems to be a waste of space.

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Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Mineola, NY USA
Posts: 161

Plus ca change plus la meme chose

I find this thread kind of interesting from a historical point of view.

I started using a "pda" back before the Palm Pilot, when there were only "organizers". I started with the Sharp YO-610 and progressed thru the 9xxx series and several of the Zaurus models.

When the Palm first came out and the battle raged between Palm vs. Sharp users (much like the present Palm v. Pocket PC but more bitter) one of the major lines of contention was the efficiency and ease of use of Graffiti vs the Keyboard; how people held the Zaurus (and HP) when typing, what fingers they used etc. when typed on the keyboard.

When the HP-200LX and original MS Handheld Computers bit the dust (commercially that is) I thought the battle had been won, keyboards seemed so old-fashioned. Back then everyone thought the next battle would be Graffitti/HWR vs. Voice.

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-Michael-

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aberdeen, SD
Posts: 2531

I thought one of the main selling points for the snap-n-type (or what of the thumbboard add-ons) was speed. Push a button for "n" vs writing it out? Even the majority of hunt-n-peckers write faster than they would with pen and paper.

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-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Registered: Feb 2000
Location:
Posts: 638

What I want to know is weither or not the screen writing hacks are going to work with the Treo 270k. I could write on the screen and it would work, but I don't know if this will work with the keyboard version or not. Did they delete the part of the OS where they have the grafitti, or is it still there with a patch on top to run the keyboard?


BEN

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

Qwerty keyboards are not efficient unless they are full size.

Graffiti is a poor excuse for handwriting recognition.

Once palm (if ever) get's around to figuring out handwriting recognition (or buys it from Apple), there will be no reason to stick with Grafitti.

As for keyboards, things like Fitaly are the way to go. Qwerty is only designed for two-handed, full-size keyboard typing.

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 66

Don't forget that the Blackberry RIM is swarming the industry because of its always on email and thumb keyboard.

I love thumboards, I don't have the patience to learn grafiti. I use a Mortola t900 and its great. Learned how to use the thumboard in 1-2 days.

Woo hoo go thumboards!

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Elkins Park, Pa
Posts: 577

The only reason I'm against a keyboard is that I've tried so hard and devoted so much time to learning graffiti. And neither keyboard nor handwriting recognition sounds half as cool as "graffiti". On the other hand, despite all the time I've devoted to learning it, I still have not mastered graffiti. I could go either way.

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-Bernie

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 366

The only problems I have with some of these thumbboards is their implimentation of extended characters. I use my Visor to do my French homework and use many characters that have accent marks that I hear are difficult to impossible to do on these thumbboards.

Jason

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Did you just go near a burning hot river of lava or are you just happy to see me?

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Dayton, TN, USA
Posts: 66

fitaly

I never got the hang of graffiti. I mean, I could make it work, but SLOWLY and with lots of mistakes. I've been using the fitaly-stamp keyboard (little plastic overlay for the graffiti area) for a long time now, and I love it. I can "type" on it fast enough to take notes. Whenever I tried to take notes with graffiti, I felt like a scribbling maniac.

Anyway, I'd love to see a "keyboard" on one of these new PDAs that the keys can be rearranged, or offerred in different configurations. For single-finger/stylus typing, FITALY rocks. QWERTY is only good because we all know it. ABCDEF is rather disingenuous. Or maybe somebody could develop a keyboard layout that is optimized for two thumbs. (FITALY is optimized for one-digit input.)

Anyway, just my thoughts. A QWERTY keyboard is good only because we're used to it. For that matter, that's why nobody used D'VORAK keyboards at their desks.

Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Metro Station, Hollywood and Highland
Posts: 1018

I've always liked Graffiti, which was a godsend compared to my Newton 110's HWR, which never worked as advertised -- possibly because I'm left-handed. Bill Gates, another southpaw, had the same problem with the first WinCE prototypes to come out of MS' R&D, so they switched to miniature keyboards. When the Pilot critical massed with Graffiti, it was clear the the market found block character recognition more practical for PIMs.

Let's be clear about this: no one likes Graffiti, but unlike theoretically superior alternatives, most people can actually use it.

But Graffiti works best for short entries: names, phone numbers, addresses, lists, etc. For a 250-word email, my experience with the Blackberry is that thumb typing is better suited for the task. RIM hasn't been given enough credit for improving the design of small keyboards (which I usually hate) with tapered, non-contiguous keys. The early WinCE keyboard models were a pain to use, since they required some effort to avoid hitting neighboring keys.

Equally important is dialing. It's faster to dial the first two or three letters -- like "ste" to look up or call Stephanie -- than to use a stylus; and this can be done with one hand. The silkscreen means that cell phone users won't have physical keys to push when dialing a number. That's probably acceptable for PDA fans, but not normal cell phone users. Hawkins was probably more concerned with improving the numeric keypad interface than he was in improving the silkscreen interface.

So for messaging and dialing, the thumboard is the way to go with the Treo, but not necessarily the rest of Handspring's product line. I don't think we're witnessing the death of Graffiti.

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Eye of Gameboy

Last edited by Gameboy70 on 11-16-2001 at 05:49 AM

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Nebraska- the Good life
Posts: 695

This is actually a rather humerous discussion.

You see, in the adaptive technology field, there are dozens of different types of keyboards and input devices, with several different layouts.

The thing is that NO ONE keyboard or layout will satisfy every need. People entering a lot of text from a stable surface will benefit the most from a full-size eyboard (like Stow-a-Way), but this is a different need than the person just trying to enter a quick note on the fly that rarely enters data directly (thumb board, Grafitti, or on-screen keyboard solutions for this person).

I doubt Grafitti or Jot will die. They are reasonably simple, take up few resources, and are just too dang handy for a decent percentage of users.

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Out of my skull, back in five minutes
Posts: 1435

humerus? the bone of the upper arm?
Funny, I don't do any writing or typing with my upper arms. I guess it's possible, tho ...

oh, like you don't pick on people for silly things.


On topic -
I use Graffiti for short things, the on-screen keyboard for longer things, and a Stowaway for *really* long things. I think theyall have their uses and since a standardized handwriting system is much more efficient (i.e. would take up less RAM/ROM) than a user-specific handwriting recognition system there's no reason to think it will go away soon. The Newton's biggest failing was its HRS, after all.

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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 832

quote:

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Originally posted by Alslayer

I love thumboards, I don't have the patience to learn grafiti. I use a Mortola t900 and its great. Learned how to use the thumboard in 1-2 days.

Woo hoo go thumboards!

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Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 604

I use both a Visor Prism and a Blackberry 957. I consider myself to be pretty good with Graffiti - my Prism is my third Palm OS device.

That said, I'll be getting on board the thumboard bandwagon, probably via a Treo. Graffiti is fine for short entries, but a thumb keyboard is much better (IMHO) for medium length pieces, like your typical email.

The thing I'm excited about is a thumboard AND a touch-sensitive screen. I love the Blackberry's keyboard, but it drives me nuts that the screen isn't touch-sensitive. Some things are quicker with a stylus.