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septimus
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

quote:
Originally posted by chuckster
well, I agree with this as well. This is the major flaw with almost all organized religions. I don't want to bring specific religions into the discussion, because that would just be asking for trouble, but my religion does not base any of it's beliefs on such comprimises.

Figures: as soon as we agree on something, I have to go and start another argument.

1) I don't think it's a flaw. If a religion is organized, then it's made up of many people, and therefore its tenants will be a compromise of some sort.

2) Are you a Gnostic? Even they based their religion on compromise. And all the other Xn branches shoot off from the main branch, starting with the great schism of 1054 bewteen the Romans and the Orthodox. If you're a part of an organized religion, especially a Xn one, you've got compromise in your religious roots.

EDIT: I just researched the Nicene, I forgot that the council of Nicea was the first big ecumenical council, in 325. So, I guess I'm curious what branch of Xty doesn't owe anything to the decisions made in 325?

FINAL EDIT: I love trouble.

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Last edited by septimus on 08-22-2001 at 02:16 PM

08-22-2001 02:08 PM

homer
Member

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:
I don't want to bring specific religions into the discussion, because that would just be asking for trouble, but my religion does not base any of it's beliefs on such comprimises.

Heaven's Gate?

(just kidding!

)

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08-22-2001 02:39 PM

chuckster
Member

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Maryland Go Terps!
Posts: 59

quote:
Originally posted by dietrichbohn

Figures: as soon as we agree on something, I have to go and start another argument.

yeah it figures...I don't feel as though we are arguing. Just a healthy discussion.

quote:

1) I don't think it's a flaw. If a religion is organized, then it's made up of many people, and therefore its tenants will be a compromise of some sort.

If the religion was organized through revelation, then no compromise is necessary. It will be God's way, and none other.

quote:

2) Are you a Gnostic? Even they based their religion on compromise. And all the other Xn branches shoot off from the main branch, starting with the great schism of 1054 between the Romans and the Orthodox. If you're a part of an organized religion, especially a Xn one, you've got compromise in your religious roots.

EDIT: I just researched the Nicene, I forgot that the council of Nicea was the first big ecumenical council, in 325. So, I guess I'm curious what branch of Xty doesn't owe anything to the decisions made in 325?

No, I am not a Gnostic. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (more commonly known as the Mormon Church). If you would like, I'll explain to you the origin of the church.

quote:

FINAL EDIT: I love trouble.

I personally try to avoid heated arguments about religion. If one starts up, I politely walk away. I would rather do that than say something I might regret later.

08-22-2001 02:50 PM

septimus
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

quote:
Originally posted by chuckster
If the religion was organized through revelation, then no compromise is necessary. It will be God's way, and none other.

...I disagree, because revelation is prone to interpretation. Unless each and every member is personally, constantly, and eternally struck by god himself directly revealing himself, every organized religion will have interpretation, and therefore compromise when interpretations differ.

quote:
I personally try to avoid heated arguments about religion. If one starts up, I politely walk away. I would rather do that than say something I might regret later.

If you like, I can lay out why I believe that the Mormon church does, in fact, have interpreation and compromise within its central tenets. But, as you've said, we're walking over dangerous ground here, and so I agree with you that we just walk away, disagreeing about the nature of your religion (and maybe about the possiblity of uncompromised organized religion)

...btw: thanks, Chuckster.

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08-22-2001 03:03 PM

chuckster
Member

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Maryland Go Terps!
Posts: 59

quote:
Originally posted by dietrichbohn

...I disagree, because revelation is prone to interpretation. Unless each and every member is personally, constantly, and eternally struck by god himself directly revealing himself, every organized religion will have interpretation, and therefore compromise when interpretations differ.

If you like, I can lay out why I believe that the Mormon church does, in fact, have interpreation and compromise within its central tenets. But, as you've said, we're walking over dangerous ground here, and so I agree with you that we just walk away, disagreeing about the nature of your religion (and maybe about the possiblity of uncompromised organized religion)

...btw: thanks, Chuckster.

So i guess we agree to disagree. I'm okay with that. Thanks to you as well.

BTW if you have any questions with regards to the Mormon church, I would be glad to answer them (perhaps clear up any misconceptions that you may have). I would rather that be through e-mail ([email protected]) and not a disscussion board though.

08-22-2001 03:13 PM

septimus
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

quote:
Originally posted by chuckster
BTW if you have any questions with regards to the Mormon church, I would be glad to answer them (perhaps clear up any misconceptions that you may have). I would rather that be through e-mail ([email protected]) and not a disscussion board though.

Well, I admit that I've probably got some misconceptions about the Mormon church, but hopefully fewer than the general public. I've always had a soft spot for the Mormon church, as the only church ever to be run out of the United States simply for their beliefs (for those who don't know, Utah wasn't in the U.S. when they were forced to leave). On the scale of deserving retribution for religious persecution, Mormonism is about as high up on the scale as a Xn denomination can get.

My beliefs about the inability for an uncompromised organized religion to exist don't stem from the Mormon church specifically, but rather from a certain knowledge and believe about the systems of communication and meaning that we use, and the application of those ideas to various systems, including the Mormon church (though, as I said, to a lesser extent than most other Xn denominations).

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08-22-2001 03:27 PM

chuckster
Member

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Maryland Go Terps!
Posts: 59

quote:
Originally posted by dietrichbohn

Well, I admit that I've probably got some misconceptions about the Mormon church, but hopefully fewer than the general public. I've always had a soft spot for the Mormon church, as the only church ever to be run out of the United States simply for their beliefs (for those who don't know, Utah wasn't in the U.S. when they were forced to leave). On the scale of deserving retribution for religious persecution, Mormonism is about as high up on the scale as a Xn denomination can get.

My beliefs about the inability for an uncompromised organized religion to exist don't stem from the Mormon church specifically, but rather from a certain knowledge and believe about the systems of communication and meaning that we use, and the application of those ideas to various systems, including the Mormon church (though, as I said, to a lesser extent than most other Xn denominations).

I hope that you have fewer misconceptions than the general public as well. That is the reason why I perfer talking about specific religions away from a public message board. People will read what is said and take things out of context, etc. More misconceptions are made and so on. When things are taken out of context, thats about all that can happen.

On a side note, Dietrichbohn, you must read a lot huh? I'm sure you have read a number of interesting papers/books about religious beliefs. I enjoy reading about different beliefs. Any recomendations for me to read?

08-22-2001 03:41 PM

septimus
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

quote:
Originally posted by chuckster
I hope that you have fewer misconceptions than the general public as well.

Me too, but I guess I usually try to assume that I have more than enough!

quote:
That is the reason why I perfer talking about specific religions away from a public message board. People will read what is said and take things out of context, etc. More misconceptions are made and so on. When things are taken out of context, thats about all that can happen.

Agreed!

quote:
On a side note, Dietrichbohn, you must read a lot huh? I'm sure you have read a number of interesting papers/books about religious beliefs. I enjoy reading about different beliefs. Any recomendations for me to read?

I read a fair amount. I know what I do about religion for two reasons: a philosophy degree from a Catholic College and a theology requirement at a Catholic College. I chose to fill the requirement by taking serious classes instead of fluff, and the philosophy degree was meant for those in seminary, so although I altered it to my own methods, I learned quite a bit of apology.

I guess it depends on what you're interested in. If you'd like some good xn history, there's a book called The Christians as the Roman Saw Them by Robert Wilken. It's pretty good for early xn history.

...

I'll have to check at home for more...

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08-22-2001 03:56 PM

chuckster
Member

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Maryland Go Terps!
Posts: 59

quote:
Originally posted by dietrichbohn

I read a fair amount. I know what I do about religion for two reasons: a philosophy degree from a Catholic College and a theology requirement at a Catholic College. I chose to fill the requirement by taking serious classes instead of fluff, and the philosophy degree was meant for those in seminary, so although I altered it to my own methods, I learned quite a bit of apology.

I guess it depends on what you're interested in. If you'd like some good xn history, there's a book called The Christians as the Roman Saw Them by Robert Wilken. It's pretty good for early xn history.

...

I'll have to check at home for more...

thnx. I could tell that you have an extensive background in religion. And it makes sense just from your views that you studied Philosophy. Just out of curiosity what school did you go to?

I haven't had the chance to study many religions in depth as of yet. (The most that I did was while I was a missionary in South America). I would like to do more though. I seem to be bogged down with my own studies (Computer Science at the University of Maryland), and with church responsibilities (I am a youth leader as well)...and then there is work. I can't find time for anything it seems like. Oh well, I'll have all the time I would like once I finish school. I will try to read any books that you mention though.

08-22-2001 04:16 PM

septimus
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Them Twin Cities
Posts: 1758

quote:
Originally posted by chuckster
Just out of curiosity what school did you go to?

University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, MN.

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08-22-2001 04:24 PM

homer
Member

Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1683

quote:
No, I am not a Gnostic. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (more commonly known as the Mormon Church). If you would like, I'll explain to you the origin of the church.

Chuckster:

Isn't the issue of polygamy a compromised issue? And are there some compromises in terms of the required (?) missionary work? (I am by no means an expert on religion, so feel free to correct me.)

I really wish the study of religions was an accepted subject in our schools earlier than College. One problem in this country (and I am sure, in others) is that we are taught only one religion, usually via our parents, and we are taught that that is the 'right' religion.

I think if we were all exposed to the broader education of theology (and the ideas of philosphy) that's we probably be a much more tolerant society.

Which, in turn would probably mean that there would be less of a need for the death penalty!

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08-22-2001 08:45 PM

chuckster
Member

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Maryland Go Terps!
Posts: 59

quote:
Originally posted by homer

Chuckster:

Isn't the issue of polygamy a compromised issue? And are there some compromises in terms of the required (?) missionary work? (I am by no means an expert on religion, so feel free to correct me.)

I am sure that the public would consider ending polygamy in order for Utah to become a state, a comprimise. Little known to the public, is how the practice of polygamay originated, and also the reason for it's termination. It was not origionally practiced. Through a revelation (the public doesn't believe that Joseph Smith received revelation, and therefore this argument would be invalid. Nonetheless, it is my belief) the church was told to practice polygamy in a time of heavy persecution. Many of the men had died, children had been left fatherless, and mothers were left as widows. There were many more women than men in the church (because of persecution). To support these women and children, polygamy was practiced. When the church ended this practice, in was because the Lord (once again through revelation) told the prophet (at this time it was Wilford Woodruff) that the practice was to be stopped. See, http://scriptures.lds.org/od/1 for details. It is a belief that as members of the church we must obey the law of the land. It is one of the churches "Articles of Faith". See: http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1 Look at number 12 (we believe in being subject to kings...and honoring and sustaining the law).

As for missionary work, no one is REQUIRED to be a missionary. It is by choice. I served a mission because I had the desire to go, not becasue someone told me that I had to do it.

BTW, I am by no means an expert on religions either. That is why I enjoy talking about different beliefs.

quote:

I really wish the study of religions was an accepted subject in our schools earlier than College. One problem in this country (and I am sure, in others) is that we are taught only one religion, usually via our parents, and we are taught that that is the 'right' religion.

I think if we were all exposed to the broader education of theology (and the ideas of philosphy) that's we probably be a much more tolerant society.

Which, in turn would probably mean that there would be less of a need for the death penalty!

agreed.

Last edited by chuckster on 08-23-2001 at 03:04 AM

08-22-2001 09:26 PM

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