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Fat_Man
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Registered: Dec 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by robert sibell
FOR ALL WE KNOW HANDSPRING COULD RELEASE A COLOR UNIT WE COULD ONLY DREAM OF IN LESS THAN 5 MONTHS.

Highly unlikely!!!

....well at least not anytime soon.

People have been complaining "Why can't Palm or Handpsring produce a handheld similar to Sony's color Clie's?"

Well maybe the simple answer is that "They can't...at least not yet."

Before I get flamed...

For the Clie to display high 320x320 resolution and color with the current Motorola 33mhz processor, Sony have to use a separate graphic processor chip to handle the increase in resolution and color because unit will slow to a crawl if everything is done by the 33mhz processor. Sony have to re-route all the graphic applications to the controller chip. In other words, Sony needed to change both factory hardware and software to develope this Clie.

Sony has the resources to do so, Palm and Handspring do not.

For Palm and Handspring to adapt to this hardware modification, they will need to re-tool their factory to produce a Clie-like handheld using the current 33mhz processor. This just will not be feasible for Palm or Handspring to release a handheld comparible to the Clie anytime soon, since the new ARM processors and Palm OS that would supposedly handle the increase in resolution and color support.

Once the new ARM processor and the Palm OS 5.0 become available, then you may start seeing Handsprings and Palms with high resolution, color, virtal graffi, etc....

But just think of what Sony's third generation Clie's will be like? I seriously think that Sony is going after the handheld market like they went after the "Walkman" market in the past.


(Some of you may say "HandEra has a heldheld with high resolution", but I think I read somewhere that HandEra had to choose between high resolution OR color.)

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Last edited by Fat_Man on 09-19-2001 at 08:22 AM

Fat_Man is offline Old Post 09-19-2001 05:58 AM
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Wily
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Registered: Oct 1999
Location: Milpitas, CA, USA
Posts: 3

quote:
Originally posted by Fat_Man

Well maybe the simple answer is that "They can't...at least not yet."

Before I get flamed...

For the Clie to display high 320x320 resolution and color with the current Motorola 33mhz processor, Sony have to use a separate graphic processor chip to handle the increase in resolution and color because unit will slow to a crawl if everything is done by the 33mhz processor. Sony have to re-route all the graphic applications to the controller chip. In other words, Sony needed to change both factory hardware and software to develope this Clie.



Close. Very close. If you look, Handspring made the original 16bit color enhancement to the PalmOS, ie 3.5.2h. For a while there, ONLY Handspring could use it. Once Palm rolled it into PalmOS 4.0 though, Sony had access to 16bit color.

So, once Sony's hi-rez has been incorporated into the PalmOS, Handspring will be free to release Visors with hi-rez. The same holds true with HandEra's enhancement to the PalmOS.

Wily is offline Old Post 09-20-2001 12:40 AM
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robert sibell
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Posts: 313

Lazy Lazy Lazy

So Once Again, This Proves How Lazy Palm Is.

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robert sibell is offline Old Post 09-20-2001 03:07 AM
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Fat_Man
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quote:
Originally posted by Wily
Close. Very close. If you look, Handspring made the original 16bit color enhancement to the PalmOS, ie 3.5.2h. For a while there, ONLY Handspring could use it. Once Palm rolled it into PalmOS 4.0 though, Sony had access to 16bit color.

So, once Sony's hi-rez has been incorporated into the PalmOS, Handspring will be free to release Visors with hi-rez. The same holds true with HandEra's enhancement to the PalmOS.


Unfortunantly, not close at all.

That's just it, the Prism's 16-bit color is a modification of the Palm OS, however the Clie's high resolution is not as simple as a software modification. Sony had to use another piece of hardware, a graphic controller chip, to handle the increased processing power needed to run programs in high resolution. Without this chip, the main processor will need to work 4x's as hard to create color high-resolution 320x320 compare the low color resolution 160x160.

Palm or Handspring can use Sony's OS high-rez modification all they want to, but without hardware modifications using the graphic controller chip, their units will slow to a crawl ...maybe even slower than that!!!

So why can't Handspring or Palm just add the chip? Like I said in my first post, it's not as simple as that.

1. Palm and Handspring will probably need to change their whole manufacturing protocol to incoporate the new chip into the new units which will mean re-tooling they factories.

2. Palm and Handspring may NOT know how to do it. They may be good at producing PDA's, but they may be limited in their knowledge of graphic electronics. Sony, on the other hand, knows how to do it and has the resources.

3. Sony may have patented the graphic controller technology, therefore Palm or Handspring can't do it even if they knew how to do it.

4. Palm and Handspring may not want to produce a high resolution handheld anytme soon, until the new ARM processors and Palm OS 5.0 is out which may not be til fall next year.

Oh yeah,

Yes, HandEra has thier own form of high resolution, but their unit is monochrome. I remember reading that HandEra made the choice to offer increase resolution instead of color because with the current processor power, they can only offer one (color or high resolution), but not both options.

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Last edited by Fat_Man on 09-20-2001 at 04:14 AM

Fat_Man is offline Old Post 09-20-2001 03:40 AM
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Wily
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Okay ... once more since I seem to have left some things unsaid regarding how Palm does its licensing... (Or more correctly, what I recall about how Palm does its licensing.)

To sum it all up, the licensees can make modifications to the PalmOS to suit their particular needs, and Palm lets them have excluvisity for a while and then rolls it into the next OS release. Thus, you have Handspring with its 16bit color enhancement sitting out there on its own for about a year before palm released that enhancement in PalmOS 4.0.

So, the enhancements that have been made since then, both HandEra's 320x240 screen and Sony's 320x320 screen will be availible to other Palm licensees as soon as the excluvisity period is up.

quote:
Originally posted by Fat_Man


Palm or Handspring can use Sony's OS high-rez modification all they want to, but without hardware modifications using the graphic controller chip, their units will slow to a crawl ...maybe even slower than that!!!


Okay. The graphic controller is someone else's chip. As stated above, once Sony's excluvisity runs out, the enhancement to PalmOS that allows it to utilize a secondary chip to drive the LCD will be availible to the other licensees. I would expect to see Palm and Handspring color handhelds running the 320x320 screens in the near future.

As for the technical prowlness of the Handspring and Palm teams, I sincerely doubt that they couldn't do what Sony did. The biggest R&D expenditure was modifying the PalmOS to handle the external controller chip, not to dropping the controller chip onto the PCB.

Why didn't Palm or Handspring spend R&D money to do exactly what Sony did? Why re-invent the wheel? If they can use it x months after Sony debuts it, why should they spend the extra money to figure it out themselves. Why didn't Sony develop their own 16bit color for the 710N? Because they knew once the lockout time was up, they would have access to it. By the time Palm or Handspring researched it and finished working prototype that was ready for mass production, the time limit for Sony would have expired and Palm, et al. would have spent all that money on R&D for nothing.


Yes, HandEra has thier own form of high resolution, but their unit is monochrome. I remember reading that HandEra made the choice to offer increase resolution instead of color because with the current processor power, they can only offer one (color or high resolution), but not both options.



Yes. HandEra choose to increase resolution. Their market segment was and still is enterprise. For that market, color is not something they really care about. Increased resolution is something that you could probably get more people on. Also, once again, they could either spend the R&D money to develop their own 16 bit color and wait for when Palm could roll it into the PalmOS and use it then.

Anyhow, this is all I can coherently put in a post tonight. Fat_Man, feel free to disagree, but I don't think I left anything out this time. Hopefully, what I typed in also jibes with what all the other sites say about how Palm does its licensing. I think PalmInfocenter talks a little about in its review of the 610N.

Wily is offline Old Post 09-21-2001 08:21 AM
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Fat_Man
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quote:
Fat_Man, feel free to disagree,


I don't disagree with you. I am aware of the licensing agree between Palm and its licensees. However, I do believe that HandEra once said that their high resolution is exclusively theirs and is not bounded by Palm's licensing contract. Therefore, I'm not certain that everything is shared between Palm and it's licensees. I believe that modifications to the Palm OS itself is sharable under Palm's agreement, so Sony's use of the graghic control chip may not fall under the share-all agreement. Again, I don't exactly know.

quote:
Okay. The graphic controller is someone else's chip. As stated above, once Sony's excluvisity runs out, the enhancement to PalmOS that allows it to utilize a secondary chip to drive the LCD will be availible to the other licensees. I would expect to see Palm and Handspring color handhelds running the 320x320 screens in the near future.


Well, I guess you have to look at this from a practical and finacially feasible stand point. Do Palm and Handspring want to re-tool their production line to produce a high resolution handheld any time soon or do they want to wait until the ARM processor chip and Palm OS 5.0 to come out? Allegally, with the ARM chip and OS 5.0, color and high resolution should be supported without the use of the extra controller chip.

The thing is the new OS 5.0 is not near finished and the ARM chip just when into production a few months ago. Therefore, IMO, these new handhelds will not be out until late next year.

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Last edited by Fat_Man on 09-21-2001 at 08:10 PM

Fat_Man is offline Old Post 09-21-2001 07:53 PM
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robert sibell
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two things. what does R&D mean and stand for? second, wasent the dragon ball something something 66mhz processor supposed to come out this fall? now that is somethnig i could use.

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robert sibell is offline Old Post 09-21-2001 11:49 PM
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EJSHUMAK
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Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by robert sibell
two things. what does R&D mean and stand for? second, wasent the dragon ball something something 66mhz processor supposed to come out this fall? now that is somethnig i could use.



1) Research and Development-
2) Rumored -- not here yet-

EJSHUMAK is offline Old Post 09-21-2001 11:57 PM
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jeremyf
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quote:
Originally posted by Fat_Man (aka BS_Man)

1. Palm and Handspring will probably need to change their whole manufacturing protocol to incoporate the new chip into the new units which will mean re-tooling they factories.



Umm, didn't they have to "retool" their factories when they made the Prism and Edge? Don't they have to "retool" them when they started making all kinds of Springboard modules and accessories? Or their dozens of cases?

quote:

2. Palm and Handspring may NOT know how to do it. They may be good at producing PDA's, but they may be limited in their knowledge of graphic electronics. Sony, on the other hand, knows how to do it and has the resources.



Hmm, since Handspring wrote all the graphics software (including a lot of the software that Sony is using) and they were the first to use 16-bit hardware, I don't think it's above them.

quote:

3. Sony may have patented the graphic controller technology, therefore Palm or Handspring can't do it even if they knew how to do it.



Just about every part of my computer has about 4 patents on it. Does that mean that none of them have competitors?

quote:

4. Palm and Handspring may not want to produce a high resolution handheld anytme soon, until the new ARM processors and Palm OS 5.0 is out which may not be til fall next year.



The Platinum was released a year ago, and Handspring just tossed that for the updated Neo, and there weren't even any major technological advancements. Releasing a nice color PDA now (hi-res or not) and having an updated one in a year or a year and a half would probably be "good business sense."

jeremyf is offline Old Post 09-22-2001 12:52 AM
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Fat_Man
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Jeremy, if you really think that all I'm saying is "BS" then why respond? Yet, you took the time to break down my post piece by piece and inject your opinions to them.

Sincerely,

BS_Man

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Last edited by Fat_Man on 09-22-2001 at 06:22 AM

Fat_Man is offline Old Post 09-22-2001 03:48 AM
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Fat_Man
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Anyway, let me point out...

quote:
Umm, didn't they have to "retool" their factories when they made the Prism and Edge? Don't they have to "retool" them when they started making all kinds of Springboard modules and accessories? Or their dozens of cases?

Yes, producing the Edge and the Prism required Handspring to modify some of their production methods. However, (I do admit that I'm not an expert in this) the basic circuitry of these models remain very similar.

The addition of the graphic control chip would require a lot more than just making room on the circuit board for it and pop the little chip in. I would think that there needs to be numerous re-routing of circuits, new connections, plus divers that enable the main processor to recognize the graphic chip and selectively send only graphic information to the chip. Then the graphics chip must coordinate with the main processor to display data and high-resolution graphics in the screen.

OK, I admit don't know enough about the Clie's set-up, but that seem to be a whole lot more involved. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you can just pop the thing it...
quote:
Hmm, since Handspring wrote all the graphics software (including a lot of the software that Sony is using) and they were the first to use 16-bit hardware, I don't think it's above them.

And what "graphics software" are you talking about? What's 16-bit hardware?

First of all most of the "graphics software" in the Prism was written by Palm. Handspring modified the Palm Color OS to include 16-bit color, that's about all that they did. Except for the 16-bit color, there's not much difference software-wise between the Prism and the Palm IIIC.

Second, just because Handspring made a PDA display 16-bit color, it does not mean that they are the graphics masters. Hell, I could change the oil in my car, but I don't think that I can open my own auto-repair shop.

Third, most of the "graphics software" in the Sony Clie like gMovie and PG Pocket were by Sony.
quote:
Just about every part of my computer has about 4 patents on it. Does that mean that none of them have competitors?

That argument makes zero sense.

Just is just speculation, but by definition of a patent, if Sony has patented on their unqiue way to create color high resolution, and if that patent is valid, then by law no one can use that method without Sony's permission. Sorry to break the real world to ya, kid.
quote:
The Platinum was released a year ago, and Handspring just tossed that for the updated Neo, and there weren't even any major technological advancements. Releasing a nice color PDA now (hi-res or not) and having an updated one in a year or a year and a half would probably be "good business sense."

Good business sense? kid, do you even know what that is?

1. Would it be "good business sense" to release a "nice" color Handspring that's low-res and have it bomb because everyone is expecting a color high-res unit? The Pro and Neo only got... at best... a luke-warm reception when they were announced. The Pro and Neo are just the mid to low end models. What kind of reception would Handspring get if they release a high-end color handheld with low-res?

2. Would it make "good business sense" for Handspring to pour a large part of it's resources to try to create a high-res handheld, only to discontinue it next fall or whenever Palm OS 5 and the ARM processor is avaliable?

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Last edited by Fat_Man on 09-22-2001 at 05:09 AM

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jeremyf
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quote:
Originally posted by Fat_Man
Jeremy, if you really think that all I'm saying is "BS" then why respond? Yet, you took the time to break down my post piece by piece and inject your opinions to them.

Sincerely,

BS_Man



Haha, thanks for taking that with humor. I'm a real ass online sometimes (always), and I was having a bad day =(.

jeremyf is offline Old Post 09-22-2001 08:35 AM
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jeremyf
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quote:
Originally posted by Fat_Man
Anyway, let me point out...
And what "graphics software" are you talking about? What's 16-bit hardware?

First of all most of the "graphics software" in the Prism was written by Palm. Handspring modified the Palm Color OS to include 16-bit color, that's about all that they did. Except for the 16-bit color, there's not much difference software-wise between the Prism and the Palm IIIC.

Second, just because Handspring made a PDA display 16-bit color, it does not mean that they are the graphics masters. Hell, I could change the oil in my car, but I don't think that I can open my own auto-repair shop.

Third, most of the "graphics software" in the Sony Clie like gMovie and PG Pocket were by Sony.

That argument makes zero sense.



I meant that modifying the Palm OS and the hardware to allow 16-bit color (which must have taken some effort, since it took so long for others to follow suit). I don't know how much, but at least some of these Handspring software updates (as well as updates to allow for USB) were integrated into Palm 4.0, which Sony uses to run their PDAs.

The other graphics software (graphics viewing software) is insignificant to making a PDA, I think.

quote:
[/B]
Just is just speculation, but by definition of a patent, if Sony has patented on their unqiue way to create color high resolution, and if that patent is valid, then by law no one can use that method without Sony's permission. Sorry to break the real world to ya, kid.
[/B]

I realize this, but I'm saying that there isn't only ONE way to have high resolution screens. A billion (or more!) companies have patents on PC graphics cards, but they're all very similar and do the same thing. Pocket PC and HandEra have hi-res screens, using different methods than Sony.

quote:

Good business sense? kid, do you even know what that is?

1. Would it be "good business sense" to release a "nice" color Handspring that's low-res and have it bomb because everyone is expecting a color high-res unit? The Pro and Neo only got... at best... a luke-warm reception when they were announced. The Pro and Neo are just the mid to low end models. What kind of reception would Handspring get if they release a high-end color handheld with low-res?



Well, the Pro and Neo weren't breakthroughs, but they are the #2 and #3 sellers on Amazon.com right now, and I'm sure it was "good business sense" to increase their sales like that without too much risky investment.

You're right in that I'm just assuming that it's "good business sense" since I'm not Handspring's CFO, but there definitely seems to be a market for new color Palms. Which scenario sounds better:

#1-
Nov. '01 - Release "Prism II"
Nov. '02 - Release "Prism III" with better processor and PalmOS 5.0

#2-
Nov. '02 - Release "Prism III" with better processor and PalmOS 5.0

If I were Handspring's CFO, I'd definitely make sure option #1 was completely infeasible before I went to option #2

quote:

2. Would it make "good business sense" for Handspring to pour a large part of it's resources to try to create a high-res handheld, only to discontinue it next fall or whenever Palm OS 5 and the ARM processor is avaliable?



Prolly! Sony will probably release a new handheld in around a year to replace the N610 -- it won't last forever. Palm seems to think it's "good business sense" to make updates to and discontinue old products every 6 months or so.

Also, the "Prism II" probably wouldn't be discontinued when the "Prism III" came out -- you'll get a mid-range and a high-end color handheld. The Prism I will probably not be discontinued when the next one comes out (at least right away). It'll probably just be a hundred or two dollars less.

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