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K. Cannon
Member

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speaking of some people...

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
If you've just met them, it may still be an assumption. I think you've gotten my point on the whole, though, or maybe you haven't. ;�~~~

You had a point?

10-15-2002 03:23 PM

K. Cannon
Member

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speaking of some people...

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

actually The Sound of Music was located in Austria...
This would be you are american because you like maple leafs....

Um, I said the following in my post: "...nationalistic pride when "Eidelweiss" is played (such that you begin making emotional faces as portrayed by Christopher Plummer , although I think the Von Trapps were technically Austrian)..."

Gee, TookiT, are Germany and Austria different? Stupid Americans like me probably don't know any better.

Of course, I believe Germany and Austria have significant historical ties. Whereas Canada (if stupid me gets your maple leaf reference) and the USA don't.

quote:
fyi Edelweiss is a (white) flower that grows in the Alps...

And the name of a song. From a movie. About the Von Trapp family. From Austria.

10-15-2002 03:32 PM

DingoFish
Member

Registered: May 2001
Location: GA, USA
Posts: 76

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Speaking of some people...

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
I dont see Iran cheering for the Americans to go into Iraq..in fact they too have reservations about an invasion.

Right, why would they want a fellow, dictatorial regime in the area to be replaced with a free democracy? It's not that they don't consider Saddam a threat, it's that the fear the alternative even more.

10-15-2002 04:05 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Re: Re: *d'oh*

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
Bush was also technically democratically elected, I'm still not convinced that election was kosher...

It wasn't. There were voting irregularities all over the country. There always are. In the other parts of the country which the media mentioned perhaps once in passing, they (coincidentally?) tended to favor Gore. Florida was where the drama was, though, and that sells paper and TV advertising. When everything was said and done, though, and the media paid for their recounts, Bush was upheld as the winner in Florida by any reasonable standard. The 'popular vote' myth still holds sway in some people's 'minds', though, so there will always be people who search for a grand conspiracy.

quote:
As for the list Bush did the same things (except for burning down the Reichstag... of which the details are still not 100% clear)

Oh please. Bush has not done those things as Hitler. If you're going to criticize the man, at least do it based on reality (criticizing him based on some of the actions of Ashcroft, for example). It cheapens your position when you resort to absurd comparisons.

quote:
All politicians promise the world and blacken their opposition...

And yet some people continue to believe one side over the other.

quote:
I thought the cartoon was actually quite funny..

It would have been funnier had it been based on a more fitting analogy. Comparing Bush to Hitler in any way is weaker than comparing Saddam to Hitler.

10-15-2002 04:44 PM

jhappel
Member

Registered: May 2001
Location: NY metro area
Posts: 219

yardie said:

quote:
The point that I was trying to make is that I have yet to meet a meet a Jewish person who oppose war with Iraq.

Yardie meet Jonathan - Jonathan meet Yardie

Hi! How are you? I'm a Jew who opposes the war against Iraq.

__________________
Jonathan

10-15-2002 05:26 PM

K. Cannon
Member

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1062

quote:
Originally posted by jhappel

Yardie meet Jonathan - Jonathan meet Yardie

Hi! How are you? I'm a Jew who opposes the war against Iraq.

Jonathan, may I introduce you to my friend, KRamsauer?

10-15-2002 05:29 PM

KRamsauer
TreoCentral Staff

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 734

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon

Jonathan, may I introduce you to my friend, KRamsauer?

Hi Jonathan. You surely agree with me that knowing someone is Jewish tells me something about their opinions regarding the middle east, right? Of course it doesn't tell me everything, but it's a fairly strong predictor.

10-15-2002 06:09 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

In an attempt to bring this back on topic, how about something related to September 11th.
http://www.nyobserver.com/pages/frontpage3.asp

10-15-2002 07:39 PM

KRamsauer
TreoCentral Staff

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 734

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
In an attempt to bring this back on topic, how about something related to September 11th.
http://www.nyobserver.com/pages/frontpage3.asp

Oh come on! This is the off-topic forum!

10-15-2002 08:21 PM

KRamsauer
TreoCentral Staff

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 734

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
In an attempt to bring this back on topic, how about something related to September 11th.
http://www.nyobserver.com/pages/frontpage3.asp

Okay, I actually read it now.

I wish the guy could write without sounding like a left-or-right wing nut with his ramblings. He makes some good points but it seems like he wrote the words before he knew what he was writing. Oh well.

10-15-2002 08:31 PM

ToolkiT
VisorCentral Staff

Registered: Sep 1999
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 1883

Re: Re: Re: *d'oh*

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Oh please. Bush has not done those things as Hitler. If you're going to criticize the man, at least do it based on reality (criticizing him based on some of the actions of Ashcroft, for example). It cheapens your position when you resort to absurd comparisons.

ok lets break it down:
-Promised Everything to Everyone during the Depression
that's what Bush did...and Gore too for that matter, but that discussion has allready been had and we agree that all politicians work that way an we accept it

-Preached a platform that the Germans were not responsibile for their own suffering
Bush is doing the same thing about the terrorist attacks, he calls it an unprovoked attack, while the US has been messing in the middle east for decades... (I'm not saying that people in the WTC deserved what happened to them, but the US goverment certainly has some guilt over what happened... again I do NOT condone any terrorist attacks, but the I'm innocent theme that Bush keeps sending out makes me a bit sick, be a real man accept your responesibilies and admit you made mistakes in the middle east, but also say that those mistakes do not warrent any of the 9-11 or more recent Bali attacks)

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
It would have been funnier had it been based on a more fitting analogy. Comparing Bush to Hitler in any way is weaker than comparing Saddam to Hitler.

That is the funny part about it Bush and Hitler are miles appart by comparing them and not comparing them at the same time makes it more funny, the joke would not have worked at all if you would replace Bush with Sadam...

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10-16-2002 12:04 AM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
Oh come on! This is the off-topic forum!

It was irony, son. In case you didn't read it, it bundled up many of the things in this thread into one big mish-mash.

10-16-2002 02:54 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

Re: Re: Re: Re: *d'oh*

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
ok lets break it down:
-Promised Everything to Everyone during the Depression
that's what Bush did...and Gore too for that matter, but that discussion has allready been had and we agree that all politicians work that way an we accept it

No, AAMOF, neither promised everything to everyone, and we are not even close to being in a Depression.

quote:
-Preached a platform that the Germans were not responsibile for their own suffering
Bush is doing the same thing about the terrorist attacks, he calls it an unprovoked attack, while the US has been messing in the middle east for decades...

This is exactly the equivalence argument which makes your position cheapened and trite.

quote:
(I'm not saying that people in the WTC deserved what happened to them,

Yes, AAMOF, by justifying it as what the US government gets for 'messing in the middle east for decades', that's effectively what you are saying. They didn't go after the people that messed there (Jimmy Carter is the one who started things in Iraq, and he gets a Nobel Peace Prize).

quote:
but the US goverment certainly has some guilt over what happened... again I do NOT condone any terrorist attacks, but the I'm innocent theme that Bush keeps sending out makes me a bit sick, be a real man accept your responesibilies and admit you made mistakes in the middle east, but also say that those mistakes do not warrent any of the 9-11 or more recent Bali attacks)

This attitude makes me a bit sick. Bush only became President in January of 2001. To expect him to take responsibilities and be a 'real man' and joining one who _is_ measurably culpable for it in criticizing him while accepting the Nobel Prize is the height of ridiculosity.

(yes, I made up that word)

quote:
That is the funny part about it Bush and Hitler are miles appart by comparing them and not comparing them at the same time makes it more funny,

No, it makes it less funny because it seems pathetic and bitter and unrealistic. It doesn't even have a kernel of truth which often makes the best humor.

quote:
the joke would not have worked at all if you would replace Bush with Sadam...

I think you missed the point of that reference, but at least their methods of acheiving power were similar.

10-16-2002 03:04 PM

Toby
Member

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 3034

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
Okay, I actually read it now. I wish the guy could write without sounding like a left-or-right wing nut with his ramblings. He makes some good points but it seems like he wrote the words before he knew what he was writing. Oh well.

Oops...skipped this one. That rant is part of the style. If an apparent radical nut thinks one's views are radical and ridiculous (in addition to the other less radicals who already do), then maybe there's something to it.

10-16-2002 03:06 PM

John Nowak
Member

Registered: Nov 1999
Location: Redwood City CA
Posts: 472

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Oops...skipped this one. That rant is part of the style. If an apparent radical nut thinks one's views are radical and ridiculous (in addition to the other less radicals who already do), then maybe there's something to it.

I haven't been reading his column, but his book Explaining Hitler has pretty much the same style. I wouldn't so much describe it as "nutty rant" as "almost stream of consciousness." It's very informal, and I'm rather impressed by how well he pulls it off.

10-16-2002 04:16 PM

jhappel
Member

Registered: May 2001
Location: NY metro area
Posts: 219

K. Cannon asked:

quote:
Jonathan, may I introduce you to my friend, KRamsauer?

Of course you may. Hello.

And then KRamsauer said:

quote:
Hi Jonathan. You surely agree with me that knowing someone is Jewish tells me something about their opinions regarding the middle east, right? Of course it doesn't tell me everything, but it's a fairly strong predictor.

No I don't agree. What many people fail to realize is that many very devout, ultra-orthodox Jews including many if not most of the various sects of Hasidism, do not support the existence of the State of Israel. The believe that God will not allow the Jews to return to their homeland, Israel, until the coming of the messiah. In regard to mainstream Jews, I still do not agree with your premise. For example, I fully support Israel, in fact I hold dual American and Israeli citizenship, but I have argued and advocated a complete pullout from Gaza and the West Bank. I know many Jews who agree with that position. There are also a large number of Jews around the world who for whatever reason roundly condemn everything the Israeli government does.

So I don't agree that knowing a person is Jewish would tell you about their opinions regarding the Middle East any more than knowing someone is Roman Catholic would tell you what their opinions of Italy (the "home" of the modern day Catholic Church)

__________________
Jonathan

10-16-2002 05:34 PM

KRamsauer
TreoCentral Staff

Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 734

quote:
Originally posted by jhappel

So I don't agree that knowing a person is Jewish would tell you about their opinions regarding the Middle East any more than knowing someone is Roman Catholic would tell you what their opinions of Italy (the "home" of the modern day Catholic Church)

I'm not saying it tells me everything, but it does tell me something. For instance if I said I have two friends, John and Betty. Which one is taller? Of course you don't know, but knowing their names you have a clue. That is all I'm pointing out here. You are interpretting my argument as one of absolutes while I am presenting it as a probabilistic tool, just like all non-theoretical arguments.

Last edited by KRamsauer on 10-16-2002 at 07:35 PM

10-16-2002 06:36 PM