VisorCentral.com - Cost of Mac vs. PC

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-- Cost of Mac vs. PC (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=14097)

Posted by dick-richardson on 04-18-2001 08:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by homer
Beat what? You CAN'T compare them on purchase price alone. Isn't that what we've all been arguing about?

That's kinda what I thought. I thought we passed that point a while ago.

quote:
Anyways, I have NO IDEA what you and Dick are even arguing about any more. Something about South Dakota and how old you each are?

Asinine, isn't it? That's why age and location shouldn't be brought in an argument. No relevence.

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Posted by joshieca on 04-19-2001 12:25 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by timmins
Qty - Item

1 - Athlon Thunderbird 1.33GHz (266MHz) - $223
1 - Fan - $14
1 - MSI K7T Pro266 - $144
2 - PC2100 DDR - 256MB@115 - $230
1 - NVIDIA GeForce2 GTS 64MB - $228
1 - Hercules Guillemont Game Theatre - $149
1 - Klipsch 4.1 Promedia - $229
1 - Antec Case SX1030 - $93
1 - SD- 608 8X/40X IDE DVD-ROM (Samsung) - $54.00
1 - 40.0GB EIDE ULTRA-ATA/100 7200RPM - $129.00
1 - 19INDIAMOND PRO MITSUBISHI (NEC) - $407.00
1 - Keyboard - $30
1 - Intellimouse - $39
1 - a microphone - $15

Here's my price - $1984

I can't imagine one Mac that can beat that for that price.

Who makes this thing? KMART ?
Is this one of those weekend computer shopper specials? What about drivers? Hmmm lucky if Win2000 will have them.
Oh I get it, its a P.O.S. brand!

What a joke! Price out a Dell or Compaq and then we can talk!

Posted by Cerulean on 04-19-2001 01:20 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joshieca

Who makes this thing? KMART ?
Is this one of those weekend computer shopper specials? What about drivers? Hmmm lucky if Win2000 will have them.
Oh I get it, its a P.O.S. brand!
What a joke! Price out a Dell or Compaq and then we can talk!

actually that is spec'd out as a custom built shweeeet game machine (and everything else machine) --- as far as being a POS -- not in the least bit -- those components are close to the best in their respective catagories .. under $2000 for that much power is pretty impressive -- however, your right, as far as comparison goes, it does lack quite a few items (operating system, software applications, a solid 3 yr warranty, etc..) -- however, as far as custom boxes are concerned (For the most technical saavy gamer type person) this is one awesome box (though i think putting a better fan / cooling system in the unit would be a good idea..)

as far as drivers -- the majority of those items would auto-install with standard W2K drivers -- component specific drivers would ship with each item and be user installable to get the most out of the system..

Joe

Posted by lennonhead on 04-19-2001 01:22 AM:

Yay! I successfully stayed out of a Mac vs. PC argument !

"Rather like the pot calling the kettle black"

That is the second time today I've heard that used. When it rains it pours.

BTW: I am God and I use a Mac.

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Posted by joshieca on 04-19-2001 02:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cerulean

actually that is spec'd out as a custom built shweeeet game machine...

Oh I see, so that $2000 computer is only good for games. Ok...well I will take my Mac for work and buy a PS2 for the games.

Oppps I did that already.

PS...Don't forget the extra chiller unit so that chip won't go nuclear right through the motherboard!

Posted by CrayDrygu on 04-19-2001 04:05 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joshieca

Oh I see, so that $2000 computer is only good for games. Ok...well I will take my Mac for work and buy a PS2 for the games.

I usually make it a point not to flame, but you deserve this: You're an idiot, and you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. ("Bring out a Dell or Compaq, not a POS!" he says, in response to near-best-quality hardware...)

Now having gotten that out of the way, I'll explain why, not that I expect you to listen.

You have a system with more processing power, video performance, RAM, and hard drive space than most people will need in the forseeable future, and think think this is "only good for games"? Good God, I hope you're kidding.

You can use that computer for Anything You Want To, and it will work just fine -- exceptionally, in fact. It's called a gaming system because it's optimized for games, and all that means in the PC world is giving it hardware that's far far better than the specs of any software you'd need at work. AutoCAD would fly on that machine.

Oh, and I didn't quote this part, but that "extra chiller unit" you mentioned was included. It's that $14 fan. Yes, it will work just fine.

I'm convinced you're just Flaming For Fun, though. I mean, your post at the top of this page...yeah, you'll be lucky if Win2K has drivers for common, high-quality, name-brand hardware.

If you're not Flaming For Fun, then please go buy a clue, because you desperately need one. Heck, go buy one even if you are, because as it is now, you're only embarassing yourself.

Posted by joshieca on 04-19-2001 04:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by CrayDrygu

I usually make it a point not to flame, but you deserve this: You're an idiot, and you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

If you're not Flaming For Fun, then please go buy a clue, because you desperately need one. Heck, go buy one even if you are, because as it is now, you're only embarassing yourself.

Jealously shall get you nowhere!

Mr. 19 posts in 6 months!

Posted by JHromadka on 04-19-2001 05:02 AM:

Sigh. I wish I would have read this thread earlier today. Dick R. and timmons, both of you need to take a long, deep breath, say "it's ok to disagree", and move on. Someone once said something along the lines of "if you stoop to using insults in a debate, you've already lost." Judging by your postings, both of you lose.

Age/location/etc of a poster has nothing to do with whether their opinion is more or less valid. My father owns a farm. Does that make me a hick and my opinion not count? Of course not.

As homer & I tried to indicate earlier, you should buy what you need. I understand that some people buy computers like they would buy gas -- looking all over town for the place that sells it for $.01 cheaper than the others. Go ahead if that's your thing.

And in the spirit of staying on-topic in the off-topic forum , I don't see a power supply, ports (USB, firewire, etc) or operating system listed in your spec sheet timmons.

Not that it matters. Final price != best value. I could have bought a Dell laptop for much cheaper than my PowerBook G4, but it wouldn't have been a better value in the end for me. TCO, uptime, and other things factor into the cost of the machine.

Don't be insulting to other forum members. Keep it civil.

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Posted by Cerulean on 04-19-2001 05:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JHromadka
And in the spirit of staying on-topic in the off-topic forum , I don't see a power supply, ports (USB, firewire, etc) or operating system listed in your spec sheet timmons.

just an fyi ..

the ports (usb, serial, parallel, etc..etc..etc..) come with the motherboard (though i don't believe there were Firewire ports included on the system) and the power supply comes with the case he spec'd out .. all the cabling & hardware (screws and so forth) also come with the configuration .. So if you require firewire, I think thats another $60-$80 for two ports.. (add-in PCI card)

Joe

Posted by dick-richardson on 04-19-2001 05:40 AM:

I apologize for any and all insults. They were not intended.

__________________
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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by namja on 04-19-2001 05:56 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson

quote:
Originally posted by homer
Beat what? You CAN'T compare them on purchase price alone. Isn't that what we've all been arguing about?
That's kinda what I thought. I thought we passed that point a while ago.

You can always get a better price for the PC than the Mac. But Mac's are priceless when it comes to usability, especially in multimedia stuff.

Posted by timmins on 04-19-2001 01:57 PM:

I apologize as well. I also extended my apologies onto the other posting regarding message board behavior.

Just a quick note (NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS DEBATE, but a clarification).

The power supply that comes with the Antec case is usually rated amongst hardcore overclockers to be the best. The 303 power supply has a long life, and a quiet fan. There are also 2 other fans built in, and ports for 2 more if needed. This computer will not be melting down. In fact, I usually get about 123 degrees with a couple Cyclones and good ventiliation on this computer.

USB is almost always included on ATX motherboards. It's built into the motherboard, although the MSI board that I spec'd comes with an extension piece that take up one slot space and adds two more USB ports.

As for operating systems, I agree... I left it out simple because I didn't include any software, just hardware. This is where I am left in the dark, but Apple probably includes that into the price, unless you wanted to upgrade to X right? No biggie... we will just X this off from both columns.

So, only the software is the missing part. This computer is actually really nice and for the most part would benchmark past most Dell's unless you were to pay WAAAYY too much for a computer, that was made by them.

I remember I priced out a Dell for a client's home use who wanted all the doo-dads and even 1G of Rambus. Came to 9,000... I then built him a machine for 4,500. I guess maybe my example is only a smart shopper doing his research and is in no way the end-all-be-all.

Let's calm this board down, I agree. Comments of the recent have been getting way out of hand.

Sorry Dick.

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Posted by timmins on 04-19-2001 02:03 PM:

Namja:

Maybe this is where I have been frustrated with the Mac defense. And please, I only mean to continue this conversation in a pleasant manner.

I run Photoshop 6, Flash 5, and many others that I think naming just makes this post longer. Of my past experience, the Mac has a much lighter color paletter where PC's tend to be much darker. If you could just defend on what tasks or functionality I am incapable of doing on a PC vs. a Mac... I would be able to see your point.

I have worked on both platforms, and I only see that many a couple seconds in rendering time, color palettes being the only difference now days. I mean, I have dual monitor support in all environments (suburb office, downtown office, home), I have a drawing tablet at home, and so on....

See I have usually thought the Mac's claim of "doing Multimedia better" has recently fizzled out with the latest onslaught of better processor, more ram, and new OS's.

I am just looking for a Mac point of view for evidence that this comment isn't just a cliche. No flames, please.

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Posted by homer on 04-19-2001 02:46 PM:

quote:

This is where I am left in the dark, but Apple probably includes that into the price, unless you wanted to upgrade to X right?

Actually, they include OSX and OS9 with the systems. Not that really changes the price comparisons, though.

quote:
the Mac has a much lighter color paletter where PC's tend to be much darker.

Mac's use corrected gamma settings. These are actually proper. PCs do not use any corrected gamma settings, so you get a pretty whacked spectrum of color values.

quote:
If you could just defend on what tasks or functionality I am incapable of doing on a PC vs. a Mac... I would be able to see your point

You can do pretty much anything on either platform, with some minor exceptions here and there for both systems.

For a long time Mac's WERE better in the multimedia world, but, as you have stated, that gap has closed significantly. Most quality software developers know enough to develop software for both platforms.

So, as a Mac user, I would agree that the 'better for multimedia' comment IS a cliche.

A lot of mac loyalists are not technically profecient when it comes to computers (note that I am not directing that commend at anyone in here). They tend to use over-used arguments that have less and less relevancy today, ie 'better for multimedia', 'dual monitor capabilities', etc...

There ARE still studies that do still favor the mac, though. Mainely TCO and Productivity. Typically the total cost of ownership of a Mac is much lower than that of a PC...of course, that depends on the person. That study, I'm sure, refers to the average user. (Though I CAN say that it takes a HELL of a lot longer to reinstall Windows that MacOS or even Linux

)

It has also been shown that people who use macs tend to be more productive than their windows co-workers. Again, this probably is focused on the average user.

What I do notice is that a computer novice will tend to learn more about their computer when using a Mac than when they use a PC. I've been on training seminars in companies using Windows and I have to cover basic concepts such as Control-C = copy and how to bookmark a web page. And these are people that have been using their machine for years.

But, the 'power user' which, I think, is probably all of us in here, will make their decision as to which platform is a better deal by comparing VERY SPECIFIC items. This is why an argument such as this can rarely be simply a 'this machine is cheaper because of X'. If one focuses on very specific aspects of the systems, then, yes, one could say the other is a better deal...but ONLY in terms of that one particular aspect.

Timmins, you like the flexibility of building your own system. Because of that, you will ALWAYS find PCs a better deal for you. Dick, you tend to like the ease-of-use and lower TCO in your computer. More often than not, a Mac is always going to be your better deal.

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Posted by namja on 04-19-2001 03:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by timmins
I run Photoshop 6, Flash 5, and many others that I think naming just makes this post longer. Of my past experience, the Mac has a much lighter color paletter where PC's tend to be much darker. If you could just defend on what tasks or functionality I am incapable of doing on a PC vs. a Mac... I would be able to see your point.

You're absolutely right. In most graphic intensive things (like Photoshop and Flash), there's not much difference. PC has really caught up with Mac in that. It's just that Mac's always seem to be pushing the envelope and PC's are always catching up to Mac's.

Plus, PC is still behind when you're working with video. I know many PC people that bought Macs just for video editing.

For most people, that's not reason enough to buy a Mac. I haven't owned a Mac since 1993 and will probably never buy one. But there are some to whom Mac's are priceless.

Posted by timmins on 04-19-2001 03:17 PM:

Thanks for the replies.

Although... I would like to use an AAVID system for film. Thanks for your guys' clarification.

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Posted by sowens on 04-19-2001 03:19 PM:

Hmmm, guess I need to read these threads more than once a day!

quote:

Originally posted by timmins
Qty - Item

1 - Athlon Thunderbird 1.33GHz (266MHz) - $223
1 - Fan - $14
1 - MSI K7T Pro266 - $144
2 - PC2100 DDR - 256MB@115 - $230
1 - NVIDIA GeForce2 GTS 64MB - $228
1 - Hercules Guillemont Game Theatre - $149
1 - Klipsch 4.1 Promedia - $229
1 - Antec Case SX1030 - $93
1 - SD- 608 8X/40X IDE DVD-ROM (Samsung) - $54.00
1 - 40.0GB EIDE ULTRA-ATA/100 7200RPM - $129.00
1 - 19INDIAMOND PRO MITSUBISHI (NEC) - $407.00
1 - Keyboard - $30
1 - Intellimouse - $39
1 - a microphone - $15

Here's my price - $1984

I can't imagine one Mac that can beat that for that price.

You need to add a 10/100 network card, a 56k modem, and, as already mentioned, a Firewire card to completely match a Macs hardware features. That'll add about $110 to the cost. Also as mentioned, an equivalent set of software packages will probably run another $150 to $200 over that. I don't believe Macs supply a microphone anymore, so that can be deleted.

So adding $250 (approximately) to the price to cover these things brings the price to $2234.

Just trying to make an orange look as much like an Apple as possible.

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Posted by dalamar70 on 04-19-2001 03:41 PM:

If you look just at numbers on paper, I think a Windows machine will always "win" over a comparably priced Mac. That's mostly a function of competition in Windows-land, where component prices drop every couple of days (anandtech.com and others have biweekly CPU and motherboard price watches). But Macs are made just by Apple, and prices only drop maybe a few times a year.

Timmins did choose nice stuff, but if those are mail-order prices, then you need to add in mail-order shipping costs too. If you're not careful it could add a couple hundred more smackers. To match the Mac's "open the box and go" setup, it might be more fair to compare Mac prices with a prebuilt PC like from Alienware or Falcon.

For home computer users, games really are the most demanding applications you can buy these days. Most home users probably don't have a couple hundred megs of database or spreadsheet files, and don't need to be crunching 50+ frames of 3D images per second otherwise.

I haven't done any video editing or such. When people claim either the Mac or PC to be better, is that due to the available hardware (it seems that this should be pretty even), operating system or application software (e.g., Macs come with iMovie)?

As everybody has pointed out, buy whatever the heck you like and stop apologizing for it!

Posted by joshieca on 04-19-2001 04:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by timmins
Thanks for the replies.

Although... I would like to use an AAVID system for film. Thanks for your guys' clarification.

Yeah I am sure that you have used a $18,000+ Avid non-linear video editing system.

Why on earth would spend that much money on system when you can do it on a Mac for about the third of the price.

Oh yeah and its Avid with one "A", if you have used an "AAVID" system then you should have known that!

Posted by timmins on 04-19-2001 04:35 PM:

it was a mistype... I will accept your ignorance of such mistakes since you are so new to the board. I know quite well how to spell AVID, and the other resources at my alma mater, in which I studied film and audio until I changed to Interactive Multimedia with a Digital Film concentration.

Arriflex SRII
Arriflex SRI
Arri M, S, and BL
Aaton
Eclair NPR
CP 16
Sony PD150
Sony DSR300
Bolex EBM
Sony DCR VX1000
Sony DSR 200

My personal needs are satisfied with this list, joshie. Also, we are in the beginning of a civil conversation... I hope you will follow us.

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