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Originally posted by JHromadka
Actually, from what I understand, shepherds don't tend to sheep in the winter like that. They do that more often when the lambs are first born, usually around Feb.

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Originally posted by dietrichbohn


Come now, I don't dispute that Jesus existed. I don't even dispute that Jesus was the son of/identical to god. Just that I don't need saving. But Brian, he's another story, he's logically necessary for our salvation as he remind us to look on the bright side of life!

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Originally posted by dick-richardson
Toby, your assertion is a blatant fabrication.

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Everyone knows that Aries embodies the quintessential messianic temperament.

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Originally posted by ToolkiT
I think jesus is more likely to be real then god.

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IMHO Jesus was a smart man and leader of a big group of jews and probably a very wise/smart and good man. But that's it, no more no less...

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And I loved the Dogma movie, but if you are a (strict) roman catholic you might think again before watching it...

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Wow... had to take a couple of days off. Where to start? How about here.

"That's my point, I dislike Xty because it does not allow for ultimately bad things, like that prehistoric baby doe wandering into lava. That's a tragedy."

I'm surprised that no-one else caught this one. I can't see a "tragedy/ultimately bad thing" in that. What's the difference in that and a p.b.d. being eaten by a saber toothed tiger? That's life. I'm not trying to sound hard hearted, I like cute creatures too. I think a tragedy is a preventable thing, like an oil spill that ravages the ecosystem of a shoreline.

The idea that life could be worth living without having the possibility of loss is foreign to me.

I am enjoying finding out where we all are coming from. I just want to point out that we are living in faith based belief systems. Some of us put more faith in philosphy, science, or in religious traditions than others. It all comes down to where you think we're heading for after we depart this mortal plane. I can't personally believe the huge number of rational, scientific people who believe in reincarnation (Just as I'm sure they can't believe that I could actually believe that Jesus is the Son of God).

Gotta go, more later.

Michael

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

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Originally posted by Rob


I like this quote, too, although I have to admit that T.J.'s assertion about God approving of reason is just as much wishful thinking as the claim that God prefers 'blindfolded fear' (in fact, for those who heed the bible, there are many more examples of the latter than the former). I happen to subscribe to the same sort of wishful thinking, but am mindful of the fact that it's based on believing in some transcendant notion of fairness or elegance in design that even God is constrained or at least influenced by. Most religious people probably think that this idea that God has to play by certain rules (in particular, rules that seem reasonable or just to us puny humans) is either laughable, pitiable, or sufficient grounds for beating you into a bloody pulp.

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In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. JOHN 14:2

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Originally posted by Toby
See? Yet another reason my religion is destined for greatness.

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Nah... a ram is still just another sheep.

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-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

hmmm.. I start confirmation in 2 months - who thinks this stuff is good study material?

no, seriously.. Almsot all of this stuff we talked about in excellent discussions during philosphy (one of the best classes of Jr. High I think that I ever took)

Becasue, I've come in so late - I'm not too sure I'll get too involved in this, BUT..

IMHO, we all have free will. Wheathor not god exists and all (I guess I'm goign to haveto decide that this year), doesn't totally matter with the free will issue. I'm making stuff up now ain't i.. it's hard to think at 12 am!

I guess I can't remember much else about this thread right now.. sorry for watsintg 30 secodns of your life

btw.. I'm scorpio

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-miradu

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Originally posted by miradu2000
...btw.. I'm scorpio

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-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

[causing trouble]
free will:
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

-Webster's
http://www.m-w.com/
[/causing trouble]

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
The idea that life could be worth living without having the possibility of loss is foreign to me.
"You wanna live forever?"
"or die trying!"
(MacGyver)

I can't personally believe the huge number of rational, scientific people who believe in reincarnation (Just as I'm sure they can't believe that I could actually believe that Jesus is the Son of God).
I'm of the opinion that it comes down to how you "feel."
I believe in reincarnation because I believe in souls (interchangeable with spirit). I don't think the soul stays in the Afterworld forever, and some souls get trapped on this side with unfinished business.

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
[...] I just want to point out that we are living in faith based belief systems.

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Some of us put more faith in philosphy, science, or in religious traditions than others.

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It all comes down to where you think we're heading for after we depart this mortal plane.

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I can't personally believe the huge number of rational, scientific people who believe in reincarnation (Just as I'm sure they can't believe that I could actually believe that Jesus is the Son of God).

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"I'm of the opinion that it comes down to how you "feel."
I believe in reincarnation because I believe in souls (interchangeable with spirit). I don't think the soul stays in the Afterworld forever, and some souls get trapped on this side with unfinished business."

Exactly. Regardless of what someone might declare, we are emotional creatures and we make major decisions based on 'feelings', not logic. Belief systems are hard to justify. You either are in a position where you would like to believe, or you are not. Too many people on all sides believe that evangelizing means browbeating others into submission. On the other hand calm, rational discussion is beyond the scope of most people, because the other party is basically saying you're wrong! (a lot of times that's what the entire 'discussion' consists of)

Can you imagine just ceasing to be? I know I can't! I think it's hard for anyone to believe that it's 'all over' when we die. BTW, I wasn't trying to denigrate your belief in reincarnation, even though I don't personally believe in it, I was just commenting on what I perceived as interesting behavior on the part of people who had ridiculed a belief in God as illogical and scientifically insupportable (yet they had strong 'feelings' about reincarnation).

BTW, the whole Christmas thing. That holiday was pulled from the ashes of Yule. By attaching Christ to that time it allowed the Church at that time to be celebrated by the newly minted ex-pagan who was used to having a celebration at that time of the year. No biblical authority that I know of claims Jesus was born on Dec. 25th. (and anyway, since belief in astrology goes counter to Christian belief, even if he was born in March he can't be an Aries/Taurus, 'cause he didn't believe in that stuff! So there! Don't try convincing me you're right either, if you disagree, because I'm a Taurus (cusp of Aries). Don't think that I hate you though, it's not you're fault you were born on the wrong date.

" [causing trouble]
free will:
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

-Webster's
http://www.m-w.com/
[/causing trouble]"

That's what I was thinking of when I said 'free will'.

Michael

__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

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Originally posted by dick-richardson
Where do I sign up?

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We won't get into Capricorn, then.

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
Exactly. Regardless of what someone might declare, we are emotional creatures and we make major decisions based on 'feelings', not logic.

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Can you imagine just ceasing to be?

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[...] BTW, the whole Christmas thing. That holiday was pulled from the ashes of Yule.

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By attaching Christ to that time it allowed the Church at that time to be celebrated by the newly minted ex-pagan who was used to having a celebration at that time of the year.

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I stand by what I said Toby. I'm not talking about 'Voodoo science'. I'm talking about people who choose to put their faith in science as opposed to religion, or philosophy. How many scientific theories have been fervently preached, until they were later disproven? People flocked to the idea, not the science.There are millions of people who believe in evolution as truth, although it remains a theory, because they feel it makes more sense. How many 'average joes' run around spouting scientific theories (Einsteins's theory of relativity!) without understanding the science, taking it on faith because they heard/read an 'expert' proclaim it. Very few people question deeply into the meaning of their existence. Quite a few leave it to the "experts", be that religious, philosophical, or scientific. They haven't 'reproduced' anything. Don't try and tell me that for most people science is not faith based, that's disingenuous.To a lot of people scientists are akin to high priests, that's why so many Sci-Fi movies are crap. They're just fantasy dressed up in shiny mylar.

Religious tenets have endured many centuries of rigorous debate. You can't 'prove' religion with scientific methods (ie, in a lab), but you can prove it by living/ not living by it's code and seeing where you end up.

"quote:
It all comes down to where you think we're heading for after we depart this mortal plane."

"Huh? Science really has no necessary relation to this. AAMOF, it's irrelevant to science."

I don't know what the acronym AAOMF stands for, but once again I stand by what I said. A 'pure' scientist, one who is swayed by neither religion or philosophy, just science, couldn't believe in life after death (or souls, etc.) without some proof. If he had a feeling that something more lay after death, he would attempt to find out what that was, scientifically.

Nobody does anything without first having an idea of where they're going. They may end up in another place it's true, but they were heading somewhere.

That all being said, I don't think there is anyone completely over into one camp. We all have a mix.

"Regardless of what someone might declare, this is not universally true."

Ok, what ever you say. Science has proven it, but if you believe other wise....

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Don't you people sleep? I thought I was usually the first one to check in in the morning, but noooo, y'all have to go posting when I'm asleep.

Ok..

Re: Philosophy & Science as faith-based systems
While (hopefully) avoiding more sematic sparring with D-R on the definition of "Faith" , I'll have to agree that there's a certain abritrariness to our most "rational" systems. We take for granted that we can trust repeatable, commonly observes events, but it's just as possible that "there is no spoon." However, our common acceptance of certain axioms is, I think, pretty much hard-wired into our brains, which doesn't make it any truer, but does make it much harder to disprove... I'm losing my train of thought here...

I once had a debate with my legal philosophy prof, who was simply flabbergasted that I believed that utilitarianism had the same moral authority as natural law. He often said things like: "But Natural Law is grounded in the will of the omnipotent creator! Utilitarianism is grounded in man. How can the will of man have ultimate jurisidiction over other men?" Gender aside, it does raise a point: Some people prefer to place their faith in god, and having done so, justifiably (and sadly) believe all else is either arbitrary or foolish. I disagree, everything we decide upon is arbitrary (read: faith-based), but there are some things that are more beneficial & effective for the betterment of humanity than others. I hold that Xty isn't one of them.

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Originally posted by Bobbymike
I'm surprised that no-one else caught this one. I can't see a "tragedy/ultimately bad thing" in that. What's the difference in that and a p.b.d. being eaten by a saber toothed tiger? That's life. I'm not trying to sound hard hearted, I like cute creatures too. I think a tragedy is a preventable thing, like an oil spill that ravages the ecosystem of a shoreline.

So you're saying that Every single instance of tragedy (putting aside my belief that, as a Xn, you don't really believe in tragedy) is caused by human sin. Really? Every instance? With the tiger, at least the doe is taking part in the chain of life, with the lava, it's just needlessly dying, and suffering while it does. That's not an instance of tragedy? Do you think that animals are beings with moral worth? You say "tragedy is a preventable thing," but if you believe in god, then all non-human caused tragedy is preventable.

The idea that life could be worth living without having the possibility of loss is foreign to me.

That's a pity. Perhaps it's foreign to me too, could be, probably is. But the point is that it's logically possible (unless you define "free will" as necessarily tied to evil, but let's not return there). Either it was an option for creation that was purposefully avoided, or there was no purpose in creation.

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
I stand by what I said Toby. I'm not talking about 'Voodoo science'. I'm talking about people who choose to put their faith in science as opposed to religion, or philosophy. How many scientific theories have been fervently preached, until they were later disproven?

Science doesn't claim to be true for all time (unlike some things...), but admits it's wrong when the evidence shows otherwise (unless some institution <cough>Gallelio<cough> prevents it).

There are millions of people who believe in evolution as truth, although it remains a theory, because they feel it makes more sense. How many 'average joes' run around spouting scientific theories (Einsteins's theory of relativity!) without understanding the science, taking it on faith because they heard/read an 'expert' proclaim it.

Come now, don't go down "the majority thinks so" track, you'll get flayed...

Nobody does anything without first having an idea of where they're going. They may end up in another place it's true, but they were heading somewhere.

Ah, now this is difficult. You're right, we do somehow filter information and decide what is valuable evidence and what is not. But that does not make the end result of science "faith-based." The whole point of science is to counteract the impulse to believe our first impulses, but rather to only trust what we can experimentally prove. What about that idea, then? Call it "god," if you like, but I think our brains are set up (by evolution, or whatever) to recognize the wheat and the chaff.

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
I don't know what the acronym AAOMF stands for

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__________________
Soul Raven - "Sm� hjerne, stor gl�de"
Wherever you go, there you are.

"Science doesn't claim to be true for all time (unlike some things...), but admits it's wrong when the evidence shows otherwise (unless some institution <cough>Gallelio<cough> prevents it)."

Science as what kind of entity? You can certainly use Gallelio (a committed Christian) as a person persecuted by an institution (the Catholic Church) in the name of 'faith', but there are as many instances of scientific institutions doing the same. Not all scientists believe contradicting evidence, just as not all religious people believe evidence that contradicts their beliefs. People have been debating Christianity since Jesus' time. They will continue to do so forever.

"Come now, don't go down "the majority thinks so" track, you'll get flayed..."

I wasn't. Merely pointing out that millions of people believe in scientific theories simply because someone they hold in authority told them it was true. They have faith in things that they don't actually comprehend, and couldn't explain if you held a gun to their heads.

"So you're saying that Every single instance of tragedy (putting aside my belief that, as a Xn, you don't really believe in tragedy) is caused by human sin.

No, merely that tragedy is a preventable happening.

Really? Every instance? With the tiger, at least the doe is taking part in the chain of life, with the lava, it's just needlessly dying, and suffering while it does.

Just because the doe doesn't end up directly in another beings stomach doesn't mean it's not part of the chain. In that instance it gets burnt and hydrocarbons get released into the atmosphere.

That's not an instance of tragedy? Do you think that animals are beings with moral worth? You say "tragedy is a preventable thing," but if you believe in god, then all non-human caused tragedy is preventable.

'Beings with moral worth'? Do you mean beings worth something morally, or beings that can make moral choices?

I believe that hunting for sport is a waste, but that hunting for food is not. I believe that dogs and other creatures can display loyalty. I don't believe in masking animals with human morality / personalities though. That leads to trying pigs for murder (has happened). As a Christian I believe that we have a charge to care for the creatures we share this planet with. The 'dominion over' quote we are familiar in the Bible was actually about having a responsibility over other creatures, not about being able to do whatever we want to do to them. The loss of the does life was a waste, but not a tragedy- semantics?

Main Entry: trag�e�dy
Pronunciation: 'tra-j&-dE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -dies
Etymology: Middle English tragedie, from Middle French, from Latin tragoedia, from Greek tragOidia, from tragos goat (akin to Greek trOgein to gnaw) + aeidein to sing -- more at TROGLODYTE, ODE
Date: 14th century
1 a : a medieval narrative poem or tale typically describing the downfall of a great man b : a serious drama typically describing a conflict between the protagonist and a superior force (as destiny) and having a sorrowful or disastrous conclusion that excites pity or terror c : the literary genre of tragic dramas
2 a : a disastrous event : CALAMITY b : MISFORTUNE
3 : tragic quality or element

"The idea that life could be worth living without having the possibility of loss is foreign to me."


"That's a pity. Perhaps it's foreign to me too, could be, probably is."

Why a pity? I simply believe you/me/anybody treasures things more when there is the possibility of loss. Taking things for granted dulls appreciation. It's a perception thing, a comment about our present situation, not a comment on 'all possible worlds".

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."