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Posted by jazzlover on 12-11-2002 01:08 AM:

No Room For Dissent On Iraq, I Guess?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/yo...umanshield.html

Looking forward to lively discussion ... .

Posted by Yorick on 12-11-2002 02:40 AM:

"Lively discussion"? sounds like my cue ...

Seriously tho, I am both surprised and not surprised at the American letters shown. The reaction of most is, of course, that the Canadians who wish to protest war -- a vicious activity almost unheard of in species other than humans -- must be complete idiots and should be the first against the wall when war does ultimately start.

It's making me nuts to think that Joe Q Public still believes whatever nonsense comes out of the White House, that it's because of Saddam that the WTC was destroyed, that we're not responsible for this little dictator and his "weapons of mass destruction" whose capability was provided by a past American administration.

I don't feel Hussein should be allowed to have the power he does. I also don't feel that destroying yet another country is going to help the US position in the world.

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Posted by ToolkiT on 12-11-2002 05:26 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
"Lively discussion"? sounds like my cue ...

And mine...
BTW I totally agree with Yorick...

But I have to say some of the reactions of the amercan writers are scary and just as silly as the plan of the canadians...

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Posted by KRamsauer on 12-11-2002 02:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

But I have to say some of the reactions of the amercan writers are scary and just as silly as the plan of the canadians...

The comment about radical Islam being "infinitely worse than Nazi Germany" strikes me as more than slightly wrong. Anyway, I'm not an anti-war person, not by any stretch of the imagination. But it even gets to me when things become trivialized and black-and-white. The monologue on the Tonight Show, if representative of mainstream America doesn't sit well with me. Some paraphrasing:
"One way United Airlines can save themselves is by calling themselves a terrorist organization and then just wait for the money from Saudi Arabia."
"The Saudis are preparing a list of all terrorists in their country--the phone book."
and some other chest-thumping warspeak too.
I guess what it comes down to for me is we might have the authority to go in and depose the Iraqi leader, but to think we will enjoy it makes me wonder.

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Posted by Toby on 12-11-2002 04:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
[...] war -- a vicious activity almost unheard of in species other than humans [...]

No, the only thing unique to humans is that we can create/use weapons which are more destructive than our bare hands.

quote:

It's making me nuts to think that Joe Q Public still believes whatever nonsense comes out of the White House,

Yeah, like to think that all those fools fell for the line that it was OK for the President to get serviced by a college intern while conducting government business, and it was private as long as his wife didn't care.

Personally it makes me more nuts when people don't care about it until it pushes one of their personal buttons.

quote:
that it's because of Saddam that the WTC was destroyed,

Well, I think direct involvement in that was a stretch, but there's no denying that he _is_ encouraging terrorism elsewhere with his stipends.

quote:
that we're not responsible for this little dictator and his "weapons of mass destruction" whose capability was provided by a past American administration.

Actually, this criticism of all others rings the most hollow to me. That might be because I think responsibility is a double-edged sword. If we were responsible for 'creating the monster', shouldn't we be doubly responsible for destroying it? Nah, nevermind, we should just leave him alone and let him do whatever he wants.

quote:
I don't feel Hussein should be allowed to have the power he does.

How do you propose to not allow him? I'm curious as to how a pacifist thinks Saddam can be peacefully removed from power?

Posted by K. Cannon on 12-11-2002 09:12 PM:

Oh, rats!

I couldn't get anywhere with that link. Now I can't play...

Posted by jazzlover on 12-12-2002 12:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Actually, this criticism of all others rings the most hollow to me. That might be because I think responsibility is a double-edged sword. If we were responsible for 'creating the monster', shouldn't we be doubly responsible for destroying it? Nah, nevermind, we should just leave him alone and let him do whatever he wants.

This criticism of all others rings as the thorniest, to me. Perhaps it's the most difficult to deal with because it goes to deeply held American beliefs like freedom of the individual and laissez-faire economics. If one believes that, as Dubyah seems to:
1)The only solution to the problem (Saddam) is forceable removal, and
2)The decision to use that force can be made by America unilaterally and independently,
does that not lead to the polarization that creates extremist fundamentalists who want to commit terrorist acts? Hasn't the conflict in Israel taught the world that no matter how much armament you have, you can't stop every suicidal fanatic?

quote:
How do you propose to not allow him? I'm curious as to how a pacifist thinks Saddam can be peacefully removed from power?

Don't know the answer to that one. But doesn't our future demand that we evolve past armed conflict as a method of conflict resolution?
Or maybe I watched too much Star Trek last night.

Posted by Toby on 12-12-2002 02:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jazzlover
This criticism of all others rings as the thorniest, to me.

No doubt. Me too, but responsibility is seldom 'easy'.

quote:
Perhaps it's the most difficult to deal with because it goes to deeply held American beliefs like freedom of the individual and laissez-faire economics.

I'm not sure I get what you're on about here.

quote:
If one believes that, as Dubyah seems to:
1)The only solution to the problem (Saddam) is forceable removal, and
2)The decision to use that force can be made by America unilaterally and independently,
does that not lead to the polarization that creates extremist fundamentalists who want to commit terrorist acts?

There are already plenty of extremist fundamentalists who want to and do commit terrorist acts. The only thing Dubya's position does is make it easy for their apologists to justify them and say "I told ya so".

quote:
Hasn't the conflict in Israel taught the world that no matter how much armament you have, you can't stop every suicidal fanatic?

Didn't the peace process (all the way back to Carter) tell the pacifists something as well? Not everyone over there wants peace. It's quite counterintuitive, I admit, but it's reality.

quote:
Don't know the answer to that one.

If you think of one, please let us know. I can't imagine anyone here that matters being opposed to it.

quote:
But doesn't our future demand that we evolve past armed conflict as a method of conflict resolution?
Or maybe I watched too much Star Trek last night.

I think so, or maybe you didn't pay close enough attention. After all, even they had the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians to deal with.

Posted by Toby on 12-12-2002 02:41 AM:

Re: Oh, rats!

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
I couldn't get anywhere with that link. Now I can't play...

Summary: Four Canadians have been sponsored by an anti-war organization called Voices in the Wilderness to trot on over to Iraq and use themselves as 'human shields' to dissuade American-led forces from attacking Iraq. Upon hearing this, some Americans wrote in some knee-jerk commentaries. This led to knee-jerking from Canadians and Americans in response to those. I'm sure each extreme considers their points measured and well-reasoned in comparison to the other side, though, which is probably considered as purely emotional (either bleeding heart dove or foaming at the mouth hawk).

Posted by Yorick on 12-12-2002 02:54 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Actually, this criticism of all others rings the most hollow to me. That might be because I think responsibility is a double-edged sword. If we were responsible for 'creating the monster', shouldn't we be doubly responsible for destroying it? Nah, nevermind, we should just leave him alone and let him do whatever he wants.

Actually, I *do* feel we're responsible, and that yes, we should do something about it. I'd really like it if such could be done without armed conflict.
I also know there are other issues involved so it's not clear-cut.

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
How do you propose to not allow him? I'm curious as to how a pacifist thinks Saddam can be peacefully removed from power?

It worries me that there may not be a peaceful answer. If it could be proven under international law that there have been crimes against humanity for the purported "wrongs" against the Iraqis, perhaps that would be a way, but I can't see that happening. This isn't Serbia.

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Posted by EricG on 12-12-2002 07:32 AM:

Yorick,

Unfortunately, "we", the human race are collectively still a bunch of squabbling, fighting spoiled children fighting over tribal god images and natural resources.. As a race, we still collectively, have a lot of growing up to do.. so I fear that, until that day, there may be a few bloody noses here and there..

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Posted by Toby on 12-12-2002 10:40 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
Actually, I *do* feel we're responsible, and that yes, we should do something about it. I'd really like it if such could be done without armed conflict.

I'm still curious for a specific method on how it could be done without armed conflict.

quote:
I also know there are other issues involved so it's not clear-cut.

Other issues being that some people simply won't go without a fight?

quote:
It worries me that there may not be a peaceful answer. If it could be proven under international law that there have been crimes against humanity for the purported "wrongs" against the Iraqis, perhaps that would be a way, but I can't see that happening. This isn't Serbia.

Even if it were, did Milosevic just walk out of his place and surrender? Nope, he had to be extracted. I suspect Saddam is likely to be even harder to extract.

Posted by K. Cannon on 12-12-2002 02:48 PM:

Re: Re: Oh, rats!

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Summary:

Thank you.

Posted by Digisane on 12-13-2002 01:55 AM:

Re: Re: Oh, rats!

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Summary: Four Canadians have been sponsored by an anti-war organization called Voices in the Wilderness to trot on over to Iraq and use themselves as 'human shields' to dissuade American-led forces from attacking Iraq.

I don't know about some people but that seemed a pretty dumb idea. They might even be taken hostage as spies for all i can imagine and make situations worse. Well, that's kinda extreme anyway.

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Posted by Yorick on 12-13-2002 01:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
I'm still curious for a specific method on how it could be done without armed conflict.

Not being a strategist, can't answer.

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Other issues being that some people simply won't go without a fight?

The oil pipeline issue. The "revenge for mah daddy" issue. The purported human rights abuse issue. Concerns about the supposed fakeness of the current and past reports submitted by Iraq proving that Iraq does not have weapons. US sanctions against Iraq.

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Even if it were, did Milosevic just walk out of his place and surrender? Nope, he had to be extracted. I suspect Saddam is likely to be even harder to extract.

Serbia, Bosnia, and Herzogovinia were involved in a huge cultural civil war at the time Milosevic was engaged in genocide -- and, he had the support of his people. Hussein purports to have the support of his people -- check out those election results -- but being a dictator and an apparent control freak this may not be true.
Serbia is even more complicated because it's been a hotbed for a very long time.

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Posted by Toby on 12-13-2002 03:35 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
Not being a strategist, can't answer.

That's a copout.

quote:
The oil pipeline issue. The "revenge for mah daddy" issue. The purported human rights abuse issue. Concerns about the supposed fakeness of the current and past reports submitted by Iraq proving that Iraq does not have weapons. US sanctions against Iraq.

How about the recent reports of Iraq providing Al-Qaeda with VX gas?

quote:
Serbia, Bosnia, and Herzogovinia were involved in a huge cultural civil war at the time Milosevic was engaged in genocide -- and, he had the support of his people. Hussein purports to have the support of his people -- check out those election results -- but being a dictator and an apparent control freak this may not be true.

I don't see how those are supposed to be separating Iraq from Serbia.

quote:
Serbia is even more complicated because it's been a hotbed for a very long time.

Do you think Iraq is a new thing?

Posted by jazzlover on 12-13-2002 04:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
I'm not sure I get what you're on about here.

Haven't got enough time right now to clarify in an articulate way, and it probably would only lead to alot of patriotic ranting/counter-ranting anway.

quote:
There are already plenty of extremist fundamentalists who want to and do commit terrorist acts. The only thing Dubya's position does is make it easy for their apologists to justify them and say "I told ya so".

I could argue that the _other_ thing Dubya's position does is make it easier for more people on the other side of the conflict to believe that their only recourse is terrorism. If I hear the sword being rattled daily in the news, is it not more likely that I'll want to use my own?

quote:
If you think of one, please let us know. I can't imagine anyone here that matters being opposed to it.

My sense is that the non-violent strategy that could be effective has to do with finding a way to the money and shutting it off. That sounds alot like sanctions, which have been of questionable use. Maybe the answer I'm suggesting is _smarter_ sanctions.

quote:
... even they had the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians to deal with.

And even they had a Romulan who wanted to defect in an effort to preserve or find a way toward peace... .

Posted by jazzlover on 12-13-2002 04:51 PM:

Down With Powerpoint!

BTW, looove your surrent sig.

Posted by Toby on 12-13-2002 05:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jazzlover
Haven't got enough time right now to clarify in an articulate way, and it probably would only lead to alot of patriotic ranting/counter-ranting anway.

Not necessarily. I don't deny that those beliefs are deeply held by many Americans (although nowhere nearly as deeply as they once were, i.e. they may cursorily and vehemently dispute 'socialism' while vigorously defending Social(ist) Security

). I'm just not quite getting their tie in to responsiblity vis-a-vis creating/uncreating monsters.

quote:
I could argue that the _other_ thing Dubya's position does is make it easier for more people on the other side of the conflict to believe that their only recourse is terrorism. If I hear the sword being rattled daily in the news, is it not more likely that I'll want to use my own?

I don't think you're reading the subtext in my words there. I'm saying that it will not only make it more likely that those inclined will commit such acts, but that it will make it more likely that there will be ready-made apologists there to defend them, hence increasing the feedback loop doubly.

quote:
My sense is that the non-violent strategy that could be effective has to do with finding a way to the money and shutting it off. That sounds alot like sanctions, which have been of questionable use. Maybe the answer I'm suggesting is _smarter_ sanctions.

The problem with this is that it's already been tried. There is no way to enforce a 'smarter sanction' without at least physically controlling the country _anyway_. IOW, if you tell Saddam he can only sell oil for food and medical supplies, how can you guarantee that the food and medical supplies are going where they're supposed to be going, and not just being blackmarketted to provide for a new palace?

quote:
And even they had a Romulan who wanted to defect in an effort to preserve or find a way toward peace... .

Was that the episode where the defector unwittingly lures the Enterprise into a trap where the only thing which saves them from the ambush are a few reinforcements of Klingon Birds of Prey? Strange if we're drawing a different lesson from that episode. How'd things turn out for that defector?

Posted by yardie on 12-14-2002 02:39 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Oh, rats!

I think what my fellow Canadians are doing is very honorable. A lot of people are oppose to something but do nothing about it. These guys are doing something.

quote:
Originally posted by Digisane

I don't know about some people but that seemed a pretty dumb idea. They might even be taken hostage as spies for all i can imagine and make situations worse. Well, that's kinda extreme anyway.

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