VisorCentral.com - (In)Decision 2000 Discussion

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Posted by Toby on 11-09-2000 08:00 PM:

Actually, James, we use voting machines in our state that are close to that simple.

Posted by Hoser_back_home on 11-09-2000 09:34 PM:

2 things:

the re-count was not called upon by Gore, a recount MUST occur when the difference is less than .5% of the total vote.

second...you are all amazed at how people could be confused by the ballot, yet nobody ever is amazed by the fact that your shampoo bottle has instructions!!!

(just a canadian living in the states point of view )

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Posted by Toby on 11-09-2000 09:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoser_in_USA
2 things:

the re-count was not called upon by Gore, a recount MUST occur when the difference is less than .5% of the total vote.

The initial recount was not called for by Gore. The second recount (which they're asking for before the first one is finished) is, though. I wonder how well Gore will take it if his lead is reduced/eliminated when the recounts in Wisconsin, Iowa, and New Mexico are taken. It's far from over.

quote:
second...you are all amazed at how people could be confused by the ballot, yet nobody ever is amazed by the fact that your shampoo bottle has instructions!!!

(just a canadian living in the states point of view )

Take off, eh.

Actually, I'm amazed by that as well. All sorts of product labellings like that make me laugh. Blowdryers say that you're not supposed to use them in the shower. Hair curlers say that you're not supposed to use them while sleeping. Most disturbing of all, Preparation-H has a warning not to take it orally. I'm mean you know somebody had to write them a letter.

Posted by LanMan on 11-09-2000 10:14 PM:

Your right, Hoser. Florida state law caused the �recount�. I was in a hurry earlier when I wrote that line; someone finally answered the tech support line I was on and I punched my previous message in while outlining a problem where a new software update stripped the settings for my fax card from the registry. Doh!

What I meant to reference was the plea for not only a recount, but also a revote in that county. That seems completely ridiculous to me.

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Posted by Hoser_back_home on 11-10-2000 01:18 PM:

keeping in mind that i am not allowed to vote in this country so anytime ANYTHING on TV (commercials, etc.) was related to the election, i pretty much tuned out over the last 2 YEARS!.... Yesterday, I suggested to everyone at work that perhaps we should give both candidates another year to re-group and then have an 'official' election next november with standardized ballot layout!!

(i have never ran so fast in my life!! )

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Posted by LanMan on 11-10-2000 02:40 PM:

Hoser, you need to know which way is north at all times with suggestions like! I�ve come up with a way to make everyone happy. Run both Bush and Gore through a Star Trekkish transporter and combine them into one person. I can hear it now..."I President Bore, do solemnly swear..."

James, I love the name of your poll results. Indecision 2000 is absolutely correct!

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Posted by Petro on 11-10-2000 03:06 PM:

Bore? But that's gore already!! A gigantic BORE!! :-D

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Posted by JHromadka on 11-10-2000 03:23 PM:

Congrats, this is the first VC.com forum posting I've moved to off-topic.

I just hope that people don't use lawsuits and drag this thing out. Funny enough we chastised Milosevic (sic?) when he didn't want to step down. Now we have people sueing because they misread ballots.

You can't have a revote. Everyone knows that it all comes down to FL, and a revote would change the mentality that voters went to the polls with.

The ballot form was approved by Dems and Repubs alike so no foul-play there.

I feel bad for Jeb Bush. Talk about bad luck.

I feel worse about America's reputation. Whomever DOES win, he'll take office under a cloud bigger than you can shake a cigar at.

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Posted by LanMan on 11-10-2000 04:18 PM:

It's too late, James. The suits have already been filed with more on the way. On top of that, Gore is encouraging them. Why can't he take it on the chin like Nixon did? Let the nation save face, and get on with it's business!

Sample Palm Beach ballot:

Bush
Gore

No animals have been gore'd in the creation of this ballot. Sorry, but the ballot was clear as night and day.

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Posted by reconnect on 11-10-2000 05:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by LanMan
It's too late, James. The suits have already been filed with more on the way. On top of that, Gore is encouraging them. Why can't he take it on the chin like Nixon did? Let the nation save face, and get on with it's business!

Sample Palm Beach ballot:

Bush
Gore

No animals have been gore'd in the creation of this ballot. Sorry, but the ballot was clear as night and day.

While I DON'T think there should be a re-vote since the ballot was approved beforehand, it was not "clear as night and day" for senior citizens who were trying to vote within 5 minutes and who thought, "second candidate, second punch-hole". Even Buchanan admits that many of the votes for him and the "twice-punched ballots" were actually intended for Gore.

Before flaming me, reread the first part of my first sentence!

Posted by Hoser_back_home on 11-10-2000 05:45 PM:

2 more comments from the canadian (i'll keep my mouth shut after this )

a question that was brought up at work today: "How could all those seniors not understand the ballot? They can play bingo with 12 cards and tell you EXACTLY where to 'dab' on each one within a 0.89 second timespan!"

second comment:

If Bush was 'real' presidential material wouldn't he want what's best for the people in Palm Springs county and allow a revote by ONLY those that voted the first time around?
Personally, I think that would show alot of class in admiting that there was a wrong-doing and allowing citizens of a nation that he wants to govern, the oppertunity to have their voices rightfully heard.

Geez, if he did that and I was originally voting for Gore, i'd switch my vote because i'd really respect that in a leader!

(no more comments from the Hoser...unless i think of something REALLY funny! )

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Posted by LanMan on 11-10-2000 05:59 PM:

reconnect, no flame intended here, but Buchanan was on CNN's Spin show last night. He stated, "There has been a count, and a recount. There is no confusion about who is the winner. Let's move on!" Also cited that hour was that Palm Beach had over 15,000 ballots thrown out the last presidential election for double-punches with fewer voters at the polls. Yet there was no ballyhoo about it then. I believe that should a nation-wide poll be taken it would be discovered that double-punches occur copiously throughout the country. This is just a political ploy arranged by the Democrats to stall for litigious saber rattling.

We have had that same style of ballot in my home county for many years. I always make sure of which candidate I am punching. Further, should I make a ballot error I can always take my bad ballot to the poll judges for destruction and have a new ballot reissued. That�s proper procedure, not punching up the ballot like it was a bingo card. Perhaps that�s the real problem...too much bingo playing in Florida.

Whew, I need an aspirin.

[Edited by LanMan on 11-10-2000 at 01:06 PM]

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Posted by homer on 11-10-2000 06:18 PM:

The Ballot in Florida WAS poorly designed and confusing.

Looking at a ballot to approve it and ACTUALLY USING the ballot are two entirely different scenarios.

Yes, looking at the ballot, most of us can figure out how to use it. That said, we are all looking for the mistake, so we are aware of the situation, and we are all looking at it out of context (ie, sitting in a ballot booth with a few minutes to vote).

What went wrong is that the ballots were never user tested. This is a critical part of the argument. Had they user tested them they may have easily found out that yes, the ballots are poorly designed.

To say seniors or Floridians are stupid is insulting. This is poor information and graphic design. Pure and simple.

I say all of the above not as a Democrat or a Republican, nor a lawyer, but as a graphic designer. It is careless design.

Now, on to my meaningless opinions regarding the election:

1) A race this close simply reinforces the fact that there really wasn't much to vote for. Neither candidate offered a compelling reason to swing the vote.

2) The electoral college is a joke.

3) The fact that Bush got any votes is embarassing to our country...why do we vote for illiterate DWIs that have been arrested 3 times? (I'm sure I'll be flamed for that comment )

4) Larry King is an asshole.

5) The media is a blight on our society. (with the exception of the brutally honest...and, therefore, hilarious Daily Show with Jon Stewart)

6) If bush wins, at least SNL will have some good material to work with for the next 4 years.

7) The Packers may finally have a chance at a turnaround in their season (oh wait...that's not really part of the elections...)

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Posted by homer on 11-10-2000 06:23 PM:

Hoser...could you fill us in on how the Canadian election work?

From my understanding, Canada calls for a new election every so often. They then give candidates a month to campaign and then they elect.

Is that the jist of it? It sounds like such a nice, simply system.

How do you feel the Canadian system compares to the US system?

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Posted by LanMan on 11-10-2000 06:38 PM:

Hoser, a revote is unconstitutional. We literally live and die by our constitution. There is no constitutional precedence for a revote in this circumstance. We can�t just let a small group of individuals determine the fate of the Presidency just because their candidate didn�t win. Beside, can you imagine the sheer pressure that would be brought to bear on these senior citizens prior to and after casting their revote? I wouldn�t want to be in their shoes.

Naturally, now that there is litigation the courts will have to become involved. Unfortunately, since this will be litigation within a state, the Florida courts will have to ascertain justice, not the US Supreme court.

It's not a matter of what would be the "nice" thing to do, nor perhaps what is even the "right" thing to do. We must adhere to our constitution on this matter. Later, should we decide that the constitution did not bear up to this dilemma then an amendment can be ratified.

[Edited by LanMan on 11-10-2000 at 02:49 PM]

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Posted by Hoser_back_home on 11-10-2000 07:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by homer
Hoser...could you fill us in on how the Canadian election work?

From my understanding, Canada calls for a new election every so often. They then give candidates a month to campaign and then they elect.

Is that the jist of it? It sounds like such a nice, simply system.

How do you feel the Canadian system compares to the US system?

You'll have to talk to my fiance (she's the Political Science major!) but generally, the governing party must call an election somewhere between its 3rd and 5th year. the party in power can be voted back into power as often as the country wants (no term restrictions).

Each 'party' has a leader ALL THE TIME which represents the party in the parliament. an advantage to this is that you actually get to see the leader of the party in action before you have to vote for him/her. this also eliminates the primaries that US parties go through and thus shortens the whole 'election experience'.

for more info i'll have to consult with my 'live-in expert' on the subject matter. i read a REALLY good article on the comparisons in the Toronto Star on October 24th. They interviewed a professor from Standford and UofToronto. I can't seem to find it on the Toronto Star website archives..but if i find it i'll post a link.

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Posted by Marfu on 11-10-2000 07:13 PM:

Homer I agree with you that the ballots should have been voter(idiot) tested before being used. If this had been the first year or first election this style of ballot was used I might agree that a revote might be warranted, but it isn't. This ballot style has been used in those counties for several years and for many elections. If it's truly a problem it should have been corrected. At this point and time I think it's a case of sour grapes.

Wouldn't it be funny if the judge who is hearing the case was elected by the same "confusing" ballot? If he rules against Gore do you think they'd demand a revote on whether or not the judge was truly the people's choice?

Posted by Toby on 11-10-2000 07:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoser_in_USA
2 more comments from the canadian (i'll keep my mouth shut after this )

a question that was brought up at work today: "How could all those seniors not understand the ballot? They can play bingo with 12 cards and tell you EXACTLY where to 'dab' on each one within a 0.89 second timespan!"

LMAO...actually, that's one of the best insights into this that I've heard yet.

quote:
second comment:

If Bush was 'real' presidential material wouldn't he want what's best for the people in Palm Springs county and allow a revote by ONLY those that voted the first time around?

Two things about this. Couldn't you just as easily say that if Gore were "real" presidential material, he'd not make that necessary? Second, a revote isn't allowed for by law unless they can prove fraud, nor should it be.

quote:
Personally, I think that would show alot of class in admiting that there was a wrong-doing and allowing citizens of a nation that he wants to govern, the oppertunity to have their voices rightfully heard.

Where was there a wrong-doing, though? This was not any sort of new balloting system which was just implemented. This was a legal ballot which had been in use for some time.

quote:
Geez, if he did that and I was originally voting for Gore, i'd switch my vote because i'd really respect that in a leader!

That would never happen in this case. The whole dispute is only because their candidate didn't win. Had Gore won, they could have thrown out all of Florida's votes, and you wouldn't have heard a peep.

quote:
Originally posted by homer
What went wrong is that the ballots were never user tested.

What about the prior elections in which they were used?

quote:
This is a critical part of the argument.

That doesn't make their argument any less invalid.

quote:
Had they user tested them they may have easily found out that yes, the ballots are poorly designed.

Again, what about the prior elections in which they were used?

quote:
To say seniors or Floridians are stupid is insulting.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean the insult isn't warranted.

quote:
This is poor information and graphic design. Pure and simple.

You're half right. There is loads of poor information being cast about. And I'm saying this as someone who voted for neither Gore nor Bush.

Posted by Winchell on 11-10-2000 07:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by LanMan
We can�t just let a small group of individuals determine the fate of the Presidency just because their candidate didn�t win.

I fear that you are jumping to conclusions by asserting that he did win. The vote cannot be certified until all the absentee ballots are in, especially all the ones from Floridians visiting Israel who favor Joe Lieberman.
In any event, I find it difficult to believe that folks like you would not be screaming about how unfair it all is, were the tables turned.

quote:
Beside, can you imagine the sheer pressure that would be brought to bear on these senior citizens prior to and after casting their revote? I wouldn�t want to be in their shoes.

And what exactly does this have to do with anything?

They are American Voters, just like you. They knew the job was dangerous when they took it.
As far as pressure goes, after watching those crowds of furious senior citizens yelling at the TV camera, I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of anybody who prevents them from re-voting.

quote:
We must adhere to our constitution on this matter. Later, should we decide that the constitution did not bear up to this dilemma then an amendment can be ratified.

I don't think you understand.
At my job, we have to keep in touch with universities and high schools around the country. We spoke with a lot of people in Florida around the areas of controversy.

They are talking race riots.

The local minorities are very, very angry.
And everything is just pouring more gasoline on the flames.
I don't want to even think about what the whacko Militia groups are going to do. Just don't go near any large Federal buildings with suspicious looking trucks parked outside.

In the meantime, whichever of the two candidates becomes president, they will quickly discover that Washington DC is like swimming with the sharks. Roughly half of the electorate, the house, and the senate will be screaming for blood. Everything will be gridlocked, and you can bet your bottom dollar that the new president will be investigated with a microscope by the opposing party in a effort to discover an impeachable offence.

While outside of the Beltway, the bitterness is getting to Civil War levels. Brother vs. brother, the whole nine yards.

What a mess...

[Edited by Winchell on 11-10-2000 at 02:49 PM]

Posted by Fishscaler on 11-10-2000 07:57 PM:

Had anyone noticed that both Gore and Bush would've made fine Vice Presidents?

IMHO, Cheney and Lieberman were better Presidential hopefuls, at least in regards to their oratorial skills and charisma.

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