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Posted by ToolkiT on 06-18-2002 01:52 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi

That's awfully funny you mention that, because have you looked at his approval ratings recently? They have been the highest of any president, and have not dropped below 70% in over 8 months. Not bad for a President that does not represent the people. Compare this to Clinton's hovering around 50% all the time, never getting too much higher (but a lot worse).

'War' allways boosts the popularity of a president... If Clinton was president now he probably would have been just as popular...
When in war a country naturaly unites....

quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi
Americans feel they made the right choice in November 2001. Ask almost any democrat that voted for Al Gore how the country would be if he was President during 9-11. They all say they are glad they didn't have to find out.

We'll never know, he might have handled the situation better than Bush...
I'm sure he would have done a lot of things better than bush.
Not that he per se would have been a better pres, in last election you really had no good option if you ask me...

quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi
That is what is great about the American system. We might not immediately agree with who won, but when the decision is made, we all stick to it and pledge our full support to the President. There are no riots, there are no killings. There is no burning the White House. That is because of the faith we have in our system, and that is the ultimate sign that our Democracy works.

Mmm the fact that you associate not agreeing with your pres with riots and killing scares me... I guess that mindset is what I'm talking about... how about some humanity? what's wrong with peacefull discusion? is your system so corrupt that people feel like the have to resort to riots to get their point across?

quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi
Our country has stuck to one form of Government for 213 years. There has only been one large movement of anyone that wanted to break away from our Union, and that is because Slavery is such a strong issue, it could break apart any form of Government. Compare this to Argentina, or Yugoslavia, or almost anywhere else in the world that elects a Government.

Great examples....NOT...

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Posted by ToolkiT on 06-18-2002 01:53 AM:

Anyway I'm going to leave at that... you have your opinion, I have mine lets agree to disagree...

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Posted by Yorick on 06-18-2002 03:29 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi
Compare this to Argentina, or Yugoslavia, or almost anywhere else in the world that elects a Government.

<smacks terry with a salami> Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore, and only existed because of treaties at the end of WWII.

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Posted by terrysalmi on 06-18-2002 03:54 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

'War' allways boosts the popularity of a president... If Clinton was president now he probably would have been just as popular...
When in war a country naturaly unites....

You think that Clinton didn't realize this? Why do you think he put so many troops in so many different 'peacekeeping' missions (Somalia, Kosovo, etc...)...he was trying to create a war to artificially boost his failing popularity.

quote:
We'll never know, he might have handled the situation better than Bush...
I'm sure he would have done a lot of things better than bush.
Not that he per se would have been a better pres, in last election you really had no good option if you ask me...

Well, it's a moot point now, that doesn't really matter.

quote:
Mmm the fact that you associate not agreeing with your pres with riots and killing scares me... I guess that mindset is what I'm talking about... how about some humanity? what's wrong with peacefull discusion? is your system so corrupt that people feel like the have to resort to riots to get their point across?

You took me completely out of context. I was bragging about our peaceful discussions, and how we have so much faith in our system, we DO NOT resort to riots and killings. However, the same cannot be said about many other countries.

quote:
<smacks terry with a salami> Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore, and only existed because of treaties at the end of WWII.

My bad, about Yugoslavia. However, Poland only exists because of the treaties after WWI and WWII...does this make Poland less of a nation?

quote:
Newsflash!

You are right. The Allied Forces won World War II, and it was mainly a joint effort between the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union, and the United States, along with many other nations. Each nation did their part in the War Effort, and if either of the Big Three did not take part in the war, we would be speaking German right now. America did their part with their men and industry, England did their part with their strength and stamina of holding back the German Empire, allowing England to be used as a base to attack the western front from, and the Soviet Union used their men, strength, and unnaturally cold winter to hold back and defeat the German Empire. However, America was responsible for the destruction of the Japanese Empire. England helped somewhat from Australia, and the Soviet Union only declared war on Japan two weeks before we dropped the bomb, so they could have a seat at the peace table and former Japanese land.

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Posted by tantousha on 06-18-2002 05:00 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi

You are right. The Allied Forces won World War II, and it was mainly a joint effort between the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union, and the United States, along with many other nations. [/B]

EXCUSE ME! A joint effort between the UK, the Soviets and Canada. The US didn't enter the war until they got hit in the butt by the Japanese. Canada was out there from the beginning, we went out 4 days after the UK declared war. We lost almost 10 times what you Americans lost in Europe (though we didn't go into Asia that much, but we did have quite an effort there too). Canada sent almost twice as many troops on D-Day than America did. Get your facts straight. The Allied Forces were considered to be UK, USSR and Canada up until 42 (I believe) when America decided it wanted a bit of the glory cake, though they already basically knew the Nazi's were defeated. I actually think that Australia sent more troops to Europe than America did.
Alex.

Posted by Yorick on 06-18-2002 05:44 AM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by terrysalmi
My bad, about Yugoslavia. However, Poland only exists because of the treaties after WWI and WWII...does this make Poland less of a nation?
Ah, but Poland existed long prior to WWI ... Yugoslavia did not. Yugoslavia is/was artificial.

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Posted by Toby on 06-18-2002 02:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
[...] Finally somebody picks this up... it was the achilles heel.
But, the parliament system is not designed to do that, while a 2 party system is... [...]

It should be noted that the USian system is _not_ a 2 party system by design, nor does it necessarily have to be one in fact. AAMOF, although we've historically had two dominant political parties vying for power, those parties have not always been the same two.

Posted by Toby on 06-18-2002 02:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
[...] Mmm the fact that you associate not agreeing with your pres with riots and killing scares me... I guess that mindset is what I'm talking about... how about some humanity? what's wrong with peacefull discusion? is your system so corrupt that people feel like the have to resort to riots to get their point across? [...]

Reading his statement like that says a lot about _your_ personal prejudices and mindset. He was contrasting how our system (well really the people rather than the system, if you ask me, but...) handles a really chaotic election result as compared to some other countries who might not do so well.

Posted by Toby on 06-18-2002 02:53 PM:

Oops...missed this part:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
'War' allways boosts the popularity of a president... If Clinton was president now he probably would have been just as popular...
When in war a country naturaly unites....

No, when in a (perceived) _just_ war, a country unites. Clinton was constantly participating in his own little wars with allied forces. Of course, the general population isn't going to rally behind a president who only seems to bomb people when there's a potential scandal looming large.

Posted by John Nowak on 06-18-2002 04:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

Newsflash!
US did not win WWII, the allied forces did, and mainly because of the eastern front.
If it wasn't for the rusians europe would be speaking German now, asiapacific would be speaking japanese and the US would be an island under constant attack...
Get your history right...

And all of that because the allies had our attitude.

I see you as one of those people voting against that nasty warmonger, Churchill.

Posted by John Nowak on 06-18-2002 04:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

To me it looks like the US is looking for new 'russians' now with the cold war over they have no enemy.

Why doesnt the US just try to get allong with the rest of the world?

Yeah -- it's not like three thousand of ours were murdered or anything.

Posted by John Nowak on 06-18-2002 04:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by tantousha

The US didn't enter the war until they got hit in the butt by the Japanese.

Actually, Roosevelt proposed a joint US /British embargo of Japan in the late 1930s, but Chamberlain didn't go for it because he wasn't a nasty warmonger like Churchill. Also, US naval forces in the Atlantic were hunting German submarines

quote:
Originally posted by tantousha

I actually think that Australia sent more troops to Europe than America did.
Alex.

Half of the forces during the D-Day invasion were American. The bulk of the rest were British and Canadian, with small forces of Poles and French.

Posted by Burns on 06-18-2002 06:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

Don't know the statistics on that, but there may be less succesful suicide bombers, but there definately will be more attempts....

And now you will probably say: but what does matter? attempts or succesfull ones?
The answer is both, if you take away the root of the problem you have none...

The problem with your statement is this: To the palestinians who are conducting the suicide bombings, taking away the root of the problem means wiping Israel off the face of the planet. Sorry but the Israel will not allow that to happen, and neither will the U.S.

The Israeli use of force is similar to the U.S. use of force. Their innocent citizens are being targetted and they have the right and the justification for striking back and obliterating the terrorists.

By the way, notice I didn't say "obliterating the Palestinians." I do not believe that every Palestinian thinks Israel should be wiped out.

- Burns

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Posted by terrysalmi on 06-18-2002 06:57 PM:

I'm sorry. I will consider Canada in the Big '4'...I was going off of what is commonly refered to in history books, etc. (and why wasn't Canada at Casablanca or the other meetings?).

On D-Day, we all played our part. I question the Canadians thoughts of giving each of their soldiers a Bicycle to cycle to Cains after the war, thinking the beach was going to be no problem...(the cycles were quickly abandoned)

You can argue with each of the many allied powers that each did their instrumental role in winning the war, and this is true.

However, the you must refer that the Big 3 turned out to be the U.K., the U.S.S.R., and the U.S.A. (and in Japan, China) - As these are the countries that met to strategize the demise of the German Empire, and ultimately signed the surrender documents.

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Posted by terrysalmi on 06-18-2002 07:07 PM:

quote:
Don't know the statistics on that, but there may be less
succesful suicide bombers, but there definately will be more attempts....

And now you will probably say: but what does matter? attempts or succesfull ones?
The answer is both, if you take away the root of the problem you have none...

Exactly. Why does it matter? You cannot take out the root of the problem without killing the Palestinians, unfortunately, or giving them a very different mindset about life. Every Suicide Bomber they put out - successful or not - strikes fear in the Israeli population. That is why they keep trying, and why Israel still lives in fear.

My heart goes out the 19 innocent civilians that were killed and the 40 that were wounded today in another suicide/homicide bombing. This was a bus in Jerusalem full of High School students and office workers. Seven of the dead were students.

In 21 months of fighting, Palestinian extremists have carried out 70 suicide bombings. This is 70 too much. I will quote the Prime Minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon, condeming these attacks:

quote:
"This terrible thing that we see is a continuation of Palestinian terrorism, and against that terrorism we have to fight and struggle � and that is what we will do"..."The terrible sights we have seen here are stronger than any words," Sharon said. "It is interesting to know what kind of Palestinian state they mean. What Palestinian state?"

I ask everyone tonight, whether they disagree with me on politics or not, to say a prayer for these innocent civilians deaths - whose only crime was being Jewish in the only land they can call their own.

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Posted by Yorick on 06-18-2002 09:05 PM:

Talk radio DJ this morning suggested that one way to put a stop to the suicide bombings would be to retaliate in kind. Mainly, after a successful suicide bomber has been identified, kill that person's family.

It's a very brutal solution and I don't agree with it, but he did have a valid point which I've heard before: the family usually gets some sort of payment from the Palestinian government following a suicide bombing.

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Posted by John Nowak on 06-18-2002 11:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi
I'm sorry. I will consider Canada in the Big '4'...I was going off of what is commonly refered to in history books, etc. (and why wasn't Canada at Casablanca or the other meetings?).

Canada's contribution in general was very much overlooked both during the war and afterwards. At the time it was still integrated into the British Empire, and most of its foreign policy was set by London.

Posted by terrysalmi on 06-19-2002 03:36 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
Talk radio DJ this morning suggested that one way to put a stop to the suicide bombings would be to retaliate in kind. Mainly, after a successful suicide bomber has been identified, kill that person's family.

It's a very brutal solution and I don't agree with it, but he did have a valid point which I've heard before: the family usually gets some sort of payment from the Palestinian government following a suicide bombing.

It is a very brutal punishment, and it is unfortunately necessary. The Suicide Bombers families get money from Saddam Hussein, Saudi Arabia, and the Palestinian Authority (it has been proven). The amount they get is enough to live over there on their current standards for about 10 years. That is why in today's instance, you read news reports about how the mother and father of the suicide bomber are "happy, overjoyed, and ecstatic" that their son blew himself up, taking out innocent civilians in the process.

The Arab mindset is very different from ours. They believe that if they kill a single jew while killing themselves, it is an instant ticket to the highest level of heaven. The arab people don't care about their children, either. That is why they keep sending off their children to be blown up. Notice it is never the adults, it is always someone under the age of 30, that has a trained mindset it is ok to kill yourself while killing a jew.

Take some time to read magazines like Time or Newsweek. About once a month, you see pictures they take of children 10-12 years old in the 'refugee' camps playing with fake dynamite around their wastes, pretending to blow themselves up.

The Palestinian's also realize how good a dead 'kid' from Israeli guns looks in the international media. The Palestinian Authority purposely has their children go to the 'front lines' and throw rocks and shoot guns at Israeli tanks, so when the soldiers defend themselves, you get a dead kid, and international outrage at Israel. However, the world never notices when a suicide bomber takes out Jewish High School kids on their way to school, as happened today.

Don't forget: These are the same people that paraded in the streets after the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, as shown by the world media.

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Posted by tantousha on 06-19-2002 06:36 AM:

Canada may not have had much say in the strategic meetings, but we were a major part of the cleanup crew that stayed in Europe after the war. Actually it was a Canadian company, Bombardier, that oversaw the rebuilding (and creation for that matter) of Europe's excellent rail system. They still make something like 70% of the trains in use in Europe. If I remember correctly the only reason Canada backed out (yes they were originally part of it) of the talks about Germany was because of the fighting between the US and the USSR, as it was Germany was being split in three and Canada foresaw that it was a mess they didn't really want to get into. I think it was actually that point that changed Canada's views as a country towards war, we haven't actively participated in any since. But before that, we were known as heroes in Europe, look up the battles of Ypres, Vimy Ridge, and several others. Oh and it was Canada that basically saved Holland from being taken over during WWI or WWII, I can't remember. When we want too...we can fight well..but we prefer sitting around, drinking beer (well not me, I'm still underage) and discussing world peace, and how to keep Quebec in.
Alex.

Quick Question: What's the capitol of Canada? Alberta? and B.C.? Don't look it up on the net, that's cheating, answer honestly and truthfully. (oh well you will probably look it up anyhow)

Posted by tantousha on 06-19-2002 06:41 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi

Don't forget: These are the same people that paraded in the streets after the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, as shown by the world media.

That news company later admitted that that clip was shot before Sept. 11 took place and they only played because that was what they felt the "terrorists" would be doing back east. After the one channel broadcast it, the others followed not wanting to appear "slow" in the world of news. That's all.

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