VisorCentral.com - What's better, Flash or HTML?

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Posted by miradu on 05-01-2001 01:02 AM:

Hello VC'ers.. (yet again)

I'm devleoping a new site/replacement for QDWD, and my chocies are Flash (more than the animation I have), or HTML/PHP.

I want my site to convey information, in a fun, easy to read format, that everybody can access. I'm on a dialup connection, so it needs to be fast, for people like me..

For whole websites, or major parts of websites, which formats does you people like better? A Flash site, or a pretty nicely tabled HTML site?

I'm stuck and can't decide!

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Posted by cptncelchu on 05-01-2001 01:17 AM:

Go with HTML. It's more widely supported and a lot faster to load. Old machines and Visors can't handle Flash too well (Visors can't handle it at all).

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Posted by homer on 05-01-2001 01:17 AM:

quote:
I want my site to convey information, in a fun, easy to read format, that everybody can access.

The key work is 'everybody' in the above comment. If that is the case, I'd stick with HTML.

Otherwise, we'd need more information. I don't know what QDWD is, and, therefore, it'd hard for me to know who your intended audience is.

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Posted by JHromadka on 05-01-2001 03:51 AM:

I can't stand flash for site navigation. I don't even have the plugin installed on my computer.

BTW, I fixed your "psot" typo. Tsk, tsk.

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Posted by Gameboy70 on 05-01-2001 07:30 AM:

Flash intervention

The less Flash in the world, the better. Flash is a drug, even worse than PowerPoint if that's possible. Two years ago I quit a job at a web design firm over our "architect's" addiction to Flash. The worst part was that he wasn't particularly fluent with ActionScript; he only knew how to create tell targets. So he made virtually everything tell targets, even non-interactive movie clips. Then I'd have to go back and clean up after him.

Not to say that DHTML animation on the likes of GoLive are any better. But sites like VC or Slashdot are proof that you can build a sticky site without extravagant multimedia.

Posted by homer on 05-01-2001 02:15 PM:

quote:
Flash is a drug, even worse than PowerPoint if that's possible.

I loathe powerpoint. However, I have to disagree with your comment. Flash CAN, and OFTEN IS pointless. That said, there are certainly times when Flash is actually very useful and even quite appropriate for communicating particular information.

I'm thinking along the lines of interactive presentations, complicated 'how-to' diagrams, games, etc.

Of course, Flash is usually used for 'gee-whiz' animations which more often annoy rather than enhance. Once in a while, a flash animation, used sparingly, CAN enhance the visuals of a site. I particulalry like http://www.marchfirst.com and how they used small Flash movie within a larger HTML framework.

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Posted by JHromadka on 05-01-2001 03:25 PM:

That's why I said I hate Flash for "navigation" like buttons, etc. I really liked how Handspring used flash to show off the Visor Edge when it was released (click & drag to rotate, etc). I also don't like how there's no alt-text tags on these Flash sites, forcing me to click around just to find out how to navigate the site.

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Posted by dalamar70 on 05-01-2001 03:42 PM:

Flash is good for making animations. The problem is that most web sites don't need animation--only specific stuff like the previously mentioned how-to guides, product demos, etc.

You CAN do good stuff with Powerpoint. It's just that most people fail at it, or get carried away with it. Don't blame Powerpoint itself for bad presentations (although PPT does have its own problems).

Posted by mrstream on 05-01-2001 03:57 PM:

I think that if you minimize the amout of Flash on your site it's better. Using it for some things, like navigation, I think is a good idea. As long as it is clear as to where you're going, like what James mentioned. While redesigning our site here at work, we were going to use an HTML navigation at the top of the pager, but found problmes with that solution. Flash came to the rescue. Although it is a litte tricky the first few times you use it, it does work well.

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Posted by YBYSAIAH on 05-01-2001 04:42 PM:

I don't think you can go wrong by only introducing complexity/exclusivity only when it's needed to convey a message and you warn people up front that it's coming. I do a couple of small sites for non-profits and try to only use widely-accepted HTML tags and only use multimedia to augment what's already there.

One of the best/worst examples of a Flash site I've experienced is the local Children's Museum - you can't get anything without Flash... I guess they just aren't interested in the kids who don't have access to the latest and greatest. Woo-Hoo! I figured I'd check it out prior to posting this and they've switched to HTML... maybe there's a message in there somewhere!

Posted by Gameboy70 on 05-01-2001 06:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by homer
I loathe powerpoint. However, I have to disagree with your comment. Flash CAN, and OFTEN IS pointless. That said, there are certainly times when Flash is actually very useful and even quite appropriate for communicating particular information.

I was referring to miradu's context: "For whole websites, or major parts of websites".

Make no mistake: Flash can be used effectively. But I'm with Jacob Nielsen on the opinion that 99% of Flash sites, as opposed to very local .swf files within an HTML framework, are what's technically referred to as crap. I'm not against the technology; it's the open-ended nature of it: Flash tends to stoke the imagination of web designers in a "let's see, what else can I do?" sort of way. That's why I say it's a drug. Photoshop, at least, ends with static images, where Flash tends to lure designers into conceiving web pages as time lines. It's one thing to have to wait for a page to load due to bandwidth limitations; it's another to have content unfolding over time by design. For me, it's a visceral reaction: if I don't get instant gratification, I disengage and go elsewhere on the web. With Flash, most of the time, designers overemphasize the temporal dimension simply because they can. That's why I like GoLive: it has a DHTML timeline for animated content, but it sucks, so you tend to stick to HTML and only use animation when you really need it.

I feel passionately about this, mainly because I've had too many conflicts with designers from the "if the only tool you have is a hammer" school of Flash. I'd go so far as to say I left the field of web design over it.

Posted by miradu on 05-02-2001 12:18 AM:

and html is way cheaper

Wow. I'm surprised at how much negative flash feedback there is. I guess you guys don't like the ads on zdnet, either

It looks like I'll do everything in HTML, and than make a couple o flash animations.. Using the demo of flash of course

That's great.. look for the site in October !

Thank You

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-miradu

Posted by homer on 05-02-2001 02:14 AM:

quote:
I guess you guys don't like the ads on zdnet, either

I actually find those ads a good use of Flash. Yea, they are a bit obtrusive, but if it pays the bills...

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Posted by bblue on 05-06-2001 05:00 AM:

Wha??

As a Mac User, and a Netscape (well, now I use OmniWeb) User, I have to say I downright love Flash. I love how easy it is to use, I love how flexible the media abilities are, and I love how I can create special scripting affects, and not worry about it looking awesome on some browsers, and crappy on others.

Yes, there is a mess of ugly Flash websites out there, but I think if used right, it turns the web, into my mind, what it SHOULD be.

Feedback on this site: pockettoons.cjb.net while you're at it. I made it. There's no reason I used Flash over HTML with the exception that it adds life to the site.

I don't think it's the force that rids the world of creativity like Powerpoint, *cough hack!* either. It's difficult enough (and plenty expensive... yeesh!) to almost-successfully rid itself of the dummies who use it to trash the web.

In my Plug-In-O-Rama rating, Flash placed second, just behind Apple's Quicktime, which currently is the most versatile & USEFUL program/format in the world. Hell, it even integrates WITH Flash!

I think Flash has some disadvantages (mainly those of you with Stone-Age computers) but I'm on a nearly 3-year old iMac, and I have no trouble with Flash content.

Html makes the statement, Flash gives it the exclamation point, in my opinion. Being a fan of FlashTainment (back from the days of the Elian-Whazzup gig http://www.bonrop.net ) , I respect any website that sensibly uses Flash well. (meaning, they didn't use it to write an entire article, site, etc.)

And if you actually want to reach everyone, go with Flash, unless you're gonna go strict with HTML. (iCab's a great browser to test this out with.) Chances are, you'll use some internet-explorer only code, and leave those of us who are NOT under Microsoft's curse in the dark.

(P.S.)
RealPlayer and WM Player placed last for media content. Now they simply suck.

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Posted by dalamar70 on 05-06-2001 10:20 AM:

I think the only Flash I saw on pockettoons was on the intro screen. The minor problem is that every time I return to the home page I have to sit through the "loading..." and animation. But aside from that, finding Flash on a site dedicated to "toons" is not really surprising or unwarranted.

Posted by bblue on 05-06-2001 09:07 PM:

You really should have NO reason to returning to the front page, unless you're visiting the site again. I used flash pretty sparingly.

And those of us with nice browsers will pick up the "return" code. (OmniWeb) which keeps you from going through that entire process!

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Posted by dalamar70 on 05-06-2001 11:36 PM:

I pressed "home" because some sites bring you to a "news" page or something first, not the main home. That's what I figured happened on the pockettoons site, since I only saw "download now" instead of an intro to the site. (People who don't know what Tealmovie is could get pretty confused!)

I also find pressing "back" an intuitive and continuous way for me to figure out where I've been on a site or how I got there... that leads back to home pages quite often.

As to making web pages targetted at specific browsers, well that's your choice!

Again Flash seems natural for a "toon" page, but I think the above problems would be annoying if they happened on any other sites.

Posted by recordond on 05-07-2001 04:04 AM:

When I voted I said HTML/PHP because you want the site to be accesable to all users and to be easy to show information. This is not to saw that this is not possible to do with flash. When I build a site I either like to do all HTML or all Flash and not intermingle the two because then it makes it so that some people can see parts of the site and not all of it. I also make a intro page before the flash site, on some sites, saying that the site uses flash and give a link to get the flash player or the option to view and HTML site. I personally love Flash when it is done right and when it is used with a purpose. If someone is going to use Flash on a site just to show off then it is a waste of my bandwidth!

One really good flash site is http://www.fraboom.com which was made by Flying Rhinoceros http://www.flyingrhino.com
I have also seen flash movies that are really neat. I saw someone who had made about a five minute video to accompany a song.

Posted by namja on 05-22-2001 06:12 AM:

Make both.

Use HTML as default. Then make a link on the main page for a Flash option.

Posted by gbgood on 05-22-2001 04:20 PM:

I'm so grateful that most Flash sites show a 'skip intro' button...Get me to the info!

Flash is almost always a 'commercial', tv-style.

I DO like instructional, read practical, Flash. ie tutorials like on dreamweaver, and the visor 360 site mentioned already.

I DO like Flash where is necessary, like on a cartoon or film site.

I DON'T like Flash when it's just a bunch of colored spheres flying around with pounding free muzak.
I've got different drugs for that.

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