VisorCentral.com - Visor Prices Drop AGAIN!

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Posted by Yorick on 02-20-2002 05:57 PM:

Originally posted by mrjoec
Apple is beginning to target customers outside of its loyal small base.
Actually, that's been the taget for the past several years. That's what the intention was behind the first iMac, in 1998. (or '97, I forget.)

But if you get past the marketing lingo and listen to what Jobs himself has said, you realize that the end goal is not to target ALL of the Windows users, but a small, easily convertible group of them that Apple can keep.
Jobs keeps talking about being a digital hub. The goal, from everything I've read, seen and heard, is to get people who want more from their computer experience. Not necessarily Windows users.
That's just my opinion, which isn't the same as yours, but hey! That's why we go to forums, right? to learn and grow by hearing and discussing dissenting opinions!

And the group-think mentality that Dell is banking on is sort of like pop music. When was the last time you heard a Thompson Twins song on the radio? Or Hootie and the Blowfish? How about Motely Crue? These bands sold millions of records, but now most people would be embarrassed to be caught with their CDs. They were extraordinarily successful for a year or two, but the following year they were all flipping burgers at the local Jack in the Box.

If you want to find out how good a band really is, check them out when they're making their 14th album. If enough people are still listening to you after that long, then you must have captured your audience on an emotional level that few bands can. Then you've earned the title of "Artist" instead of "one hit wonder."
Hall & Oates were really big in the 70's and 80's, and have about 20 albums to their names. They were once the most popular pop duo ever. But they don't get played on the radio anymore either.
There was a period in the 1980's and early 1990's when it was extremely rare to hear the Beatles on the radio, at least in my area. They only have 13 albums, and their sound changed and evolved over time.
I'm not trying to smack around your analog, but it has a few holes.

Now look at companies like Apple. Thirty years later, and still chugging along nicely.
25 years, actually. Apple Computer became a company as of April 1, 1976, per Apple-history.com

They also don't cater to cheap people. I think that's the thing that upsets PC people the most about Apple. They can't understand brand loyalty. They blow it off, calling Apple fans Mac Zealots! or making insinuations about Religion. But there's no hocus pocus going on there. It's a simple matter of capturing that minority of people in the world who are willing to pay a little extra to get something better. And then making sure you always give them something better.
I agree with you completely here. I got the same kind of "religion" grief when I had an Amiga, even though dollars-to-donts it was the best computer at the time for what I wanted to do with one, just like the Mac is the best computer now for what I want to do.

I guess it depends on your definition of success. Personally, I'd rather be a multi-billion dollar, relatively successful corporation for fifty years or more than the number one corporation for a few years, then have to close my doors in bankruptcy when my cheap customer base runs to the next best thing.
Company longevity leads to brand loyalty, which leads to future sales. I agree. The majority of my home electornics are from Panasonic, because I know them, I trust them to have quality products (I've never been disappointed), and I know they're not going away anytime soon. Unless they get enroned, of course.

I think Handspring is losing sight of this. And that worries me, because at one time, I felt a great deal of loyalty to them.
All this price slashing bugs me as well, because when I got my Visor last year it semed like it was a good product and that the company was going places. now, not so much.

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Posted by javadisciple on 02-20-2002 07:27 PM:

Re: Visor Prices Drop AGAIN!

quote:
Originally posted by xeyeder
I can see prices dropping after a few months, but every couple of weeks is getting ridiculous.

I understand your frustration. I bought a Visor Pro only to have it drop 20 bucks two weeks later... Oh well..

I just hope they continue to make Visors in light of Donna's statements. Personally I have no interest in a Treo at all. If they continue with that path I may end up switching to Sony or Handera.

__________________
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Posted by Toby on 02-20-2002 08:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mrjoec
Thanks for proving my point.

Your point doesn't seem to have been clear then. There was nothing aggrssive about my post unless you're projecting something into it. I simply disagree with many of your assertions.

quote:
And I'm willing, by the way, to bet you my first born son that Apple won't have an iMac with an even bigger screen by Christmas.

Don't know...don't particularly care. I simply said I wouldn't be surprised to see one. I wouldn't be surprised not to see one either of course. OTOH, I would be extremely surprised _not_ to see a comparable machine with a bigger flat panel from a Wintel maker.

quote:
You're right. Apple is beginning to target customers outside of its loyal small base. But if you get past the marketing lingo and listen to what Jobs himself has said, you realize that the end goal is not to target ALL of the Windows users, but a small, easily convertible group of them that Apple can keep.

Yeah, about 5%. I never said he was targetting all wintel users.

quote:
The new iMac has already been sold to more than 150,000 people. Many of which were not Apple owners prior to that purchase.

Wonderful. Meanwhile, Dell sold 150,000 computers this morning.

quote:
I'd say the machine is fine as is.

I think it's 'fine' too. It could be better, though.

quote:
Better to make sure those ex-Windows users are happy with their machine than to lose them by offering others something better.

Funny. I'd think it'd be better to get even more ex-Windows users happy by offering them something better. What do I know, though. I only have a degree in business.

quote:
Apple doesn't believe in simply selling someone a computer. They believe in giving someone a better quality of life, so that they'll buy twenty computers over the span of their lives, and have children who will buy their computers, and grandchildren, and so on.

I thought you were trying to cut through all of their spin and marketing lingo.

quote:
You ask if I've bought anything from Dell lately. Of course I haven't. They're worse than Handspring when it comes to dropping prices left and right.

Yes, and they're obviously very successful at it. Thanks for proving my point.

quote:
I understand that they're trying to stay one step ahead of the so-called "PC price war" but they're ultimately shooting themselves in the foot, unless they can afford to lose money long enough for every other company to go belly-up.

Newsflash: Dell is _profitable_. They're not losing money.

quote:
Even then, though, they're going to have 0% customer loyalty.

All the customer surveys I've ever seen disagree with you strongly.

quote:
You buy a computer and EXPECT the price to go down in two weeks. That's sad, if you ask me. I've never bought a computer that had its price dropped less than eight months after its original introduction. If I had, I wouldn't go back and buy another one from the same company.

And the point that I was trying to make is that that's obviously not the normal consumer reaction in the technology sector.

quote:
Dell's success has nothing to do with good marketing by Dell;

That's preposterous. Marketing is definitely not the only (or even the main) reason, but even Dell's annoying 'Steven' ads are quite effective with increasing brand awareness.

quote:
it has everything to do with basic human fear of doing something different from what everyone else does.

As opposed to basic human arrogance in thinking that one has a better solution if only the masses weren't such sheep? That's Marxism 101, not Business 101.

quote:
Once Microsoft loses its stranglehold on the computer industry (which is inevitable eventually�every empire rises and falls) companies like Dell are as good as gone, because people only buy there because they're cheap, and everyone else has one. Catering to cheap people is a great way to get a lot of customers short-term, but it's a lousy way to keep any of them for long.

So what makes you think that a company who can remain profitable only selling to 'cheap sheep' is going out of business? Do you think that the people are likely to change? If they're so scared of doing something different, that seems highly unlikely.

quote:
And the group-think mentality that Dell is banking on is sort of like pop music.

Dell is like a pop radio station? Maybe, it's trendy, ubiquitous, and it's never going to go away.

quote:
When was the last time you heard a Thompson Twins song on the radio?

Last week while scanning the stations.

quote:
Or Hootie and the Blowfish?

Probably about the same time.

quote:
How about Motely Crue?

That would probably be at least a month.

quote:
These bands sold millions of records, but now most people would be embarrassed to be caught with their CDs.

Maybe shallow people would be. I own a couple of Motley Crue cassettes.

quote:
They were extraordinarily successful for a year or two, but the following year they were all flipping burgers at the local Jack in the Box.

Seems to me that Motley Crue was still touring last year.

quote:
If you want to find out how good a band really is, check them out when they're making their 14th album. If enough people are still listening to you after that long, then you must have captured your audience on an emotional level that few bands can.

Umm...by that measure Dell is pretty damned successful. They've been around for quite a while now.

quote:
[...] Now look at companies like Apple. Thirty years later, and still chugging along nicely.

You must have not been paying attention for most of that 'thirty year' time span. It's only since Jobs returned that they've started to recover.

quote:
Sure, they only have 5% of the market, but that 5% isn't going anywhere. Ever. They will eat, breathe, and sleep Mac until the day they die. And they will breed the next generation of loyal followers. Why? Because Apple knows how to keep customers (mid-nineties notwithstanding).

Would that be the mid-nineties where they lost the previous marketshare that they'd 'never' lose?

quote:
They make the best products in their class, and they don't pull stupid price reduction tricks, as other computer makers do.

No, they have totally different stupid tricks.

quote:
They also don't cater to cheap people. I think that's the thing that upsets PC people the most about Apple. They can't understand brand loyalty. They blow it off, calling Apple fans Mac Zealots! or making insinuations about Religion.

Meanwhile the Mac 'loyalists' don't understand that PC people understand brand loyalty just as well as they do, and they call the PC people 'sheep' and make insinuations about intelligence.

quote:
But there's no hocus pocus going on there. It's a simple matter of capturing that minority of people in the world who are willing to pay a little extra to get something better. And then making sure you always give them something better.

Do they make the salesmen watch a video for weeks on end while dripping water on their foreheads?

quote:
I guess it depends on your definition of success. Personally, I'd rather be a multi-billion dollar, relatively successful corporation for fifty years or more than the number one corporation for a few years, then have to close my doors in bankruptcy when my cheap customer base runs to the next best thing.

You really don't know anything about business, do you?

quote:
Either way, I'd end up a billionaire for life, but I'd feel much better knowing that my company did right by its people, and stayed alive as a result. I'd want a legacy to pass on to my kids. I'd want to have some kind of pride in what I had done.

Maybe we should agree to check back in five years when Jobs leaves Apple again and they go into the toilet.

quote:
You're right about one thing.

Probably more than one, but you've already got your conclusions decided upon, so I won't expect you to grok the others.

quote:
We are talking Psychology here. And even more so Sociology. But as far as I'm concerned, that's the cornerstone of good business. He or she that understands the human animal that is your customer base, and understands how that animal will react to your every move and the moves of all the other animals around him will be the most successful company in the long haul. I think Handspring is losing sight of this. And that worries me, because at one time, I felt a great deal of loyalty to them.

One should never feel too much loyalty to an inanimate object which exists for the sole reason of making money. But then again, I've actually had that business training which you claim to think is so valuable.

Posted by Toby on 02-20-2002 09:09 PM:

Re: Re: Visor Prices Drop AGAIN!

quote:
Originally posted by javadisciple
I understand your frustration. I bought a Visor Pro only to have it drop 20 bucks two weeks later... Oh well..

So do I. I bought a Visor Edge only to have it drop $100 in a month. And then another $50. And then another $50. That's life. I bought a 1996 Truck, and I'm sure it dropped a couple thousand dollars the second I drove it off the lot. Catch is that it still does what it did when I bought it. Same thing with the Edge.

quote:
I just hope they continue to make Visors in light of Donna's statements. Personally I have no interest in a Treo at all. If they continue with that path I may end up switching to Sony or Handera.

My next PDA will more than likely be a Handera. Sony drops products far too often for the level of support that they supposedly provide. I also can't seem to find a compelling reason to fork over the cash for a PocketPC. The iPaq 3600s seem to be getting pretty attractive in price, but they have the same problem that the Edge does: expansion destroys their aesthetics.

Posted by MarkEagle on 02-20-2002 10:08 PM:

Ok, peoples... this one's gettin' banished to OT.

__________________

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Posted by Toby on 02-20-2002 10:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
Ok, peoples... this one's gettin' banished to OT.

There goes the neighborhood.

Posted by mrjoec on 02-20-2002 11:42 PM:

Perfectly understandable, Mark.

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Posted by Toby on 02-28-2002 04:00 PM:

Incidentally, as a follow-up to Apple's 'giving their customers what they want', and their 'savvy' business practices, I read an interesting little news article today. OK, so Apple took 150,000 orders. It looks like there are going to be 140,000+ rather perturbed Apple customers soon. I take back what I said. If this is how well they were prepared from a manufacturing standpoint, I don't see a bigger flat panel on an iMac by _next_ Christmas.

Posted by Toby on 07-11-2002 03:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mrjoec
[...] And I'm willing, by the way, to bet you my first born son that Apple won't have an iMac with an even bigger screen by Christmas. [...]

Wonderful, now I'll have two people's first-borns! MWUAHAHAHAHA!!!!11!!1!!

Posted by K. Cannon on 07-11-2002 10:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
Hall & Oates were really big in the 70's and 80's, and have about 20 albums to their names. They were once the most popular pop duo ever. But they don't get played on the radio anymore either.

Oh yeah they do, man!!...and if I'm lucky enough to have my sunroof open on a sunny day and for "Rich Girl" to come on the radio, I am likely not to drive directly to my destination, but tool about until the song is over. Of course, I would do the same for the Crue's "Smokin' in the Boy's Room" remake.

P.S. Hootie and the Blowfish (however you feel about them) are from here and are all nice fellows.

Oh, and I understand that price drops are a fact of technology, but I understand the frustration they bring.

Kelley

Posted by Yorick on 07-12-2002 07:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Yorick
Hall & Oates were really big in the 70's and 80's, and have about 20 albums to their names. They were once the most popular pop duo ever. But they don't get played on the radio anymore either.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh yeah they do, man!!...and if I'm lucky enough to have my sunroof open on a sunny day and for "Rich Girl" to come on the radio, I am likely not to drive directly to my destination, but tool about until the song is over. Of course, I would do the same for the Crue's "Smokin' in the Boy's Room" remake.

I've been hearing them lately too. On the radio that is.

I just got the Behind The Music cd last month, so I've been hearing them on my stereo more often. In between System of a Down and Johnny Cash.

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Posted by dampeoples on 07-12-2002 07:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick

In between System of a Down and Johnny Cash.

I like it - diversity.

Posted by Yorick on 07-12-2002 07:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Wonderful, now I'll have two people's first-borns!

rap me for bein' dumb, but whose besides mrjoec's?

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Posted by Toby on 07-12-2002 12:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
rap me for bein' dumb, but whose besides mrjoec's?

adimiron's. Of course, I could have counted my own, but I already have her.

Posted by swendor on 07-12-2002 01:52 PM:

Toby:
Wow! I've never seen anyone reply to a post 4 months later.
How'd you come by digging this old thing up?

PS-Don't wait 'til November to reply, please.

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Posted by K. Cannon on 07-12-2002 02:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick

I've been hearing them lately too. On the radio that is.
I just got the Behind The Music cd last month, so I've been hearing them on my stereo more often.

Now, if it's that horrible "Method of Modern Love" then I am likely to stomp on the gas a hurry to where I am going.

Posted by Toby on 07-12-2002 03:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by swendor
Wow! I've never seen anyone reply to a post 4 months later.

I think The Ramble has had a few.

quote:
How'd you come by digging this old thing up?

Part of my job is to keep up with current computing technology, so I get e-newletters from the various 'news' sites. Yesterday, there was a bit about Apple coming out with bigger flat panels on the iMac. I remembered predicting them doing just that if they really were after getting Windows users to switch (along with mrjoec's betting that I was wrong), so I just did a quick search of posts with my name and iMac in them. adimiron's promise of a first-born the day before was just serendipitous humor value.

quote:
PS-Don't wait 'til November to reply, please.

Actually, I might reply around Christmas time, because that's a possible date for getting my wife one of the bigger flat panel iMacs.

Posted by Yorick on 07-12-2002 07:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
Now, if it's that horrible "Method of Modern Love" then I am likely to stomp on the gas a hurry to where I am going.

M-E-T H-O-D O-F L-O-V-E
*snicker*

ah, the 80's ...

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Posted by K. Cannon on 07-16-2002 05:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick

M-E-T H-O-D O-F L-O-V-E
*snicker*

ah, the 80's ...

I've been enjoying VH1's Top 100 One Hit Wonders, although I can (sigh) name more than the one song for many of the '80's groups.

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