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Posted by bkbk on 06-06-2001 10:12 AM:

Hey, I'm includng a "lazy-man's avatar." (I'll find out "the right way" when I get around to it. It's one of the Palm-sized shots I recently took w/my buddy's Prism.)

No offense taken, bblue.

The prob. w/
"temptation"
"desire"
"rewards" (and people / genders who perceive THEMSELVES to be "your reward" ... uh, or "God's Gift," in the vernacular [vocab. # 96!])
"delaying gratification"
etc....
... is ...
MANIPULATION.

Prob. the saddest fact of LIFE is that it's pretty obvious that the genders DO NOT DESIRE SEX EQUALLY.
This kind of turns men into sexual slaves.
And women, probably HONESTLY, "do not understand" when men "claim" that the HUNGER for sex is like the hunger for food.
Sadly, you WON'T DIE if you don't get sex, like you will if you don't get food -- you'll only WISH you were dead.

A slighly more perfect analogy would be:
HOW WOULD YOU FEEL if a race of beings CONTROLLED ALL THE CIGARETTES, even though they were not smokers;
And A DIFF. RACE was DESPERATELY KNOWN TO NEED CIGARETTES (it's easy to see ... BECAUSE they are so DESPERATE).
But, instead of HELPING the DESPERATE race ... the other race ACTUALLY USED THIS INFO. AND THEIR DESPERATION AGAINST THEM???

How are you supposed to FEEL about that?

Ah, this opens another big can of worms I don't have time to type about right now, so I'll say goodnight at this time.

__________________
"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds." -- Albert Einstein

Posted by Toby on 06-06-2001 11:04 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can't help myself...

quote:
Originally posted by bkbk
[...] I tend to fall back on John Gray's "Mars & Venus" materials [...]


The idea behind Gray's book is flawed, though. It ignores one simple thing. Yes, men and women on average are different, but not all men are the same and not all women are the same.

Posted by BobbyMike on 06-06-2001 12:30 PM:

Get busy for a couple of days and see what happens!

Originally posted by bkbk :
"[...] I tend to fall back on John Gray's "Mars & Venus" materials [...]"

Then answered by Toby:
"The idea behind Gray's book is flawed, though. It ignores one simple thing. Yes, men and women on average are different, but not all men are the same and not all women are the same."

I agree with you, Toby, on this one. The book makes some valid observations that work in GENERAL, but following the info slavishly can lead to assumption (and we all know what happens when anyone assumes!). People have always tried to "box" others in based on gender, race, sexual persuasion, time of birth, etc. It could be because we're lazy as a rule (that means in general), or because we like to secretly "go against the grain" and need boundaries to push against. Another answer is that people generally like to have things explained to them, you know, how and why things work.

Back to the "sin" of pornography. If you're a Christian, utilizing porn is a sin (one among many), if you're not a Christian I can't say what it is. If you later come to Christ after any sin, your past is forgotten and you start you life anew. It's pretty much useless to tell someone that they're "bad", or sinning. Many people who wear the title of Christian on their shirts seem to forgot that as Christians we're not supposed to judge one another (remember the woman being stoned for being a prostitute- those weren't Christians doing the stoning, Jesus was pretty peeved about it and said "... let who among you that has not sinned throw the first stone...). Long and short of it is that if you're a Christian and you focus on what everybody is doing wrong, you're not abiding by the words of Jesus. Hard to be a Christian and not follow Christ. (BTW, I once had a "Christian" tell me that he "followed the Old Testament word by word, but didn't have much use for the New Testament, because it was too easy on people...", I was so stunned by that I couldn't even reply!)

Porn use in a relationship is a thorny issue. If both parties agree it's a good thing, I guess that it's a non-issue. Usually someone doesn't like it so it can be a problem in several ways- someone hides their use (shame, shame, shame!) or someone is unhappy (pain, pain, pain!).
If you feel the need to hide part of yourself from others, what does that say? That you're a hypocrite? That you're afraid? That society is rigid and doesn't allow for too many differences? I can't say I know the answer to that.

For my part I have had girlfriends that "clicked" sexually with me in every way (and mostly that was the extent of the deepness of the relationship), but I stuck with the woman that "completed" me in every other way. Sure it can be frustrating to not want to do things at the same time (not just sex!), but that's part of being in a relationship. I've heard it said before, and I believe it to be true - If there is no conflict in a relationship, someone is superfluous. Relationships are all about conflict resolution. (if you're childless and single, I'll understand your disbelief)

Bkbk wrote:
"Prob. the saddest fact of LIFE is that it's pretty obvious that the genders DO NOT DESIRE SEX EQUALLY."

I hope you're not serious about that. I can think of alot of worse things then thwarted sexual desire.

__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Posted by Toby on 06-06-2001 01:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
[...] If you're a Christian, utilizing porn is a sin (one among many), if you're not a Christian I can't say what it is. [...]


A waste of time and energy, IMO.

quote:
Bkbk wrote:
"Prob. the saddest fact of LIFE is that it's pretty obvious that the genders DO NOT DESIRE SEX EQUALLY."

I hope you're not serious about that. I can think of alot of worse things then thwarted sexual desire.


heh...yeah, if that's the saddest thing in one's life, one should be pretty happy.

Posted by K. Cannon on 06-06-2001 02:02 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can't help myself...

quote:
Originally posted by bkbk

I wanted to respond to many of the last 10 or so responses either you made or were made to you <SNIP> But I thought many of the answers given were excellent, so I also didn't have to bother.


I, too, thought the responses were excellent and appreciate everyone's input.

quote:
when people were trying to pretend MEN AND WOMEN ARE THE SAME


Obviously, men and women are different in physical,mental, and emotional ways. But, as the point is later made by Toby, men are different from other men in physical, mental and emotional ways and women are different from other women in physical, mental, and emotional ways. (In other words, your argument assumes that Bill Gates and Bill Clinton have the same libido...)

Saying that "men like sex and women don't; therefore, women use sex to manipulate men" (yes, this is an oversimplification of your argument about the cigarette mongers) is (as I'm sure you realize) quite a generalization.(<----UNDERSTATMENT) And not true in every case, but probably true in some.

(Oh my, I've taken up bkbk's writing style!! )

As bkbk suggested: Does it boil down to "are men naturally monogamous?" Is it a question of men are predisposed to mate as often as possible? Is porn society's way of trying to appease man's natural "need" to mate with different people? Or is the whole "men aren't monogamous" argument society's way of excusing behavior? Interesting questions.

Posted by Toby on 06-06-2001 02:25 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can't help myself...

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
[...] Or is the whole "men aren't monogamous" argument society's way of excusing behavior? [...]


I think this nails it on the head (or I evolved from wolves instead of apes ).

Posted by JHromadka on 06-06-2001 03:22 PM:

Wink Re: Woazza!!

quote:
Originally posted by bblue
... While I cannot say this from a first-hand experience, you will most likely become jaded (vocab word of the day! ) if you have it too often. ...


But oh to be the guinea pig for that testing!

__________________
James Hromadka
Old Friend

Posted by dick-richardson on 06-06-2001 03:29 PM:

So is masturbation considered extramarital sex? I agree wholeheartedly that any thought that men can't be monogamous is highly erroneous.

K, in ORDR to adpt BKBK's writng SYLE, you nd to abrviat EVERYTHING and bltntly ignr ALL frmtng styles with the poss. excptn of the CAPS LCK.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by K. Cannon on 06-06-2001 03:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
K, in ORDR to adpt BKBK's writng SYLE, you nd to abrviat EVERYTHING and bltntly ignr ALL frmtng styles with the poss. excptn of the CAPS LCK.


Yeah, sometimes it's a challenge to get through bkbk's posts--but I will say that often there is something in them that makes me think...or gives me a headache (it varies...)

Posted by yardie on 06-06-2001 04:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
So is masturbation considered extramarital sex? I agree wholeheartedly that any thought that men can't be monogamous is highly erroneous.

K, in ORDR to adpt BKBK's writng SYLE, you nd to abrviat EVERYTHING and bltntly ignr ALL frmtng styles with the poss. excptn of the CAPS LCK.


Strictly speaking, Masturbation is considered extra-marital sex if you are looking or thinking about someone other than your wife.

Now that this thread has developed into sex and sexes I thought I would trhough something out..

Why are men more into porn than women? Aren't the needs for sex and fulfilment pretty much the same?

Why do some women think that eating cholocate is better than sex? (I have actually spoekn to a few women that claim this..don't think they were joking).

If a married man is looking at porn..is he cheating on his wife?

Posted by homer on 06-06-2001 04:25 PM:

quote:
Strictly speaking, Masturbation is considered extra-marital sex if you are looking or thinking about someone other than your wife.


Huh?

quote:
Why are men more into porn than women? Aren't the needs for sex and fulfilment pretty much the same?


Nope. Not at all.

Men tend to be more physically into sex, women more into the emotional/psychological side of it.

Men read Playboy, women read Romance Novels.

This is a generalization, of course.

quote:
Why do some women think that eating cholocate is better than sex?


I'm a male and, given the choice, I'd often choose a giant Brownie over sex.

Sex is good. Food is better.

quote:
If a married man is looking at porn..is he cheating on his wife?


It depends on if he is having sex with another woman while he is looking at the porn.

VisorCentral: All about Visors. And discussion of societal norms and behaviors in regards to sex.

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by PDAENVY on 06-06-2001 04:58 PM:

Should there be a 18+ forum for this discussion?

__________________
Jeff

Posted by Toby on 06-06-2001 06:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
Why do some women think that eating cholocate is better than sex? (I have actually spoekn to a few women that claim this..don't think they were joking).


Chocolate stimulates the same areas of the brain according to several studies. Since women in general are more in touch with the "mental" side of sex (rather than purely physiomechanical perspective), it's quite possible that they're feeling practically the same sensations. And considering that chocolate doesn't involve some of the other peripheral entanglements that a relationship can, it would be easy to believe that some consider it "better".

Posted by Yorick on 06-06-2001 06:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by PDAENVY
Should there be a 18+ forum for this discussion?

I don't think so.
It's just a social discussion. No-one's posting pictures (yet). Thankfully it's still civil.

__________________
The light at the end of your tunnel has been disconnected due to non-payment. Please remit funds immediately for restoration of hope.

Posted by homer on 06-06-2001 06:31 PM:

quote:
Should there be a 18+ forum for this discussion?


Wouldn't that imply that only people over the age of 18 think, discuss, or partake in sex? ;o)

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by K. Cannon on 06-06-2001 06:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by homer


Men tend to be more physically into sex, women more into the emotional/psychological side of it.


Women may be thought to be more into the emotional/psychological side of the relationship, but sex is in and of itself a physical activity. No amount of emoting is going to bring a woman (or a man) sexual satisfaction.

quote:
Men read Playboy, women read Romance Novels.


Romance novels? Like the ones with Fabio on the cover?? Blecch!

Men "read" Playboy???

quote:
This is a generalization, of course.


Oh, okay!

quote:
I'm a male and, given the choice, I'd often choose a giant Brownie over sex.


Giant Brownie with ice cream? Otherwise, I'm taking the other.

quote:
VisorCentral: All about Visors. And discussion of societal norms and behaviors in regards to sex.


Yah Visor Central! Where else can I have a serious discussion about this with people whom I (anonymously) know to have brains and thoughtful opinions?

Posted by K. Cannon on 06-06-2001 06:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie

Why are men more into porn than women? Aren't the needs for sex and fulfilment pretty much the same?


Your first sentance could be read two ways:
a. men care more for porn than they do women
b. men care more for porn than women do

I'm guessing you mean b. And I guess (without raising a stereotypical ruckus) society "okays" (or sort of okays) men looking at porn, going to strip clubs for business meetings; having mistresses, etc; women interested in sex are "loose". (I know, VERY stereotypical statement.)

I'm not particularly interested in up-close and personal pictures of someone I don't know (read as: not my husband) and I am not really interested in watching some people I don't know have sex. Whether that stems from "nature" or "nurture," I don't know.

quote:

If a married man is looking at porn..is he cheating on his wife?


Hmm...not physically, but mentally maybe? of course, if she doesn't care, then no.

Posted by linguas on 06-06-2001 07:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
And considering that chocolate doesn't involve some of the other peripheral entanglements that a relationship can, it would be easy to believe that some consider it "better".

Couldn't the same argument be made for men's view of porn? (Although I am in no way implying that there is anything "better" about it.)

__________________
Eschew obfuscation!

Posted by Yorick on 06-06-2001 07:26 PM:

quote:

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by homer


Men tend to be more physically into sex, women more into the emotional/psychological side of it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by K. Cannon
Women may be thought to be more into the emotional/psychological side of the relationship, but sex is in and of itself a physical activity. No amount of emoting is going to bring a woman (or a man) sexual satisfaction.

valid statement, though a few of my girlfriends have felt we were emotionally closer after we engaged in sexual activity, while I didn't.
Your milage may vary.

quote:

Romance novels? Like the ones with Fabio on the cover?? Blecch!

well, yes. My sister, for one, actively collects them.

quote:

Men "read" Playboy???

only for the articles!

quote:

Giant Brownie with ice cream? Otherwise, I'm taking the other.

I could go either way!
(but then, I'm currently single)

__________________
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Posted by Yorick on 06-06-2001 07:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
Why are men more into porn than women? Aren't the needs for sex and fulfilment pretty much the same?

Each person's sex drive is different. If you are fortunate to find a partner close to your own, hallelujah.


quote:

If a married man is looking at porn..is he cheating on his wife?

It's cheating if it's furtive/secretive and potentially detrimental to the relationship. If wife or girlfriend knows about it and doens't disapprove, I'd say it's not cheating, but otherwise ...
Like cheating on a test: you're only hurting yourself in the long run. (IMO)

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