VisorCentral.com - What is it with discussion boards

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VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
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-- What is it with discussion boards (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=14027)

Posted by Toby on 04-16-2001 07:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
I don't know if they do or not---maybe I'll try to register with a different name. I can use that one for obnoxious posts and K. Cannon for the others.

*shrug* I just use this one for both. Much more efficient that way.

Posted by Toby on 04-16-2001 08:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by agraham999
I never really participated in discussion boards after a bad experience on the Dell Support site about two years ago. I got on there with a legitimate question, I and got chided and insulted by complete strangers who were also giving other people a hard time just for kicks.

This behavior isn't really limited to discussion boards. Anytime you encounter "experts" there's a chance for their treating "newbies" poorly. Ever seen a mechanic deal with somebody who doesn't know much about cars?

quote:
Once I started writing I decided to start participating in these groups and I eventually started doing it across the web...but I keep noticing the same stuff.

Many humans tend to notice only those things that confirm their preferred belief system. Overall, I'd say that interaction on these things aren't much different than in the real world. Only the devices that people use to intimidate change.

quote:
Many people don't respect anyone's opinion.{...}

Again, how is this different from the "real world"?

quote:
I wonder why it is that people on discussion boards feel they can be rude, insulting, degrading and unpleasant.

Because they are used to having people be rude, insulting, degrading, and unpleasant towards them in real life, probably. When the playing field changes, the rules change. That's one thing I've always found fascinating about the 'net. It turns the traditional societal pecking order on its head. I find it interesting to see how others cope with it.

quote:
You can't even have a good debate half the time without one person calling another an idiot.

Well, I hate to be redundant, but again, I see little difference between this and the real world. Perhaps they may not use the word "idiot" always, but generally most real world debates tend towards that direction anyway.

quote:
It seems to me that with the anonymity of the web, many people have a certain bravado that they wouldn't normally have in person.

Sure, and most people that would normally have that bravado in person lose it because its foundation disappears.

quote:
I have met very few people in my life that were as rude in a live discussion as in some forums. I am six foot, 240 pounds...I doubt that many people would give me any trouble or be disrespectful in public.

Why should you need physical intimidation to get across an intellectual point? Ever consider that you're getting by more easily in real life than you should be because people are afraid to point out holes in your reasoning?

quote:
I certainly respect the opinions of other people in forums all over the web. So why is it we've lost our civility?

We haven't. Those who are civil in the real world are usually going to remain so. Those who are uncivil by nature are going to reveal themselves more easily.

quote:
It is computers? Is it staring and dealing with computer frustrations that make us take it out on each other?

Unlikely. The computer is only the vehicle...the tool. Those frustrations are likely there in your real world interactions as well.

quote:
Seriously...why is it that you can't write anything that doesn't get completely dissed even if the fact of the matter is...we are all just discussing our opinions?

Because we all have opinions. Also, we all arrive at our opinions on different bases. If I say that the sky is green, should that remain unchallenged simply because I claim it's my opinion? The only thing one can do to mitigate this is to make sure that the foundations and logic of one's argument are as clear and cogent as possible before setting it loose in the wilderness, because once it is there, it should be able to withstand any offense sent its way.

quote:
I generally try not to predict the future...but I do like to discuss technology and debate things. However, none of us are in any position to post our opinions and predictions as anything other than that. When I write an op/ed piece, it is just that, an opinion.

Perhaps, but you have to realize that when you publish something as part of an "authoritative" entity, then people will hold your words to a higher standard than one of their peers. Also, people are quite justified in questioning the bases of your opinion since this is the closest one can get to "proving" or "disproving" an opinion.

quote:
The simple fact that people can get so irate about technology is ludicrous.

Some might say the same about anyone getting enthused about technology. However, without those enthusiasts, places like VisorCentral would have no raison d'�tre.

quote:
It isn't food...it isn't religion, it isn't even politics. Nobody is debating your right to have an iPaq or a Palm. So why do we often see so much frustration? What a waste of time. Is it so hard to say to someone, I agree or I disagree...without saying their idea is stupid?

Do you realize that by taking this position, you are saying that someone else's idea (that their platform of choice is "better", regardless of how well founded that opinion may be) is stupid?

quote:
Sigh.

Does anyone else fell this way?

Not particularly.

Posted by K. Cannon on 04-16-2001 08:34 PM:

Hmmm

quote:
Originally posted by Toby

*shrug* I just use this one for both.

Toby:
Was that a "sympathetic" shrug, one done with mouth in half-smile, or a "piss-off" shrug, one done with arrogant expression on face?

Hard to tell from the computer screen.

Kelley

Posted by Toby on 04-16-2001 09:25 PM:

Re: Hmmm

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
Was that a "sympathetic" shrug, one done with mouth in half-smile, or a "piss-off" shrug, one done with arrogant expression on face?

Basically an understanding, but "I don't know about that, since I'd just handle it this way..." kinda *shrug*. I wasn't even aware that there was an arrogant, "piss-off" shrug. If I meant that, I'd have said "piss-off". I think it's fairly obvious by now that I don't exactly hold back from expressing myself.

quote:
Hard to tell from the computer screen.

Usually is. *shrug*

Posted by K. Cannon on 04-16-2001 09:28 PM:

Re: Re: Hmmm

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Usually is. *shrug*

LOL

Posted by LanMan on 04-17-2001 04:17 PM:

I�ve always liked the people at VC. They are very respectful of each other, and helpful. I would like to see this trend continue.

I only participate on two boards: VC and MCSELive. The MCSE board is geared toward helping users pass MS certification tests. It is not a braindump site, but rather offers genuine aid. That board has an interesting concept in which their �moderators� are called �mentors�. Perhaps VC should gather a panel of experts labeled �mentors� to offer their educated opinions. I already follow several long-time posters, because I know that they always have something informative to say. However, the �mentor� label might immediately show a �newbie� who will offer educated advice.

MCSELive also shows the word �guru� in users signatures when they have posted over a certain number of messages. I guess that that means that Mark_Eagle has a way to go before he gets a �guru� label.

Just a thought.

__________________
<><

Posted by MarkEagle on 04-17-2001 11:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by LanMan
That board has an interesting concept in which their �moderators� are called �mentors�. Perhaps VC should gather a panel of experts labeled �mentors� to offer their educated opinions.

We already have a panel of "mentors"... it is, in my opinion, the collective group of VisorCentral members...

I firmly believe it's what sets us apart from the others... one big, happy family! (no, I won't sing miradu2000's VC rendition of the Barney song

)

quote:
Originally posted by LanMan
I guess that that means that Mark_Eagle has a way to go before he gets a �guru� label.

Um... I'm not sure if I want to be known as a "guru".

Even "mentor" doesn't sit well with me... I prefer to just be myself... helping others as I have been helped myself.

On the other hand, if the "guru" or "mentor" titles come with a 6-figure salary...

__________________

God bless America, my home sweet home...

Posted by ThirdMan on 04-17-2001 11:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle

On the other hand, if the "guru" or "mentor" titles come with a 6-figure salary...

With all of the layoffs (here in Austin), "guru" will get you six figures... if you count the two on the other side of the decimal!

For once I am glad that my company is not cutting edge. We have a good ol' fashioned boring product that'll never go IPO, but will never go away, either.

I am (in an effort to steer this post back to PDAs) trying to convince them to port one of our databases to tinyDB or somesuch. We sell a paper copy of this particular data for about the cost of a Visor Deluxe or a Solo + flash. I'd even volunteer to do the work on the side if they'd buy me a Platinum + 16mb Hiagawhatever.

Sorry... what were we talking about again?

__________________
--
ThirdMan

Posted by Rob on 04-17-2001 11:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby

Again, how is this different from the "real world"?

...

We haven't. Those who are civil in the real world are usually going to remain so. Those who are uncivil by nature are going to reveal themselves more easily.

I think you answered your own question. If you are correct in asserting that uncivil people will 'reveal themselves more easily' in anonymous on-line forums, then that's the difference! While I agree there are certainly arrogant, pompous, self-righteous, and/or loud-mouthed people out here in the 'real world', there are many other people who might feel like being so, but are constrained by convention, social pressure, etc. Because anonymity makes them feel free from responsibility or real-world recriminations, they are more likely to be rude or obnoxious online (or when writing graffiti on bathroom walls, etc.). It's a double-edged sword. Widespread connectivity with anonymous participants encourages the free exchange of ideas and expression (and rumors, and leaked photos of upcoming PDAs...), but some of that expression will inevitably be rude, moronic, hostile, prejudiced, uninformed, etc.

One idea about how to change this, which I think has merit, is to have people 'register' (still anonymously) for accounts/handles and accumulate a 'reputation' (whether via points/rank or some other method). If you combine this with a way to filter out posts from those with a low reputation score (and of course, a realistic way of improving reputation), you would give people an incentive to stay civil while having a way to opt-out of hearing from those who do not (yet) have a good reputation (think about eBay feedback or /. moderation). Not perfect, but it's pretty workable for individual sites/forums (it's probably too hard to implement this Internet-wide)

Posted by timmins on 04-18-2001 11:04 PM:

I actually want to apologize. I think my message posting has gotten the best of me and I actually feel that after reading this post I never posted to begin with.

I found this website just barely a month after purchasing my Visor on the beautiful Sept. 22 inaugaration. It is obvious by my post numbers that I don't post as much as others but I can tell you that I have probably read almost every posting. I log on numerous times per day and always look in excitement for new reviews/news/message postings.

I value this website. I have actually contemplated starting my own for the general pda fan in recognition of how this is one of my favorite sites.

I agree with you and your recognition of people hiding behind their "terminals and admit I was guilty.

__________________
what?<br>

Posted by BobbyMike on 04-19-2001 03:35 PM:

Just a thought about anybody calling themselves an "expert";
Ex = has been
spurt = drip under pressure

I think on the mentor front we can all pretty much pick our own mentors from the members who post intelligent, thoughtful posts. That's why I've stuck around so long. There seems to be different layers/ strata of society (not meaning to imply above/below, but depth of experience)represented here. I like that, I can learn from others and perhaps even add something of worth. We have formed a community here. If it's to be a free society, I guess we have to include the skunks with the lilys. It's part of being human. At the very least we all have common ground in that we are interested in, if not owners of, Handspring products. Some of us have great people skills, some don't, some of us know tons about tech issues, some of us don't know squat. We can all learn from each other. I don't know if we can all be "one big happy family", but I guess it wouldn't hurt to try!

Michael

__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Posted by Toby on 04-19-2001 04:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rob
I think you answered your own question.

Actually, the question was rhetorical. I wasn't expecting anyone to answer it because I was basically giving the answer later in the post.

quote:
If you are correct in asserting that uncivil people will 'reveal themselves more easily' in anonymous on-line forums, then that's the difference!

I'd have never thought of that.

quote:
While I agree there are certainly arrogant, pompous, self-righteous, and/or loud-mouthed people out here in the 'real world', there are many other people who might feel like being so, but are constrained by convention, social pressure, etc. Because anonymity makes them feel free from responsibility or real-world recriminations, they are more likely to be rude or obnoxious online (or when writing graffiti on bathroom walls, etc.). It's a double-edged sword. Widespread connectivity with anonymous participants encourages the free exchange of ideas and expression (and rumors, and leaked photos of upcoming PDAs...), but some of that expression will inevitably be rude, moronic, hostile, prejudiced, uninformed, etc.

But this is not because the medium has done anything to the people. The people are just more connected. "Some of that expression will inevitably be rude, moronic, hostile, prejudiced, uninformed, etc." because you suddenly have access to so many more people. All of those people were undoubtedly that way before (or at least would have tended towards that behavior).

quote:
One idea about how to change this, which I think has merit, is to have people 'register' (still anonymously) for accounts/handles and accumulate a 'reputation' (whether via points/rank or some other method).

If anonymity is what you're theorizing as facilitating this behavior, then still allowing anonymity isn't likely to change anything. Of course, this doesn't even address the issue that most people aren't going to bother with rating a person unless they are on an extreme of the experience scale (negative or positive - and negatives tend to elicit responses more often, IME).

quote:
If you combine this with a way to filter out posts from those with a low reputation score (and of course, a realistic way of improving reputation), you would give people an incentive to stay civil while having a way to opt-out of hearing from those who do not (yet) have a good reputation (think about eBay feedback or /. moderation). Not perfect, but it's pretty workable for individual sites/forums (it's probably too hard to implement this Internet-wide)

There's already a way to do this on this discussion board. Go to your profile and click on the Edit Ignore List link, and add a person's name. It should expunge their existence from your experience in a most Orwellian fashion.

Posted by dalamar70 on 04-19-2001 07:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby

Go to your profile and click on the Edit Ignore List link, and add a person's name. It should expunge their existence from your experience in a most Orwellian fashion.

The only minor loophole is that portions of that user's posts may still show up, if they get quoted by somebody else.

Posted by Toby on 04-19-2001 08:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dalamar70
The only minor loophole is that portions of that user's posts may still show up, if they get quoted by somebody else.

As they would with a scoring system as was being proposed.

Posted by Rob on 04-19-2001 08:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dalamar70

The only minor loophole is that portions of that user's posts may still show up, if they get quoted by somebody else.

I'm not too worried about that, because often either:
1) The person doing the quoting is highlighting a (rare) good point, or more likely, shooting down some comment from the offensive poster (and usually people are good enough to trim quotes)
OR
2) You can just add the quoter to your ignore list.

Posted by Toby on 04-19-2001 08:59 PM:

BTW, if anyone wants to see a really hilarious example of how silly a message board can get, go to skittles.com and vote on the Green Apply vs. Lime "debate". Visor Central is like a MENSA convention compared to that thing.

Posted by timmins on 04-20-2001 12:47 AM:

Oh my, that message board is terrible... do they not have a moderator.

When I used to work for the BigTen, BigEast sites... we had to hire a high schooler to watch the boards twice a day. Lame job, but the guy had great emails that he sent around the office. Check it out, every so often a fan goes nuts and starts posting some wacky stuff.

__________________
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Posted by Rob on 04-20-2001 01:42 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
BTW, if anyone wants to see a really hilarious example of how silly a message board can get, go to skittles.com and vote on the Green Apply vs. Lime "debate". Visor Central is like a MENSA convention compared to that thing.

...so now we know what Toby does when he's not on the VC boards...

Posted by EricG on 04-20-2001 01:49 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby

There's already a way to do this on this discussion board. Go to your profile and click on the Edit Ignore List link, and add a person's name. It should expunge their existence from your experience in a most Orwellian fashion.

I'd like to see a system generated "poll" of the top 10 most ignored people..

I hope I am not on the list....

__________________
"One of the most important things you learn from the internet is that there is no �them� out there. It�s just an awful lot of �us�." -- Douglas Adams

Posted by Rob on 04-20-2001 01:56 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by EricG
[quote blocked because you have EricG on your ignore list]

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